Are Topre Switches Tactile?

[Ki Bored]

Ok, either I'm confused about what 'tactile' means, or I have a defective Realforce board, or my fingers are not sensitive enough, or I am on some kind of non-prescription medication.

I've played with my Topre Realforce 103UB (55g) on and off for about a month now, and everything I read (wikis, reviews, etc.) before I bought it said Topre switches are tactile but not clicky. I understand the non clicky part, but I don't get the tactile part.

When I press a Topre key, there is a very very slight bump about a quarter of the way down. But this is the same feel as on my $12. Belkin rubber dome. The general feel of the Topre downstroke is one of springyness, like a bungee cord that kind of sucks down and then plops back up-- like a toilet plunger.  I really don't feel or detect any kind of tactile point. I've never experienced a Cherry black, but if I was to characterize the Topre switch I would be inclined to describe it as linear.

So why are Topre's considered tactile?

[clickclack]

Yes indeed they are tactile, very much so in fact. It's just that they are very smooth and refined with a large bump. If you ever get the chance to try a black cherry switch (linear) you would definately understand that the Topre is tactile. Actually if you ever get to try a mechanical board that is purely linear (no progressive force) the black cherry feels pretty darn good and much different.

=)

[iMav]

I'll trade you, straight up for five, brand new, $12 keyboards if you'd like.  

Topre is not my all-time favorite switch, but I do like them quite a bit.  I would spend some dedicated time on your realforce if I were you.

[bpiphany]

I'd say the tactility of the topre switch lies in that the key registers when passing the hump rather than when bottoming out like on a regular membrane rubber dome.

[iMav]

I'd say the tactility of the topre switch lies in that the key registers when passing the hump rather than when bottoming out like on a regular membrane rubber dome.

Yep.  Tactile feedback simply means there is something you can feel (in this case, that "bump") that corresponds to the keyswitch being activated.

It keeps you from having to slam your fingers, full force, to the bottom of the keystroke to register a keypress.  Feedback (audible and tactile) allow you to let off on the key once you recognize the positive feedback that the key has been actuated...softening the force at the bottom, or even sometimes allowing you to not bottom out at all (if you so desire).

[Ki Bored]

Yes indeed they are tactile, very much so in fact. It's just that they are very smooth and refined with a large bump. If you ever get the chance to try a black cherry switch (linear) you would definately understand that the Topre is tactile. Actually if you ever get to try a mechanical board that is purely linear (no progressive force) the black cherry feels pretty darn good and much different.

=)

I'll trade you, straight up for five, brand new, $12 keyboards if you'd like.  

Topre is not my all-time favorite switch, but I do like them quite a bit.  I would spend some dedicated time on your realforce if I were you.

I'd say the tactility of the topre switch lies in that the key registers when passing the hump rather than when bottoming out like on a regular membrane rubber dome.

Yep.  Tactile feedback simply means there is something you can feel (in this case, that "bump") that corresponds to the keyswitch being activated.

It keeps you from having to slam your fingers, full force, to the bottom of the keystroke to register a keypress.  Feedback (audible and tactile) allow you to let off on the key once you recognize the positive feedback that the key has been actuated...softening the force at the bottom, or even sometimes allowing you to not bottom out at all (if you so desire).

Thanks. So rubber domes must be tactile too then. I don't have to slam my fingers all the way down on my Belkin either. The Topre is a very nice board, it's just I was expecting something a bit more tactile I guess.

You're not imagining it.  It's why the Topre is #3 on my list.  I prefer sharper tactile points.


Rubber Dome.

Show Image

Topre.

Show Image

Thanks. I was afraid my mind was going.

(btw ripster, don't take this the wrong way, but I think I'm in love with your avatar  :smile:)

[iMav]

The rubber dome is NOT tactile.  Note, the "bump" does not correspond with the actuation of the key switch.

[AndrewZorn]

I don't feel the tactile point on my HHKB.

[Ki Bored]

So merely the existence of a bump does not make the switch tactile?

[iMav]

So merely the existence of a bump does not make the switch tactile?

It's tactile FEEDBACK letting you know that the switch has been actuated.  If the feedback doesn't occur (roughly) when the key is actuated, by definition, that is not tactile feedback (or a tactile switch, for short).

[AndrewZorn]

But with a membrane keyboard, you know the switch actuated when the key slams down, so they're more tactile than my Topre.

[Pylon]

Not necessarily. If you're used to bottoming out (required on rubber domes), a tactile snap is enough response for you to know that you've registered a keystroke much of the time.

[Pylon]

Also, the whole point of a tactile point on a rubber dome is that you're either well above or well below the tactile point, but not at or near the point. On rubber domes, once you move past the tactile point, the force/displacement ratio should be very low (i.e. you get a lot of displacement for little force), and you should be crashing to the bottom. That's why it's sufficient indication that your keypress registered registered...it's very hard for me at least during normal typing on a rubber dome to be past the tactile point but not be bottomed out. It's an either/or. Either you're past the tactile point and bottomed out(and therefore registered) or you're not and you're above the point. Once you're past the point, it's almost a guaranteed bottom out.

[iMav]

Actually, the only point of the initial greater resistance at the top of a rubber dome keyboard's key travel is simply to stop inadvertent key actuation.  As pointed out above, the change in resistance does not correspond with the actuation of the key, and thus cannot be considered tactile feedback.

[Arc'xer]

Those who've used the 55g have noticed that they tend to bottom out a little more, compared to the lighter form like the 45g.

Similar to the mx brown; some including myself don't really feel the bump much. I mean it's there but kinda requires the right amount of force. So with the 55 the extra 10 grams of force does add up. I think even majestouch himself when he used the 55g mentioned something similar occurring for him at times.

[Oqsy]

I still don't *get* the Topre thing, but I've never typed on one.  It sure seems like a lot of fuss and a lot of dough for a rubber dome.

[keyboardlover]

I still don't *get* the Topre thing, but I've never typed on one.

That might have something to do with it.

[msiegel]

very interesting... this means there are essentially two classes of switches:

Tactile, where a bump always indicates switch actuation
Non-tactile, where switch actuation is not necessarily correlated with a bump

Tactile = BS, Topre
Non-tactile = ordinary rubber dome, linear
Tactile under usual typing conditions, but not always in extreme cases (i.e., gaming): most alps & cherry

[RoboKrikit]

I still don't *get* the Topre thing, but I've never typed on one.  It sure seems like a lot of fuss and a lot of dough for a rubber dome.

People say the same thing about any expensive keyboard.

[msiegel]

the switch gives tactile feedback when pressed

fair enough. i still prefer switches where the tactile feedback is integral to switch actuation, more like what imav was saying. there's just no term for that

[Arc'xer]

I still don't *get* the Topre thing, but I've never typed on one.  It sure seems like a lot of fuss and a lot of dough for a rubber dome.

It's too simplistic to call it a "rubber dome".

Technically speaking it's a quintuple hybrid switch: 1. capacitive electrode; 2. conical spring(5g force); 3. cup rubber(much higher quality, most of the force, and seems to be about a good 30-40% of the build costs); 4. housing(like a mechanical switch) and; 5. plunger(like a mechanical switch).

So in essence it combines best of both worlds. And the reliance on simplistic parts means it has a very long life(similar to hall-effect), even extendable over it's estimated EOL. If replacement dome mats were sold separately, as long as the electronics work.

I've been wanting a topre for a while but the multi-weighted and 55g similarity to mx black fatigue always made me question the purchase. Shame the cool yellow topre 45g isn't stocked at EKB or that xreal topre posted a few months back.

[msiegel]

It's too simplistic to call it a "rubber dome"

the funny thing is it has the same functional elements as ibm model f, with just two tweaks.

buckling element: rubber cup vs. buckling spring
conductive element: conical spring vs. flyplate

a clever variation of the same basic design

[Arc'xer]

? The cup  rubber is 30-40% of the build costs?

How did you get that number? - it's pretty standard stuff and someone just posted an almost identical rubber dome sheet from a cheap Japanese keyboard.

Although I do  agree that it is the quality of overall construction  and the capacitive switch point that makes it feel much better than a rubber dome.

Don't remember the thread I think someone was mentioning a 50-80ish area through a combination of the specific rubber and the shaping/molding of the domes.

[noctua]

If the switch becomes the electrical contact and gives you simultaneously an
feelable or auditible feedback, then you have an tactile switch. For example
an Morse taster is an good  example for an tactile switch.

Neither Topre nor blue cherry switches are tactile in this sense,
may the Buckling Spring Switch comes close to an tactile switch..

[iMav]

I don't agree with that.  Plenty of switches have a tactile bump in a different place than the actuation point yet I'd consider the switch tactile.

Show Image

That definition would make it so confusing nobody would have any idea what we are talking about.

It's simply the switch  gives tactile feedback when pressed (and I don't mean the bottoming out).  A scissor switch is tactile.  A mouse click is tactile and clicky.

I disagree.  "tactile" and "clicky" have always referred to the type of feedback provided when the key is actuated.  There are plenty of non-linear keyboards that aren't considered to provide tactile nor audible feedback.  

This is one the most basic and fundamental ideas around quality keyboards...the type of feedback provided to the user when the key is actuated.  Simply because "tactile" and "clicky" are used in short form does not change the fact that they refer to the two main types of key actuation feedback.  (and, yes, some switch types actuate closer to the feedback provided then others.)

[Lanx]

cnet never mentioned tactile
http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/realforce-103ub-55g-black/4505-3134_7-34426331.html
and got a 3/5 star.
of course the basic argument is 350$ and no usb hub?

[AndrewZorn]

cnet never mentioned tactile
http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/realforce-103ub-55g-black/4505-3134_7-34426331.html
and got a 3/5 star.
of course the basic argument is 350$ and no usb hub?

A USB hub is an accessory.  Its lack of presence should not be considered a problem.  Cars do not need to come with GPS, computers should not include bundle software, etc.

[taswyn]

Well, I still think Scissor switches are pretty tactile - in fact more so than Topres. At some point it does become semantics.

Well, if you use that definition of tactile, rubber domes in general are all amazingly tactile. Not only that, but then nothing beats bottoming out a rubber dome in tactility. BAM! Yes, you DID hit that key, it's done.

I tend to agree with iMav on this I think. While it all comes down to arguing about semantics in one sense, in another it's somewhat an important distinction to make when discussing tactility in keyboards. "Technically" anything could be called tactile in one sense or another, by the dictionary definition of the word (unless you get into some crazy no-touch device with cameras and lasers or even amazing holograms) if you wanted to be ultra pedantic, but I think most of what people care about when they discuss keyboards is tactile actuation feedback, and most of the time when they shorten to saying a keyboard is tactile or not I believe this is really what they're most frequently referring to.

Maybe we should all use an acronym, instead, though. Just for clarity's sake. Since you can never have enough TLAs, we'll call it TAF. Is your keyboard TAFy enough? Well... is it?

=^,^=



In all seriousness, though, I think the following things are the most important when discussing individual keypress behavior of a keyboard:

(1) Can you immediately tell that you've actuated a key by touch alone? (you may add auditory feedback if you wish)
(1.5) Is the point of actuation reliable enough that you can achieve actuation through muscle memory even without having a tactile response AT the point of actuation (like cherry linear keys apparently)?

(2) Force required to achieve actuation

(3) Does actuating a key require that your fingers be subjected to the sharp force of hitting an inflexible surface (bottoming out on most keyboards), including post actuation (some keyboards seem to actuate above bottoming out, but the pressure to pass the point of actuation makes bottoming out almost inevitable if the force to go from point of actuation to bottom suddenly drops precipitously compared to the force to reach actuation)

Since striking a surface in that manner repeatedly is certainly one thing which can cause RSIs.

(4) How quickly does the key return/rebound to a state where it's ready to be re-actuated? How much travel is required to achieve this state (full travel to the top or simply travel to anywhere above the point of actuation)?


That's the list I would make, anywho. Well, if just jotting one out anyway. Maybe I'll sit and think about it some more.

Oh yes, and of course

(5) Does teh keys is tehys for has nice feels?

=P


But yes, if there's a change in feeling at the point of actuation, I would call that keyboard tactile. Technically all rubber domes are tactile since you can feel it bottom out to actuate (and there's that point well before actuation--you can pass it without actuating on many if you care to--when they catastrophically collapse), but ahhhhh... *I* would tend to only say something is a "tactile keyboard" if it provides tactile actuation feedback which doesn't require or necessarily lead to hard bottoming out, personally. It's sort of a complicated description unfairly shortened, I guess. Oh well.

[Ki Bored]

Those who've used the 55g have noticed that they tend to bottom out a little more, compared to the lighter form like the 45g.

Similar to the mx brown; some including myself don't really feel the bump much. I mean it's there but kinda requires the right amount of force. So with the 55 the extra 10 grams of force does add up. I think even majestouch himself when he used the 55g mentioned something similar occurring for him at times.

So, that makes me wonder if I tried the Realforce 103u variable weight instead, would I feel the tactile bump more?

very interesting... this means there are essentially two classes of switches:

Tactile, where a bump always indicates switch actuation
Non-tactile, where switch actuation is not necessarily correlated with a bump

Tactile = BS, Topre
Non-tactile = ordinary rubber dome, linear
Tactile under usual typing conditions, but not always in extreme cases (i.e., gaming): most alps & cherry

This would move the Cherry browns out of the classification of tactile.

I disagree.  "tactile" and "clicky" have always referred to the type of feedback provided when the key is actuated.  There are plenty of non-linear keyboards that aren't considered to provide tactile nor audible feedback.  

But the actuation point is at different points along the downstroke even amongst paradigmatic tactile switches. Ripster gave the example of Cherry browns. How far away from the actuation point does the bump have to be to disqualify it from being classified as tactile? Is there a standard to appeal to for that distance?

cnet never mentioned tactile
http://reviews.cnet.com/keyboards/realforce-103ub-55g-black/4505-3134_7-34426331.html
and got a 3/5 star.
of course the basic argument is 350$ and no usb hub?

Very first line of the review reads: "The good: Fifty-five-gram weighted switches provide tactile appeal of mechanical keys without audible feedback; sturdy construction."

asdf....jkl;...typing on my Topre now....keys don't feel any different from my Belkin in any tactile way, in fact, less tactile. Maybe I need to try the lighter variable Realforce board...?

I keep going back and forth between using my Unicomp, my Das Cherry blues and my Topre, and the difference is night and day. The Topre feels like a luxurious rubber dome, but I''l be damned if I can 'feel' where the actuation point is without looking at the screen. I love how quiet the Topre is though. I can hear myself think as I write.

[msiegel]

is it possible on a Topre to get the bump without actuating the switch?

or vice versa?

[msiegel]

interesting

also, confirmed on the browns.  edit: and wayyy too easy on fukkas

what about BS... are they susceptible too?

[msiegel]

you can overanalyze this crap to death

:deadhorse: i think we've done an adequate job XD

since BS is the only switch with a guaranteed correlation between actuation and feedback, we should probably stick with your simpler definitions

[woody]

So, we kinda agree that "tactile bump" and "tactile actuation feedback" are off for most switches?
Of course, like Ripster mentioned, those typing with higher momentum (heavy typists) can't notice that, due to tiny fraction of time between the bump and activation, which is beyond brain perception.

These new retro-dial-thingie Realforces will hopefully fix the actuation point with regard to the bump. But why do it with a fugly dial?

[taswyn]

It's a good point that even on "tactile mechanical" keyboards you can pass the tactile point without actuating (barely) and one I at least hadn't really realized, despite having looked at the force diagrams. I'd still say that the actuation feedback is at least "tightly coupled" to the actuation itself in cherries and it seems like in topres too, versus most rubber domes where the major switch tactile bump is *well* above actuation (switch bottom). If you try to type on a rubber dome the way you would on cherry browns without bottoming out, you'll get no keystrokes, and it's much easier to do at normal typing speed on many rubber domes (that I've tried anyway) than it is to actuate a cherry without making a keypress, to me at least.

[iMav]

It's a good point that even on "tactile mechanical" keyboards you can pass the tactile point without actuating (barely) and one I at least hadn't really realized, despite having looked at the force diagrams. I'd still say that the actuation feedback is at least "tightly coupled" to the actuation itself in cherries and it seems like in topres too, versus most rubber domes where the major switch tactile bump is *well* above actuation (switch bottom). If you try to type on a rubber dome the way you would on cherry browns without bottoming out, you'll get no keystrokes, and it's much easier to do at normal typing speed on many rubber domes (that I've tried anyway) than it is to actuate a cherry without making a keypress, to me at least.

The design goal is to provide that feedback as near the actuation point as possible.  For all practical purposes, they should be the same to users during normal typing activities.  I think Cherry and Topre are pretty good (and, as mentioned before, BS is pretty much perfect due to the design).  Alps are probably the worst offenders for switches that are designed for tactile feedback.

[msiegel]

Alps are probably the worst offenders

+2

[woody]

The design goal is to provide that feedback as near the actuation point as possible.

Now that I think about it, after this sentence triggered something in my lazy brain, perhaps it's more "logical" to put the actuation point after the tactile bump. That is, feedback before the actuation.
Human servo loop is slow. By the time one has processed the feedback and starts decelerating, the finger is already past the point by much and probably close to bottoming out.
It all makes sense.

[taswyn]

Who wants to take over the ALPS wiki and figure out if the colors actually mean anything?

I bet they're different colors just to mess with the minds of anyone foolish enough to open one. It's the sort of thing I would do /nod

Except I would then make some switches of the same color behave slightly differently from each other. Mmmm. With no differentiating markings between the types. And randomly put an odd symbol on the stem of every 30th key or such. Some sort of runes or something similar, just a single one on any given switch. *rubs her hands together*

I wonder if you could sell it under a Cthulu label? I think it would need some sort of recording device hidden in it so you could witness the ensuing madness among poor keyboard fanatics. Maybe it could automagically make a blog for each user as soon as it was opened and self-update with a documentary of their decline. You know, I'm sure a teensy could handle something like that, with a CCD connected to it. Extra points for hiding a speaker in the keyboard case and have it randomly make very quiet creaking noises when not in use.



You see, ALPS ~could~ be worse. Or are they? dun dun dun.

[msiegel]

some sort of recording device hidden in it so you could witness the ensuing madness

:lol: friend request sent

[typo]

i would not say it has tactile feel. it is more linear. which is why it is not my favorite keyboard. it just so happens to be one of the best keyboards overall. thats why i always come back to it. they probably type more than most of us in a japanese bank and they don't complain. i guess the more i use it i will get used to it. it just does not have the snap way before you bottom out like the blues do.

[PRISONER 24601]

ALPS are great....
but...
They get dirty/frictiony/worn down easily, like, after only one year of use.
Which explains why so many AZN guys spend countless hours modding and fiddling with them. They ARE restorable, it just takes a few hours of patience.

So let me change my original point there:
FRESH ALPS are great.

Oh, and Topre switches are in fact tactile. Duh. They're f**king rubber domes. All rubber domes are tactile.

[taswyn]

at OCN and then

You keep bringing up this mysterious Oh Cee En place of which I remain willfully ignorant, I always feel like you're regretful with nearly every post you make here that it wasn't time spent there instead, as if you were wistfully dreaming of a place closer to your heart than here, and couldn't help talking about it =(

( =^,^= )

[taswyn]

I wistfully dream of their news coverage. So much better than ours.

I know, right? Not only that, but they've ALSO figured out how to gainfully employ all of those Sims players. Amazing! In the US we just have them play Farmville at work, but most companies haven't figured out how to incorporate that into their revenue streams =/ TWO BIRDS ONE STONE CONFUCIUS SAY RICOCHET FOR GREAT WIN

[Lanx]

OCN news prolly fact checks better than fox news and get's their point across in a more elegant way instead of having pseudo redneck reporters(the guys) yell and scream tarnation while the pretty blond I(also news anchor ) girls nod in agreement cuz they aren't allowed to formulate their own opinions.

i mean look at the million dollar drop fiasco.

[Oqsy]

Ripster: do you still own an ALPS board in working order?  If so, please follow my advice from the lubricating ALPS switches thread, and see if your opinion of them doesn't change for the better.  My only complaints about my Northgate Omnikey 102 are that it's not quite heavy enough to pull it's own satellites into orbit around it, and the space bar is a bit too wobbly.

iMav: I put the same question to you.  

I can make a complicated white ALPS switch click without actuating if i move slowly enough with gentle downward force increasing gradually until I feel / hear the click, but I would *NEVER* in normal circumstances need to use the keyboard in this manner.  I've found the same effect on Cherry MX blues, NMB space invaders, and Cherry MLs.  Being able to manipulate the switch into an unintended state through unrealistically slow increase in pressure doesn't make the switch better or worse unless you're dealing with VERY specific thresholds for a VERY good reason, ie some REALLY intense gaming scenario I suppose, but even then, if tactility + actuation MUST be in sync, the ONLY switch worth considering is BS.  

Oh, and for the record, NMB switches are FAR less reliable as far as actuation point relative to tactility / audible feedback than ALPS, although I don't think anyone here really counts them as a mechanical switch that *matters*.

[iMav]

iMav: I put the same question to you.

I actually enjoy the alps keyboards I have.  Just pointing out that, of the various mechanical switches I've used, they have the greatest discrepency between tactile feedback and key actuation.  In real world typing though, it is not bothersome at all to me.

[keyb_gr]

As mentioned, the discrepancy between tactility and actuation really is the least problem in ALPS switches (I haven't noticed it in regular use). They appear a relatively poor construction, some other designs show that the Japanese can do better. I guess it had to do with pricing, it appears the simplified versions in particular were dirt cheap for mechanicals.

[typo]

i actually think the new keytronics feel a lot like the realforce(shoot me). of course a capacitive switch is far superior. topre does say the feel is from the cup rubber. the spring is just the electrical contact according to them.

i have said a hundred times i prefer blues. the problem is cherry switches and the boards that they find their way into are not superior quality.

many companies in the us use cherrys. it is the stateside counterpart of the japanese companies using topres. still, i find most companies are using $10 keyboards.
not as many people type for a living anymore.

for robustness i'll take the m or unicomp. i just don't prefer the feel. anyways, if the das and filco last 5 years they were worth the benjamin. even though topre is rated less cycles it seems to last longer. go figure. i know this was about feel and not longevity but it is a lot of money for a keyboard as well. so i'd factor that in.

[microsoft windows]

The older Dell Quietkeys from the mid-1990's are good rubber domes. They feel just like brown Cherries except with a larger tactile bump a little earlier in the keystroke.

[Pylon]

The older Dell Quietkeys from the mid-1990's are good rubber domes. They feel just like brown Cherries except with a larger tactile bump a little earlier in the keystroke.

You want the made in Thailand RT7D5JTW-variant (which I've been endlessly pushing), which is ridiculously tactile for a domer. The SK-8000 and other Quietkeys are mediocre by comparison.