Author Topic: Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?  (Read 9420 times)

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Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 12:23:29 »
So, I really really like the way my Cherry 8100 (really an 8963) feels. The cherry browns are perfect form me, I really like a more delicate activation force switch, and anything louder than this would be far too loud for what *I* like, nevermind disturbing anyone else. I don't have trouble with accidental keypresses because I don't typically "rest" my fingers on the keys when not typing. I *can* use heavier switches, but I tend to slam them so hard that they bottom out loudly on top of any switch feedback (I learned to type on a non-electric typewriter). It's rough on my fingers and hard on everyone's ears. Strangely I don't have that problem as much on switches that don't feel like they need that kind of force to be used.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the board I'm using is not only not NKRO, but I'm having problems with depressing shift and control simultaneously. The control key is about 1/2 the width of the shift key, and I frequently end up with only the control key registering, probably due to hitting the shift key off center when depressing both of them together. (as an aside, the navigation keys islands being transposed up and in a *very* weird configuration is also a real nuisance, even if those are reprogrammable keys)

What I can't tell is if it's a problem that I'll have with other cherry switch boards with similar key dimensions, if it's just that I have a board with a poor left shift key, or what. I don't really want to go back to my SGI sliders over rubber keyboard that I'd been using since my last MS Ergo failed, but at least for gaming it actually worked better. I suppose I could have both connected and swap between them, but that's not at all what I want to do =/


One option probably seems to be to get an ISO foreign layout board. The small shift key shouldn't have the same issues with my pinky hitting it off center due to the angle needed to hit the control key at the same time. But at the same time I really don't think I'm going to be happy with the ISO enter key shape and the change to the pipe/backslash position. Maybe it's something I would grow to like even more if I'd just give it a chance, though? Plus, in the US, they're often cheaper used than ANSI boards are.

Another is to get an older keyboard with a long control key. Which may require modding in a custom controller, which leaves me a little apprehensive. I'm more the type to play with code than with wires, hot solder, and things that go poof when the wrong current goes past them. I'm sure I could in a pinch, I do have exposure to simple circuits and basic soldering, but I don't really have a lot of tools for that type of thing, so troubleshooting would be eek.

As tempting as doing a custom keyboard is, and as much as I'd like to at some point.

Finally there's just buying a retail NKRO board. But I'm not sure if I wouldn't just have the same problem again on something like a filco/ducky or even a topre (that sale is so tempting, but I only budgeted myself for 1/2 of what even a cheap 103 topre would be... of course, most of the retail boards available with cherry browns are above what I originally budgeted too... I mean, I *could* pay for a topre on sale, right now, but it would definitely eat into getting myself things like a new set of cute boots and such, originally I wasn't going to spend more than $100 on keyboards for myself this xmas, and I don't know anyone who has a topre to have a try with).

Is there anything I've missed? Does anyone have any feedback on hitting shift keys off center on any of the major Cherry switch brands, or even on Topres? Any recommendations? Even if it's something outlandish, like "buy two matrix boards, one for each hand." NKRO itself isn't a must, but I sometimes have problems with 2 key rollover boards.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 December 2010, 12:35:17 by taswyn »

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 13:11:45 »
As another alternative, just swap caps lock and control. It's SO much easier to hit them both when control is to the left of the A key. Keytweak will do it for you without requiring registry knowledge, if you're a windows use. Mac has it built in, and the linux man page for xmodmap has that exact example.

I highly recommend at least trying it. You might find that you actually like it that way.

Of course, this is all assuming you're using the absurd ANSI layout, with Caps Lock to the left of A.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Moogle Stiltzkin

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 13:14:25 »
Your keyboard? Looks nice.





Quote
o, I really really like the way my Cherry 8100 (really an 8963) feels. The cherry browns are perfect form me, I really like a more delicate activation force switch, and anything louder than this would be far too loud for what *I* like, nevermind disturbing anyone else. I don't have trouble with accidental keypresses because I don't typically "rest" my fingers on the keys when not typing. I *can* use heavier switches, but I tend to slam them so hard that they bottom out loudly on top of any switch feedback (I learned to type on a non-electric typewriter). It's rough on my fingers and hard on everyone's ears. Strangely I don't have that problem as much on switches that don't feel like they need that kind of force to be used.

That's the good news. The bad news is that the board I'm using is not only not NKRO, but I'm having problems with depressing shift and control simultaneously. The control key is about 1/2 the width of the shift key, and I frequently end up with only the control key registering, probably due to hitting the shift key off center when depressing both of them together. (as an aside, the navigation keys islands being transposed up and in a *very* weird configuration is also a real nuisance, even if those are reprogrammable keys)

What I can't tell is if it's a problem that I'll have with other cherry switch boards with similar key dimensions, if it's just that I have a board with a poor left shift key, or what. I don't really want to go back to my SGI sliders over rubber keyboard that I'd been using since my last MS Ergo failed, but at least for gaming it actually worked better. I suppose I could have both connected and swap between them, but that's not at all what I want to do =/


One option probably seems to be to get an ISO foreign layout board. The small shift key shouldn't have the same issues with my pinky hitting it off center due to the angle needed to hit the control key at the same time. But at the same time I really don't think I'm going to be happy with the ISO enter key shape and the change to the pipe/backslash position. Maybe it's something I would grow to like even more if I'd just give it a chance, though? Plus, in the US, they're often cheaper used than ANSI boards are.

Another is to get an older keyboard with a long control key. Which may require modding in a custom controller, which leaves me a little apprehensive. I'm more the type to play with code than with wires, hot solder, and things that go poof when the wrong current goes past them. I'm sure I could in a pinch, I do have exposure to simple circuits and basic soldering, but I don't really have a lot of tools for that type of thing, so troubleshooting would be eek.

As tempting as doing a custom keyboard is, and as much as I'd like to at some point.


Can't comment much on this cause not sure about it :/


Quote
Finally there's just buying a retail NKRO board. But I'm not sure if I wouldn't just have the same problem again on something like a filco/ducky or even a topre (that sale is so tempting, but I only budgeted myself for 1/2 of what even a cheap 103 topre would be... of course, most of the retail boards available with cherry browns are above what I originally budgeted too... I mean, I *could* pay for a topre on sale, right now, but it would definitely eat into getting myself things like a new set of cute boots and such, originally I wasn't going to spend more than $100 on keyboards for myself this xmas, and I don't know anyone who has a topre to have a try with).

Is there anything I've missed? Does anyone have any feedback on hitting shift keys off center on any of the major Cherry switch brands, or even on Topres? Any recommendations? Even if it's something outlandish, like "buy two matrix boards, one for each hand." NKRO itself isn't a must, but I sometimes have problems with 2 key rollover boards.


black widow = 2kro

steelseries 6gv2 , 7G/Ducky/Filco (some models)/Leopold/Deck Legend PS2 variant only/Cherry g80-3494 = all NKRO via USB to PS2

Topre capable of nkro but only after modding heavily. Basically 6kro but that should be fine for most cases unless your planning on playing games like O2Jam that require 7 keys in some instances.


On your budget i'd suggect the NKRO boards i mentioned (except the deck legend that cost a bomb; and the 7G which isn't as cheap as the other boards mentioned, and besides it only comes with cherry mx black same as the 6G)

The cherry g80-3494 is red switches. So your only choice for browns with nkro is filco/ducky/leopold. I am sure there are others like DAS, but their keys wear out pretty fast thats why i didn't bother to mention. Cherry G80 might have some NKRO models but i'm not sure which exactly so i didn't list it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 December 2010, 13:48:12 by Moogle Stiltzkin »
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Current gaming keyboard: Ducky DK-9008 with Cherry Beige/White doubleshots (Cherry Mx Brown)

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Dye subbed keys harvested from NCR 3299-k440-v001 G80-3007 SAU. Casing donated to Mike.
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Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:02:57 »
The DAS silent model is within your budget though, if you're a student within the CONUS. Not sure if you are, but thought it was worth mentioning.

Oh, and I just recently picked up that same keyboard, but in USB with double shots. I just checked, and I don't seem able to replicate your problem, whether or not I have caps lock and control swapped.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:09:33 »
I probably should have been more exact, but 6KRO over usb is more than plenty. Even 3k *should* be fine, I just don't want to be in a situation where I feel frustrated while typing like sometimes happens for me with 2kro. It's not like I'm managing to get blocked that often, but when it does happen it's very annoying.

I've been over the NKRO wikis a few times, so I can narrow from there decently, the trouble is figuring out which of those boards I'm potentially going to have trouble with the shift+control+[something] key combination on, due to any issues with possible off-center keypresses on the shift key, depending on the key dimensions and layout.

Quote
As another alternative, just swap caps lock and control. It's SO much easier to hit them both when control is to the left of the A key. Keytweak will do it for you without requiring registry knowledge, if you're a windows use. Mac has it built in, and the linux man page for xmodmap has that exact example.


I did, but the problem is that shift+caps(re-mapped as control) [strike]is[/strike] was not registering on this keyboard. Odd, it seems to be working now when I just tried. [strike]I could in theory take it apart, cut the pcb, and re-wire the switches into the matrix, but I don't really like this particular design (touchpad + transposed arrow/nav keys) overall enough to want to go through with that right now, I'd rather find something more appealing. Caps as control by itself is working fine. [/strike] It doesn't really feel comfortable, but I guess it's working at least. I'd still like to find something that works with the shift key potentially being hit off center, and with > 2kro, but unless this decides to randomly stop working again, it should do.

Maybe my shift key switch has issues >.>; Except I haven't noticed anything with it in regular typing, so idk.

Part of the problem is that I've been trying to talk myself into/out of over spending and buying one of the on sale Topres. I'm not really sure it would be worth it for me, I'm *pretty* happy with brown switches, mostly just less than happy with some quirks of this particular board's design. And I would be *very* unhappy to spend that much and have issues with offcenter keypresses on the Topre's shift, if that would be a problem. And I admit I'm leery of spending $200+ on something that's in an easy position to have things spilled on it, not that I've ever ruined a keyboard that way, but =/

Offline HaaTa

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:13:14 »
It only takes spilling something on one board to learn your lesson...
Kiibohd

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Offline Lanx

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:14:26 »
don't you use your pink for these actions? i personally have always moved my hand away from home and did, ctrl/shift with thumb and middle finger with index finding the key i need, it's not optimal but i've always done it this way. On a side note i have remapped my new mod caps lock to ctrl and minor testing indicates it is a lot easier to use ctrl from this position.

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:15:24 »
Quote
The DAS silent model is within your budget though, if you're a student within the CONUS. Not sure if you are, but thought it was worth mentioning.


If all of my transcripts ever make it in (ugh), I'm hopefully heading back to university in the spring for the first time in years, so it's definitely an option I've thought about. It's also part of why my I'm (trying) to restrict my budget a bit, with other costs coming up, but I'm probably willing to pay more in a situation where there's a significant reason to. I've also just heard some less than stellar things about the Das in general.

Offline bpiphany

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:25:50 »
Gnome has an option somewhere under system->preferences->keyboard to reconfigure caps as ctrl (and a lot of other options too..)

Have you taken a look at the pcb? perhaps there are holes and connections for the short type of shift? I've noticed sometimes there is more than meets the eye underneath the hood. Then it might just be some soldering and finding a keycap. With mechanical switches I guess it is not as common as with rubber domes though.

Offline HaaTa

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:28:00 »
I have full keyboard layouts written in loadkeys (no X) and XModmap, which includes the CapsLock to Ctrl.

PM me if you're interested.
Kiibohd

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Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:32:26 »
Quote from: Lanx;266306
don't you use your pink for these actions? i personally have always moved my hand away from home and did, ctrl/shift with thumb and middle finger with index finding the key i need, it's not optimal but i've always done it this way. On a side note i have remapped my new mod caps lock to ctrl and minor testing indicates it is a lot easier to use ctrl from this position.


Yes, I use my pinky. Some of my binds include ctrl-alt+[key] and alt-shift-ctrl+[key]

I'm trying to figure out why shift+caps isn't as comfortable, it may be because I don't move my left wrist from the homerow position, so my fingers hit the WASD+modifier keys from a fairly flat angle. That or it's having long fingers with not very large hands. Maybe my pinky is too short by comparison to the rest to make that kind of reach comfortable while keeping my other fingers on WASD =/ Maybe I just need to get used to it =P

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:34:27 »
Quote
Have you taken a look at the pcb? perhaps there are holes and connections for the short type of shift? I've noticed sometimes there is more than meets the eye underneath the hood. Then it might just be some soldering and finding a keycap. With mechanical switches I guess it is not as common as with rubber domes though.


That' a good thought though, thank you, I'll definitely take a look when I get a chance. Using an ISO sized shift key on an ANSI board would be about perfect, other than the gap ^.^

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:36:22 »
Well, I can tell you that I don't really like the Cherry Brown switches, but I do love my HHKB. It just feels so nice to type on. You might feel differently.

So, I'm not sure where you are exactly, but it might be worth tracking down a local geekhacker with a topre, to see if you like it, before spending that much money on it.

If you like your current board except for the rollover issue, you could also snag a USB model off ebay. Take a look here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200555581491

That's the seller I got mine from. Ignore the model number he lists, what he sent me is in my sig.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Lanx

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:38:02 »
aside from modding around(i think you've seen my mod), have you tried to spread out your pinkies? i don't about others by when i use my thumb/middle/index finger it's obivously all on one hand. But how about using left pinky for shift and right pinky for ctrl? maybe this would make a difference, idk i wouldn't do it, but maybe it might work better.

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 14:46:27 »
Quote
But how about using left pinky for shift and right pinky for ctrl? maybe this would make a difference, idk i wouldn't do it, but maybe it might work better.


For normal typing that would work great, and I already tend to shift which side I use for modifiers based on what else I'm pressing (less than I'm supposed to, but oh well). The trouble is for keyboard+mouse gaming =/

I've seriously thought of getting an old WYSE terminal keyboard and modding it, they have these giant control keys =P I'm just a little hesitant. Especially if for the amount it would cost me in tools and such I might just get a nicely working new board.

Quote
If you like your current board except for the rollover issue, you could also snag a USB model off ebay. Take a look here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=200555581491


I was about to say that I have the exact board model they're listing there, but if it's really an 8113HUBUS instead of 8963LUBUS-2, that does change things ^^ I'd glanced at the thread in great finds, but assumed it was just an 8963 model with doubleshots.

Unfortunately I've decided I don't really like the placement of the arrow keys+del/etc on the 8113 style keyboards, I was hoping it would bother me less than it has. Of course, as a reverse of the other issue, it's not a problem when I'm gaming... "just" when I'm actually typing or trying to get work done =P I've thought of getting an 8200, but the control to shift size ratio is the same, so I'd have the same issue with control+shift depressed together on the left side, if it's not something peculiarly particular to my individual keyboard (it's a refurb in mint seeming condition, all of the clear legend covers present etc).

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 15:03:04 »
You know, you can't really go wrong with the Topre boards. If you don't like it, you can always sell it here for basically the same as you paid.

It's definitely something I've been eyeing, personally. But having more keyboards than computers is something my partner really mocks me for, so I either need to stop, buy more computers, and sell a keyboard to buy a keyboard.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 15:18:28 »
Even if this doesn't end up resolving anything, I *really* do appreciate all the input <3 I'm terrible at deciding as it is =/

Quote
Well, I can tell you that I don't really like the Cherry Brown switches, but I do love my HHKB.


How well does your HHKB do at registering the shift key being depressed reasonably past (but not bottoming out) what should be activation, if it's with a finger resting on one side or the other of the key instead of the center of it?

I've been reading Topre reviews, but how would you compare the difference, since you said you dislike browns? What is it that you don't like about the browns but you do like about the Topre switches?

The cherry brown version of the Xarmor U9BL is supposedly coming out in a couple months, but I'm not sure if I want to wait that long to have a replacement.

Quote
You know, you can't really go wrong with the Topre boards. If you don't like it, you can always sell it here for basically the same as you paid.


I've been watching what they sell for used and sort of been thinking the same thing, really.

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 15:57:06 »
The brown switches just feel really squishy to me. I miss pkey resses a lot, the tactile bump is very drawn out, so easy to miss, etc. Honestly, I prefer my rubber membrane sun keyboard significantly more than my cherry brown keyboards. But it's much closer in feel to a keytronic than to a chiclet keyboard.

The biggest deal for me is that on browns, I miss key presses. On BS or Topre, I never do. I'm a CS PhD student, so I type a LOT, and rarely mistype with either of those switches. It happens all the time with the Cherry switches.

I know, I'm a weird person (at least on geekhack) in that I don't like cherry browns. But for me, it's buckling springs and topres all the way. Totally different feel to them, but for some reason, swapping between them has never been a problem for me.

I don't use caps lock at all (it's FN + Tab on the HHKB), so I hold down the shift key fairly often. It's really really hard to hold down a topre key beyond actuation without bottoming out, at least when hitting it centered. It's not that there is no room, it's just there is very little force involved in moving the keys at that point.

Hitting it off center (that's rather hard to do except intentionally), there's a bit more force, and you can fairly easily hold it down midway. I personally find it uncomfortable to hit it that way, but that's just how my hands work, I guess.

Again, this is all personal opinion. So, either buy it, try it, and sell it if you don't like it, or find someone close that has one to try. I really think you'll like it, though.

And while I get the cute boots argument, I still think giving up a pair of boots for a topre is a worthwhile trade. But then, it wouldn't be me wearing them, so I admit to bias.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #18 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 22:47:34 »
Quote
Again, this is all personal opinion.

Thank you for it though =) I've already done a fair amount of research for what I can easily find, it's mostly particulars for certain specific things that are harder to know without trying something, so even opinions help a lot.

Personally I do really like the cherry browns, but I also think I can understand what you mean about the softer feel. The actuation is pretty soft and a *bit* long feeling sometimes rather than being sharp and quick. I don't really notice when I'm typing faster, then it all seems to just turn into a steady stream of key snaps, but there have been a few times at least where I've misjudged the actuation and had a missed keystroke from it.

Quote
Hitting it off center (that's rather hard to do except intentionally), there's a bit more force, and you can fairly easily hold it down midway. I personally find it uncomfortable to hit it that way, but that's just how my hands work, I guess.


It's probably a bit much to ask, but if you get a chance, could you check how reliably the longer keys like shift actuate when hit off center with a reasonably quick press (normalish typing speed, not just holding it down)? That's mostly the problem I seem to be having with this keyboard. Or at least I think it's that. Maybe I'm just not using enough pressure on my pinky, in which case a board like the Realforce with variable weighting would be pretty ideal for me I guess.

Again, thank you so much for all the input ^.^

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:17:34 »
I can't check it today, but I'll be back with my computer later this evening. I'll look into it then.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:47:37 »
Thanks =)

Now I almost feel like I'm not entirely sure what's causing this, at least not reliably. I swear I've had times where I've depressed both keys so far they were both bottomed out and one or the other didn't register. Usually it seems like shift doesn't register, but sometimes it's control, and it definitely feels like I'm *at least* pressing past the point of actuation on both. It doesn't seem to make sense that it would be a controller problem, though, since normally the two do work depressed together, and I'm mostly using them together either with keys/buttons on my mouse, or with arrow keys when doing any regular text work.

Also I've been trying to use caps as control, but I can't tell if it's something I'll be able to do or not, it feels like having my pinky placed where it's hovering over the caps key position while also covering shift, to easily press either, along with having the rest of my hand hovering over WASD, is going to lead to some muscle pain from the way my hand contorts, and that's something I'm very careful to avoid. Remapping movement keys to EWDF or ESDF may work, it's a more natural angle, especially the EWDF. Tucking my thumb under my palm to hit alt becomes a little bit more of a reach, but I may try it.

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:57:57 »
Out of curiosity, have you checked to make sure there's nothing under the keys? Sometimes, especially if you have a pet, the keys can get gunked up. Feels like it's bottoming out, but there's something in the way preventing it from actually doing so.

I only ask as you said it's an occasional thing, and a mobile foreign object would cause just such a problem.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 16:18:04 »
I was pretty sure I had, but checked again, nothing underneath =)  (yet... little gray cat hairs get everywhere eventually D: )

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #23 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 17:35:41 »
Back home with my HHKB now, and when I check, I have no issues hitting it off center.

In fact, when just typing, it doesn't seem to feel any different. When holding it down, there is a wee bit more friction when held off center, making it easier to hold it down just below activation.

Hope that helps.

And sorry to hear there was no gunk. That would have been an easy, and inexpensive, fix.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Lanx

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #24 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 23:55:25 »
i went to see which keyboard you had (trying to see if it had a numpad and maybe you can game on your numpad)
the first google hit was
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/cherry/mx_8100/
curious i read more and followed a link,
it's the guy with the super keyboard (and mad skills)
http://mykeyboard.co.uk/microswitch/

man is this guy on here? he needs to be indoctrinated into GH.

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 11:12:47 »
Thank you so much for the follow up and taking the time to look further (and farther)! Unfortunately about the numberpad, the main reason I use WASD is both to have access to ctrl-shift-alt for combinations, and because when I'm not cutting at digital things I'm chatting =P Sometimes both at the same time D: using a numpad doesn't really work well for that, it's less than convenient to have to move your left hand that far to the home row. I'd probably pick up something like a genovations programmable keypad otherwise.

Good (and bad in a way) news about the topre keys, though! Now I just have to decide if I feel like it's really worth that much of a premium to me >.> Or if I just want to move up to a more expensive model of cherry brown keyboard and hopefully not run into the same problem. I know some people HATE the variable weighting on the topre boards that have it, but for me it sounds like it would be great, even for gaming. Since much of my gaming is general typing anyway <.<; As an anti-RSI device, it would be worth it, but then again I feel like browns are probably plenty soft enough for me for that purpose. Spending up to $200 for a typing keyboard makes me wince a bit (a lot) right now, but seems justifiable. I've caused myself wrist/finger pain before when I was younger, so I'm very careful with my hands and don't mind spending a bit more on things to reduce potential RSI. Spending it specifically due to gaming concerns, though, is right on the edge of having me just say no.

And Lanx, yes, trust me, the entire mod an Ergo 4000 thing is so tempting! =P I do love the layout, and have two boards I meant to return for warranty (some sort of controller problem I think, half the board just stopped registering keypresses, they were under warranty at the time so I didn't crack the seal... but I also forgot to send them in >.> ) sitting around. I'm just very trepidatious about actually trying it. I had some light electronics courses years ago but was never amazingly adept at them. And I'd have to invest in a soldering iron and desoldering tool for any soldering work as it is; I had a cheapo one years and years ago from some highschool project and have no clue where it could be. I could borrow the hardware-ish cutting tools and such, though, at least.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 11:23:28 by taswyn »

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #26 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 11:24:36 »
Oh, and I meant to say, yes, I'd come across the [strike]microswitches[/strike] (it's how I remember his page apparently) mykeyboard.co.uk guy too with some search a bit ago. Really fascinating stuff, and yes he seems very skilled.

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #27 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 20:42:43 »
Quote
he's on a HHKB


Pfft, please. He's probably built some crazy contraption out of microswitches and mx keycaps and then ascended to another plane of perfect actuation force keyboard nirvana D:

(look at his X-keys based keypad page)



More related to the thread, I seem to have "successfully" ( >.>;; ) sabotaged through dithering my purchasing an HHKB for the moment at least. I will probably succumb to temptation of the topres at some point, but I should at least wait until after xmas at this point, probably, for my own peace of mind if nothing else.

I'm currently trying out using WED as my movement keys and the caps-as-control + shift with that position. I may need to remove the control keycap (and switch?) to avoid hitting it when trying to just hit shift alone with that top joint of my pinky. I can manage not to mostly, but I'm not sure how *reliably* I can manage to only hit the shift like that and not also the control key below it. But so far it *is* an improvement, so I do think the issue must be something to do with how the shift key gets hit off center when it's the normal control key and shift both being depressed from that wider angle.

Ironically enough, if it turns out that I like and get used to this control scheme, it would make an HHKB fairly ideal ( /facepalm )
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 20:47:50 by taswyn »

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #28 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 22:05:25 »
Oh right, W + capskey (mapped to control) + shift is *completely* blocking on the 80-8963's 2kro controller =X

E + capskey + shift is fine though.

Clearly whatever I do end up doing, I am going to need a new keyboard either way. Maybe try to find an 6/NKRO g80-8200, if I'm going to stay in my budget for now. Blah.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 22:13:55 by taswyn »

Offline Lanx

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #29 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 00:34:58 »
note
the first g80-8200 had some kind of nkro (i never plugged it in) i'm saying this cuz each switch had a diode.
the second g80-8200 i had i suspect had only 2nkro cuz it lacked the diodes. (again i never plugged it in)

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #30 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 07:15:55 »
I've guessed from the nkey wiki that it's a difference between the -2 and original 8200 models, but maybe it's more specific than that. It *does* seem like all of the 8200 PS/2 models (not ending in -2 on the full model designation) that I see on ebay use the ansi style enter key.

It's that or get an 8113 (not 8963 like mine) and mod it to have keys (that top row of programmable keys would be so much more useful in more reachable places) in the place of the touchpad (stupid touchpad I hate you and your moving of keys, why couldn't they put you ABOVE the arrow/nav keys and use two of those as mouse keys, and move ins/del down to the same height as the numbers/backspace row). I guess if I get one, I could use it while I take this one apart to experiment on.

But that's probably a fair amount of work and need for tools when the 8200 already has a nice layout.

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #31 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 11:25:32 »
Well, I had a thought that I could get a Tipro KM128 and a genovation 682 and use one as a right hand board and the other for the left, but the Tipro's documentation reveals it's only 2kro.

Also not sure if there's any problems with keypress timing when using 2 different usb HID/keyboard devices simultaneously. It doesn't *seem* like there would be, if they were each for different hands. But something to consider. Maybe cutting up two keyboards and using a controller from each would be an "easy" ergo solution for a minimum of rewiring/cutting/etc. Or cutting up one and using the original controller on one half and a teensy on the other half.

Trying out the normal shift/ctrl with SDC movement keys to see if it keeps my pinky from ending up quite so splayed at an angle across the corner/edge of the shift key and leads to less problems with keypresses not actuating.

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #32 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 18:26:40 »
Interestingly, in windows, if you hold down multiple keys simultaneously, 1 per keyboard, you get exactly alternating input, in the same sequence, every single time. PS/2, USB, it doesn't seem to matter.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline taswyn

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #33 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 21:43:03 »
That sounds... perplexing. I was going to go find another usb keyboard and see if that behavior would be a problem, then realized that technically my Naga is in fact an HID keyboard by default. I've never had *any* problems with the way it responds, but of course I don't try ~typing~ on it. Holding down a button on it while holding down a key on the keyboard does just as you described, a string of the two characters alternating as they repeat. Holding down two keys on either only repeats the second one to register the keydown in text entry windows. But of course both continue to register as pressed in any software that's programmed to be more exacting.

I guess the next thing I need to check is to take two usb keyboards, put them both on my desk at an angle, and try typing with one hand on the appropriate homerow position on either and see if there are any transposition/etc issues. I would just write/find some software to check the recorded keydown/up arrival times, but I don't have a reliable way to press keys on two keyboards at *exactly* the same time, so that ultimately wouldn't be much more reliable than seeing if it "feels" right or not. I wouldn't really want to end up in a das 3 situation.

Well, at least so far as the really strange repeat behavior the Das 3 would do when past 6 keys, it doesn't seem to occur between 2 different keyboards with buttons pressed at once. BTW, interesting fact, the Razer Naga is 6KRO over USB, so if it were ps2 compatible it would probably be an nkey (all twelves of them) device for the keypad portion. Amusingly ironic when the blackwidow isn't, n'est-ce pas?

I will have to explore actually typing with two keyboards at once a bit later, but that initial look with the cherry and the naga together via Aquatest was promising at least ^^

woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 27 December 2010, 10:55:44 »
Quote from: ripster;269413
DXtreme HHKB killer.

Show Image

Heh, few years ago I got a similar cheap-ass keyboard, although PS/2 and with layout similar to G84-4100. It's even got red Cyrillic Bulgarian legends, since I bought it locally for about $8.5, and that includes 20% VAT.

Here it is, still in stock. They have even cheaper keyboards.


woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 27 December 2010, 12:33:53 »
Yes, tiny separate rubber domes over membranes. Terrible as a keyboard, but looking at it, I still can't understand the price.

woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 27 December 2010, 13:45:51 »
I missed that you were excited about the $18 keyboard mostly because of the scissors.

woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #37 on: Mon, 27 December 2010, 15:06:53 »
It's definitely smaller than the one I showed, which is 30 cm x 15 cm.
But it's thick only 9 mm (about 11 mm with keytops included).

What's very funny - the whole bottom side is a metal plate.

It's sold for $6 excluding VAT here. So there's profit for the local shop, shipment, some profit for a middleman, small profit for the factory .... Damn. Chinese Remainder Theorem is easy, but this Chinese math is not. Are they doing with imaginary profit?

Offline keyboardlover

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #38 on: Mon, 27 December 2010, 20:52:03 »
It doesn't take much to get Ripster excited.

I assume his wife considers this a plus.

woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 28 December 2010, 10:16:54 »
Where's Insert?

woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #40 on: Tue, 28 December 2010, 10:36:46 »
To reduce risk of serious injury ...

Yep, caution needed.

Offline Lanx

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #41 on: Tue, 28 December 2010, 13:17:09 »
Quote from: woody;269824
To reduce risk of serious injury ...

Yep, caution needed.


name of this poster is even more lulz considering the comment.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #42 on: Tue, 28 December 2010, 15:03:02 »
Never be ♭, sometimes be #, always be ♮...
tp thread is tp thread
Sometimes it's like he accidentally makes a thread instead of a google search.

IBM Model M SSK | IBM Model F XT | IBM Model F 122 | IBM Model M 122 | Ducky YOTD 2012 w/ blue switches | Poker II w/ Blue switches | Royal Kludge RK61 w/ Blue switches

woody

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 07:32:36 »
You wouldn't want your girl to B♭.

Offline theferenc

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Mechanical boards for shift+ctrl, options?
« Reply #44 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 07:43:38 »
Depends on what you like, I would think.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball