Author Topic: Computer Troubles, seeking help  (Read 6101 times)

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Offline mian2222

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Computer Troubles, seeking help
« on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 20:29:44 »
Hey guys, been a lurker here for a bit and finally joined a week or so ago. Loved learning about keyboards here. That being said I got huge computer troubles!

I've been an amateur computer enthusiast for about 2 years, in that time I've built and modified 3 computers.

My cousin's PC (built by me) was going fine until it started to restart by itself. It happened sporadically and very rarely so I thought nothing of it at the time. Lo and behold the thing bricks.

Now I understand that there are beeps to signify problems in a computer. I booted up the PC; all fans spin, all lights lit up, no beeps and no display. My immediate thought was a tanked motherboard (we had bought a cheaper brand). We got a new MSI board. Same problem.

Now I'm really frustrated and embarrassed. I had built this for her for her HTPC and the thing freaking bricks on me. I swap out power supplies for one that I knew worked before (we upgraded from a 250 w to 350 w but the 250 never gave us problems I knew of). Still the same, no beeps no display.

So today I take the thing home and swap out the RAM for my RAM since I know mine works. And of course, the same thing happens!

Here are the specs:
PSU: Rosewill 350w
CPU: Athlon AM2+ 2.8 Dual Core (I do not know the specific model number since the thing wont boot up and I didn't think to the check the CPU when I swapped mobos).
RAM: Gskill 2 gig ddr3 10600
HDD: 320 GB Western Digital Blue

I'm in desperate need of some geek help!

Offline msiegel

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Computer Troubles, seeking help
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 20:46:59 »
logically, the problem has to be something that wasn't swapped... maybe one of the internal power cables? the hdd?

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Offline jpc

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« Reply #2 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 21:08:11 »
Try removing all drives, cards, and case headers that aren't essential. Also remove anything external that's not essential, any USB devices. If you get it to work, add everything back one by one...

Could be a bad video card, if it's a separate video card.
Could be a sticky reset switch on the case.
Could be a short if you've got metal floating around in the case, behind the motherboard.
Could be both your power supplies have wrong 115V / 230V settings. Not likely for two power supplies :D

Hopefully you didn't roast the CPU.  o_O.  A good tube of thermal grease is your friend. I never learned to trust those brittle little squares of thermal conductor that come attached to heatsinks shipped with modern CPUs.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #3 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 21:11:36 »
+1 for good advice.

it'd be ironic if it was the keyboard ;)

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Offline porkbone

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« Reply #4 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 21:14:32 »
i'd say strip it down to the barebones: motherboard, CPU, memory, and power supply and power it up.  Does it POST (beep)?

If so, start plugging things in one at a time until it stops working.

If not, since you've already tested known good memory, and a second mobo, then it's almost certainly the CPU itself or something funny about the case.  Eventually you'll have just the motherboard out of the case sitting on an antistatic mat...
« Last Edit: Mon, 20 December 2010, 21:16:35 by porkbone »

Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #5 on: Mon, 20 December 2010, 23:33:14 »
Actually you can even do it without the memory and see if you get an error beep (after verfiying that the speaker works, of course).   Easy to diagnose the cpu itself if you have another working mobo that you could try it out on, too.
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Offline Nadger

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« Reply #6 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 00:35:36 »
I would say cpu.  If it were shorting out, i would assume when you swapped the mobo out you would have noticed something.

You also said its a HTPC, people forget computers need to breath and often put HTPCs inside entertainment centers, or devices stacked on top of devices and block air vents, or its tucked away somewhere not getting cool fresh air.

My guess is the cpu had been overheating, thus the reboots, and it eventually caused permanent damage to it.

My second guess would be video card.  Ive seen computers throw a halt error and not post if it does not detect a video card.
« Last Edit: Tue, 21 December 2010, 00:39:44 by Nadger »
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #7 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 00:43:55 »
Quote from: Nadger;266578
cpu


that would explain the lack of beeps

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Offline bpiphany

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Computer Troubles, seeking help
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 00:57:12 »
My computer once refused to start after rebuilding it. I tried the bios reset jumper (a good thing to try too), tried to upgrade the bios which sort of made something happen, but still nothing, no post beeps or anything. Then after a while I jacked the RAM out and started it. Seemed like that did the trick. The MB at once started the no-RAM beep and after I installed it again everything worked! Perhaps it was stuck in some sort of odd mode somehow and just needed to be kicked the right way. I have no idea. It was a intel mini-itx board by the way.

Offline mian2222

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« Reply #9 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 01:42:32 »
Thanks a ton for the thought out replies! I'm almost certain its not the memory now, I get the same problem with no RAM as I do with RAM.

Can you explain why the no beeps signifies a busted CPU?

Offline bpiphany

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« Reply #10 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 02:35:05 »
What model is the MB? Do you have a manual? The beep codes should be listed there as well as the possible meaning of no beeps... Have you connected all the power cables to the MB propertly? You might be able to start with as little as the MB, CPU and PSU seeing what happens. You might still need a graphics card if that is not built in, I'm not sure about this. The manual would help.

Offline godly_music

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« Reply #11 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 06:50:51 »
The Motherboard is always the last suspect. CPUs don't usually break unless they are cooled improperly, and even so they have safety mechanisms. Rebooting out of the blue might be a safety mechanism to prevent the CPU from overheating. I had that once when my fan was dying.

I also had a no-beep situation like yours before. Turned out my RAM was bad.

But heed the other people's advice. Swap components with another PC and see what works where, remove non-essential components. If it's a BSOD you might want to un-check "automatically restart" in System > Advanced > Startup and Recovery.

Offline mian2222

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« Reply #12 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 09:22:21 »
Well if you read the whole post it says it shows no screen and power gets to all components. I get the same exact problem with no RAM. The motherboard should scream at me if theres no RAM installed at all.

So now I'm getting conflicting advice, I've eliminated PSU, RAM, Optical drive, and motherboard. Graphics is integrated. Is there anything else I should do before I buy a new CPU?

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #13 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 10:49:48 »
Was the second PSU that you tested it with any decent?

It's possible that it the cheapo PSU inflicted some permanent damage on something.

Offline Computer-Lab in Basement

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Computer Troubles, seeking help
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 13:18:40 »
Quote from: mian2222;266585
Thanks a ton for the thought out replies! I'm almost certain its not the memory now, I get the same problem with no RAM as I do with RAM.

Can you explain why the no beeps signifies a busted CPU?


Here is an idea: Remove the CPU, and turn on the computer.  If you still get the same results as before, you know it's a bad CPU.
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Offline mian2222

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« Reply #15 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:05:30 »
That's a good idea. I'll try that later tonight. And yes the PSU's were cheaper than normal. I'll test it with my rigs PSU as well which is a cooler master so it should be better.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #16 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:34:20 »
I've never heard of a CPU failing*, or indeed any way that the CPU could fail in such a way that it would cause a motherboard to die.

If the motherboard is not beeping, it's probably dead, or the PSU is ****ed and causing the motherboard to fail.



[size=-2]*Not including overclocking, fan failure, or problems arising from bad installation[/size]

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #17 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 14:45:39 »
Well, the other one was lower powered, and could be a cheapass brand. And it's possible that the first PSU died and took stuff down with it.

Offline mian2222

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« Reply #18 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 00:49:35 »
Yeah I mean there are only 2 main power connections from the motherboard to the power supply, the 24 pin and the 4 pin. The 4 pin isnt even one of those 8 pin thingies so I can't screw that up, and the 24 pin fits in perfectly.

Offline iMav

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Computer Troubles, seeking help
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:16:40 »
If it had started random reboots and then died, those are pretty common symptoms of a CPU that was overheating.  The CPU is likely toast.

Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #20 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 14:30:38 »
I think the quickest route to ensuring its the CPU that's done in is  putting it in another working Mobo setup.  No boot/Post there and then you know for sure.

Hmm -  Have you tested the cpu FAN?  They get absurdly hot almost instantly so some boards will not start  up unless that is functional to protect the cpu from damage.

It is true though, that a bad or failing PSU will take out other components and that a bad GPU/GPU fan can also cause similar boot problems - I learned both of these in a somewhat slow and painful way myself after countless BSOD and boot hangs and weird stop errors that had me tearing apart the OS looking for a rootkit  or a virus for months before I even looked at the hardware itself.

  **Check  the capacitors on the motherboard, particularly the ones  right by the CPU bed and look for any leakage or swelling, too.  

My VAIO had killed at least three video cards and when the last one I bought as a replacement turned out to be too power hungry, I figured out that it wasn't the cards themselves that were the problem once I examined the PSU.  Replaced that, but when I put it in, I discovered by then the damage was done to the mobo as well, which was having an entire row of bulging caps near the CPU.  Further investigation into how to prevent such things (Phaedrus's PSU guides at OCN are superb!) taught me that the unreliable electricity flow at my house may ultimately have been the root cause of the PSU failing and taking the GPUs with it - I only had a cheapo surge strip to protect against the countless times my bf blew the fuse with a shop vac or power tool and the main supply is subject to "dimming" with far more frequency than I have experienced anywhere else I've lived.  I never realized how important it was to have an actually battery backup before, but after the 3rd GPU went down I started calculating the costs of not having one as more significant and  I didn't even plug in the new mobo until I had procured one.  

To my amazement, I was actually able to resuscitate the VAIO board " Franken-style" by soldering in some ill-fitting caps from a dead Dell that had the same voltage.  It was purely an academic exercise in curiosity;  I was wincing as I pushed the ON button as I wholly expected the experiment to fail if not actually blow up or something because the replacements were really too thick to fit in between the narrower VAIO caps that were still good.  I sort of shoved em in alternate directions so they leaned out to each side of the line instead of upright shoulder to shoulder looking like cartoon characters teeth after dropping the piano em (and getting em in after getting the old ones out by hand with a radio shack cheapo iron was challenging enough if they had FIT...)   When it actually BEEPED, POSTED and then started WINDOWS I about fell over from shock... I'm using it right now with the 2nd GPU that failed before with a new GPU fan!
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Offline clickclack

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Computer Troubles, seeking help
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 14:52:12 »
I probably have absolutely no substantial qualifications to even considering posting in this thread but I am dumb so here we go...

I built my most recent computer (pats self on back) but the only things I could think of were indeed the cpu overheating and then shutting down. But if it was not the cpu then perhaps the power/reset swich shorting out? I know that sounds unlikely but... worth the check right?

Good luck on your troubleshooting, when you have it all sorted please do tell what the culprit was.

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Offline jpc

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« Reply #22 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 15:14:26 »
Quote from: mian2222;266585
I'm almost certain its not the memory now, I get the same problem with no RAM as I do with RAM.


I don't think that exonerates the RAM.

Bad RAM (or good RAM with dirty contacts) could easily behave the same as no RAM.

Old tech tip: use a soft pencil eraser to gently clean the contacts on the RAM, before inserting it. That one has saved me at least once.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

woody

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« Reply #23 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 15:19:04 »
Quote from: jpc;267418
Old tech tip: use a soft pencil eraser to gently clean the contacts

Yup, that's one of the ways to remove oxides.

Offline jpc

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« Reply #24 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 15:23:45 »
Years ago I bought some memory for a laptop, mail order. The contacts on this brand-new module were filthy, not just oxidized, they were caked with crud. Pencil eraser fixed it.

Works on the edges of PCI cards too, or whatever the bus is called these days.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

woody

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« Reply #25 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 16:08:14 »
Works for socketed DIP/PLCC chips and whatnot.

Offline Voixdelion

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« Reply #26 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 18:40:13 »
IF the error codes for that board indicate that it should emit some kind of beep about no RAM being installed, and the "same response" happens with or without it, then you CAN eliminate RAM as a PRIMARY cause of failure provided that response is actually silence.   Doesn't mean the RAM is totally sound, but it does mean that there is another problem with the other bits that must be remedied first before the status of the RAM itself can be determined.
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Offline mian2222

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« Reply #27 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 11:59:55 »
I know it's not the RAM because I tried my working RAM in the same setup

Offline mian2222

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« Reply #28 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 14:06:25 »
Looks like new CPU it is... sigh! And I always preferred Natalie Portman to Keira Knightly.