Author Topic: Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?  (Read 18511 times)

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Offline EverythingIBM

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 16:59:40 »
Quote from: elef;266623
That's a really silly way of looking at it.
I'm Hungarian, we have 9 accented letters in addition to the letters of the English alphabet. A lot of them are in the top right corner area you can only reach with your right little finger, one is in the bottom left corner. The upshot is that it is possible (barely) to give each character its own key and allow reasonably normal typing. 3 letters are near the backspace key which is pretty awful, but it's still better than resorting to keycombos. I mean, would you like to have to press, say, AltGr-o to get a u letter? and Shift-AltGr-o to get a capital U? Of course not.
Obviously, the Chinese had no chioce, there is no practical way of accommodating all their characters. That's a totally different situation.


On another note, I hate the small ANSI enter key with a fiery passion. When I bought my laptop, I made sure it had a proper big enter.
Part of the reason for the tall enter in the ISO layout may be that we have another key between the L and the enter. On an ANSI keyboard it's K, L, :, *, Enter. On Hungarian keyboards it's K, L, É, Á, Ű, Enter. That means you can't just reach over with your little finger to hit Enter, you have to move your whole hand - so you need a bigger target if you want to be able to hit it witout looking. I actually hit the Enter key with my ring finger.

Show Image


No, the ANSI enter key is faster because you don't have to move your hand far at all to hit it on the utmost left of it. Whereas ISO enter you have to move your hand ALL THE WAY to the right.
Also, to make a question mark, with ANSI you simply swipe the right shift and slash key. Quick.
So in terms of efficiency, ANSI is faster.

Now about the key layout, why don't you just use alt-shift? That's what I do for Russian. I hit alt-shift and then I can type easily with cyrillic characters (the same could be done for any language layout). Very nicely on ANSI! Wouldn't have it any other way.

And hitting alt-shift is very fast on the left side of the keyboard. Well, if you have a properly sized shift key.
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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 17:03:52 »
I toggle Cyrillic with the left Windows key. At least found some use for it, since it plagued all the keyboards.

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #52 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 19:12:04 »
Honestly, it's about time that foreign languages just ditched the accents on letters when it comes to computers. That would make computer input much simpler.
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Offline dec.net

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 19:19:56 »
Quote

Honestly, it's about time that foreign languages just ditched the accents on letters when it comes to computers. That would make computer input much simpler.


Actually, while you're at it, why not ban languages other than english from the user interfaces of all programs? That would make the programmer's job a lot simpler as well, it's a really great idea to improve efficiency! Unicode support is such a hassle to implement anyways.

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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #54 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 19:22:23 »
Quote from: dec.net;266964
why not ban english from user interfaces


done and done.

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Offline dec.net

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 19:46:33 »
Nice, we're making progress! I'm really looking forward to the day when the books finally start to print ancient greek quotes in plain and simple english letters and symbols such as the Perseus Project's transcription:

mh=nin a)/eide qea\ *phlhi+a/dew *)axilh=os ou)lom\enhn, h(\ muri/' *a)xaioi=s a)/lge' e)/qhke
[/SIZE]

looks so much more appealing and certainly more modern than those stupid old greek hieroglyphics

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε
[/SIZE]

It would also be much more convenient for beginners if we standardized the letters in all existing languages to those used in english, since nobody would have to learn any strange new symbols. It would really be a leap towards a better future for all of mankind.

Chris
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Offline dec.net

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« Reply #56 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 20:08:58 »
You're such a teaser... I almost got my hands on a set of APL keys recently - but the seller seemed way too shady. Also, of course, APL has the slight inconvenience in regard to ancient greek that it doesn't offer much more than three actual letters (four, if you count that alpha-looking-symbol). Well, guess I'll have to do like everybody else and go for the "external keysymbols"
(not my pic btw, way too clean desk)

Chris
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Offline D-EJ915

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #57 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 22:32:33 »
Quote from: theferenc;266748
And don't forget that | and \ are used extensively in programming and markup languages. Plus #, which is really convenient on an ANSI board, but I seem to recall not nearly as convenient on an ISO board. At least the UK layout, it's a pain in the ass to get to.

` and ~ are also extensively used in UNIX land and programming.

Maybe that's the biggest difference, I think. Many programming languages come out of the US, and so the characters used by the language are mostly based on the ANSI layout, and so the ANSI layout tends to be the most convenient for programming. After all, you will just not be using anything other than ASCII in C, for instance, except *possibly* in strings -- and then only if you are using the wchar type or a unicode aware string package. But none of the actual control will be in anything other than ASCII characters.

Which are all that you can find on an ANSI board. ISO boards tend to have other characters, that are not in the ASCII set.

Funny thing is on the canadian french layout (which I use) those are on the same key #|\.  I would love a laptop with an ISO layout but ... not available in the US of course haha.  such is life...

Quote from: EverythingIBM;266896
No, the ANSI enter key is faster because you don't have to move your hand far at all to hit it on the utmost left of it. Whereas ISO enter you have to move your hand ALL THE WAY to the right.
Also, to make a question mark, with ANSI you simply swipe the right shift and slash key. Quick.
So in terms of efficiency, ANSI is faster.
I have to move my hand to hit enter on either
« Last Edit: Tue, 21 December 2010, 22:35:02 by D-EJ915 »

Offline WhiteRice

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #58 on: Tue, 21 December 2010, 22:40:45 »


alpha, delta, theta, iota, rho, omega.

:)

Offline Ekaros

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #59 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:15:19 »
Quote from: dec.net;266982
Nice, we're making progress! I'm really looking forward to the day when the books finally start to print ancient greek quotes in plain and simple english letters and symbols such as the Perseus Project's transcription:

mh=nin a)/eide qea\ *phlhi+a/dew *)axilh=os ou)lom\enhn, h(\ muri/' *a)xaioi=s a)/lge' e)/qhke
[/SIZE]

looks so much more appealing and certainly more modern than those stupid old greek hieroglyphics

μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε
[/SIZE]

It would also be much more convenient for beginners if we standardized the letters in all existing languages to those used in english, since nobody would have to learn any strange new symbols. It would really be a leap towards a better future for all of mankind.

Chris


Yeah, and we could cut down those to maybe 10, I mean why on earth anyone need all 25 alphapeths? Ph will do for f, and kv for q and v for w, and so on, like p will do for b... Also, three ([{ is way too much simplify it to just (, and then why need both / and \ when one will do just fine.
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline msiegel

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #60 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:25:12 »
Quote from: Ekaros;267095
we could cut down those


xperts r alrdy wurkn on dis prob

/txtmsg

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Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #61 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:34:37 »
Quote from: msiegel;267104
eksperts r alrdy vurkn on dis prop

/txtmsg


FIXED(a bit!)
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #62 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 01:36:16 »
excellent :D

let's call it Ekaronto ;)

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woody

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« Reply #63 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 03:24:51 »
Quote
... APL ...

Notice how Ripster likes all things ending in APL?

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #64 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 03:27:45 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;266954
Honestly, it's about time that foreign languages just ditched the accents on letters when it comes to computers. That would make computer input much simpler.


Perhaps your country should take over the world and force everyone to speak English.

Oh wait...

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #65 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 03:52:19 »
Quote from: EverythingIBM;266896

Also, to make a question mark, with ANSI you simply swipe the right shift and slash key. Quick.


That's a character layout issue, not a key layout one. You can do the same thing on the ISO UK/Irish layout -



Why there's a UK/Irish layout seperate to the US one, I have no clue.

woody

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« Reply #66 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 03:53:52 »
Typewriter legacy perhaps?

Offline elef

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #67 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 05:18:20 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;266954
Honestly, it's about time that foreign languages just ditched the accents on letters when it comes to computers. That would make computer input much simpler.


I have no idea if you actually meant that, but it's obviously never going to happen. It would be nice for practical reasons like learning new languages and international communication/text exchange, but I would be sad to see special characters go. I'd hate to see my mother tongue simplified in that way.

BTW English is the worst offender in the world in a very closely related area: English orthography is hopelessly screwed up. Read (present) and read (past) are written the same but pronouned differently, as are lead and lead and the endings of through and trough and naught and draught, while witch and which are written differently and pronounced the same etc. It's a hugely confusing and inefficient system. There were numerous attempts aimed at transitioning to a more reasonable system, but they were all pretty much dead in the water. Samuel Johnson was one of the first, and, as he wrote the first major dictionary and had huge prestice in elite circles, he achieved some limited success (his dictionary standardised English spelling as we know it). Benjamin Franklin wanted to go much further already a bit earlier: he wanted to introduce an unambiguous spelling system where each word's pronounciation can be determined based on how it's written and each sound is always written in the same way. He failed miserably, as has everyone else ever since.

So yeah, not even spelling reform is possible, let alone simplifying the language itself. Using what amounts to a pidgin writing system ("you guys just imagine your diacriticals, don't bother writing them down") is of course out of the question in all but the most limited and special circumstances. Unicode support is slowly but surely solving most of the problem anyway.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 December 2010, 06:40:00 by elef »

Offline elef

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #68 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 05:25:58 »
Quote from: microsoft windows;266954
Honestly, it's about time that foreign languages just ditched the accents on letters when it comes to computers. That would make computer input much simpler.


I have no idea if you actually meant that, but it's obviously never going to happen. It would be nice for practical reasons like learning new languages and international communication/text exchange, but I would be sad to see special characters go. I'd hate to see my mother tongue simplified in that way.

BTW English is the worst offender in the world in a very closely related area: English orthography is hopelessly screwed up. Read (present) and read (past) are written the same, pronouned differently, as are lead and lead and the endings of through and trough and naught and draught, while witch and which are written differently and pronounced the same etc. It's a hugely confusing and inefficient system. There were numerous attempts aimed at transitioning to a more reasonable system, but they were all pretty much dead in the water. Samuel Johnson was one of the first, and, as he wrote the first major dictionary and had huge prestice in elite circles, he achieved some limited success (his dictionary standardised English spelling as we know it). Benjamin Franklin wanted to go much further already a bit earlier: he wanted to introduce an unambiguous spelling system where each word's pronounciation can be determined based on how it's written and each sound is always written in the same way. He failed miserably, as has everyone else ever since.

So yeah, not even spelling reform is possible, let alone simplifying the language itself. Using what amounts to a pidgin writing system ("you guys just imagine your diacriticals, don't bother writing them down") is of course out of the question in all but the most limited and special circumstances. Unicode support is slowly but surely solving most of the problem anyway.

Offline quadibloc

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #69 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 06:45:15 »
Quote from: woody;267152
Typewriter legacy perhaps?
No. In Ireland, in France, in Germany, typewriters did not normally have a key between the letter Z and the shift key.

Hence, I think many people in ISO-layout countries who learned to type on typewriters find that keyboard just as annoying as people in ANSI-layout countries like the United States, even if younger people are used to the keyboard being that way.

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #70 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:10:09 »
Elef, chinese is even worse than english, actually. There are often several dozen characters associated with the same pinyin, which is strictly based on the pronunciation of the word.

Since there are 4 tones (plus toneless), that still leaves multiple characters for each pronounceable toned utterance. Often with radically (no pun intended) different meanings.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #71 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:13:58 »
Quote from: elef;267174
I have no idea if you actually meant that


He didn't, don't worry.

Quote
In Ireland,


We just got stuck with whatever the Brits used. Most other former Commonwealth/former Commonwealth countries ended up with the US keyboard layout. I think South Africa might use the UK layout as well though.
« Last Edit: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:16:49 by ch_123 »

woody

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Is the ANSI Layout Endangered?
« Reply #72 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:29:01 »
Quote from: quadibloc;267193
No. In Ireland, in France, in Germany, typewriters did not normally have a key between the letter Z and the shift key.

I don't know much about typewriters, my commie past didn't include typewriters at home.

But I thought the regional letter placement on PC keyboard was probably derived from typewriters. The extra key that ended in PC105 keyboards between LShift and Z could be just a hack, if it was missing on the typewriter.

Just speculating, you can safely ignore that.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #73 on: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:52:55 »
Unless Quadibloc wants to correct me on this, it first reared its ugly head on the 3278 keyboard in the mid 70s. A definite regression over the rather sensible 3277 layout.

« Last Edit: Wed, 22 December 2010, 10:56:44 by ch_123 »

Offline Lenny_Nero

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« Reply #74 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 01:56:37 »
Quote from: dec.net;266964
Actually, while you're at it, why not ban languages other than english....


They haven't ?

We (Great Britain) really need to get back in charge of the world and put things right again :-p
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