Author Topic: My First Mechanical Keyboard (Read 11164 times)

Sheepy · « **on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 09:39:36 »

(no its not a new product from Fischer Price)

After almost a week of deliberation, I settled on a Filco with Browns. I really like it, although im not sure I made the right decision. I originally was planning on getting blues but ended up getting browns because I love to play Starcraft 2 and heard they were generally more suited for it. I think what I feel isn't quite perfect is they're a touch too light and I expected the browns to have more of a click feel?

The thing is I could probably pay a $30 return fee and get the blues if I really wanted. Do the blues have a MUCH more pronounced click feel or is it generally the same type of "bump" just stronger? I normally wouldn't bother so much, but for $200 I'd like the keyboard to be perfect

perhaps I just need to settle into it...

Twitchy · « **Reply #1 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 09:55:17 »

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sixty · « **Reply #2 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 09:58:30 »

Quote from: Sheepy

The thing is I could probably pay a $30 return fee and get the blues if I really wanted. Do the blues have a MUCH more pronounced click feel or is it generally the same type of "bump" just stronger? I normally wouldn't bother so much, but for $200 I'd like the keyboard to be perfect

I had the very same feel of disappointment when I got my first mechanical (A Filco back then) for nearly $200 after import tax. It was a brown switch one too. Few days later I gave in and ordered a blue switch one. It was then that I actually saw the light. Ditch the brown, get a blue. You are most likely going to be very happy.

Twitchy · « **Reply #3 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 10:01:36 »

In lieu of an expert (edit: oh hello sixty, didn't see you there!) you may find your answer in this thread:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=93298#post93298

I think you're right though, you may just need some time to acclimatise.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #4 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 10:06:20 »

Haha Twitchy. Nice auto reply.

I think the tactile feedback on blues is much more noticeable than the one on browns. And as ripster mentioned, the tactile feedback point on blues is really sharp, instead of the subtle bump on the browns. I find it much more enjoyable to type on a blue switch overall (even if I use headphones and don't hear the actual click).

PikachuDX · « **Reply #5 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 10:06:44 »

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steeef · « **Reply #6 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 10:28:02 »

If you have the budget for it, you could buy a board with blues and compare, then sell the one you don't want to keep in our Classifieds or on EBay. You'll certainly earn your money back.

Sheepy · « **Reply #7 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 14:36:07 »

Thanks for the advice, I'll wait until tonight to decide if I want to keep it and then I'll then send them an email. It could end up being a pain as I ordered from them on their last day of business, and it'll be about a week before they re-open.

Oh also, interestingly , I ended up picking the black at the last moment, when I was originally going for the limited edition metallic blue, it just looked a tad too cheezy at the last moment.

P.s in terms of Starcraft 2, I've heard people having double tap but I am an average silver league player and some people have been unable to even find this double tap problem. Also the holding down of buttons, but..after feeling how amazingly light the browns are, I could use the extra 5gm! (Funnily though a majority of SC2 pros with filcos use browns! >_>)

db_Iodine · « **Reply #8 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 14:57:18 »

Whether you choose blues or browns, it will most likely not affect your results in SC2 at all. It's not the keyboard that makes you a good player.

BlueRain · « **Reply #9 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 14:59:46 »

It definitely could be psychological though. I've been on a losing streak ever since I returned my Blackwidow

kidchunks · « **Reply #10 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 15:10:36 »

Like some have mentioned, buy a cheap board with blues (rosewill..o wait sold out!) and compare. Sell the one you dislike. I swore by blues for awhile then some how the browns grew on me. Now I'm sticking with them.

Computer-Lab in Basement · « **Reply #11 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 15:19:38 »

I personally diskliked the Browns, they were too low-force for me and they weren't as clicky as I would have liked. I prefer the buckling springs on my Model M, they are a higher force switch and I have to say I prefer the loud clicks.

Sheepy · « **Reply #12 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 15:25:42 »

Yeah with SC2 I was more worried about comfort. Also something else, I thought all the majestouch keyboards came with red esc keys?

kidchunks · « **Reply #13 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 15:39:36 »

Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement;267977

I personally diskliked the Browns, they were too low-force for me and they weren't as clicky as I would have liked. I prefer the buckling springs on my Model M, they are a higher force switch and I have to say I prefer the loud clicks.

The Model M has a clack(click) sound that you grow to love. Them blues on the other hand have a high chirp which I couldn't stand after a few weeks.

Sheepy · « **Reply #14 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 15:57:17 »

Quote from: kidchunks;267988

The Model M has a clack(click) sound that you grow to love. Them blues on the other hand have a high chirp which I couldn't stand after a few weeks.

ahh its quite high pitched isn't it? Ugh I will never be satisfied xD

ynih · « **Reply #15 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:26:11 »

The blues have more of a bump feel to them than the brown, IMO. Also, the audible click makes me *feel* it's less light of a board than browns.

typo · « **Reply #16 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:36:08 »

blues for the win. blues are my favorite switch bar none. they have plenty of resistance and click loud! i feel realforce is a better board overall than anything new that has blues. it is just not stiff enough for me.

keyboardlover · « **Reply #17 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:12:55 »

Quote from: typo;268017

it is just not stiff enough for me.

What a coincidence, that's what SHE said.

msiegel · « **Reply #18 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:38:22 »

Quote from: keyboardlover;268035

that's what SHE said

obligatory: "with this rubber dome i just don't get enough tactile feedback"

/that's what HE said

keyboardlover · « **Reply #19 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 20:41:16 »

I love me some tactile feedback. Especially when I'm bottoming out.

Shuki · « **Reply #20 on:** Thu, 23 December 2010, 21:04:47 »

If you're bottoming out I would expect lots of audible feedback as well.

elef · « **Reply #21 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 05:04:18 »

Quote from: Sheepy;267761

(no its not a new product from Fischer Price)

After almost a week of deliberation, I settled on a Filco with Browns. I really like it, although im not sure I made the right decision. I originally was planning on getting blues but ended up getting browns because I love to play Starcraft 2 and heard they were generally more suited for it. I think what I feel isn't quite perfect is they're a touch too light and I expected the browns to have more of a click feel?

The thing is I could probably pay a $30 return fee and get the blues if I really wanted. Do the blues have a MUCH more pronounced click feel or is it generally the same type of "bump" just stronger? I normally wouldn't bother so much, but for $200 I'd like the keyboard to be perfect

perhaps I just need to settle into it...

I'm in the exact same situation. After a few weeks, I'm now much happier with the browns than I initially was (my typing style adapted to the switches to some extent and now I'm typing on this faster than on anything before). Still, I think I would prefer blues, unless the noise proves to be too much for me and my family.
I'll probably get blues, compare and then keep one and sell the other. If you can do that, that's probably the best solution.
You may end up preferring the browns to the blues in the end. If you send the browns back now, you may end up buying browns again a month from now, wasting even more money. If you can find a cheap used keyboard with blues, that's probably the best solution.

Sheepy · « **Reply #22 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 05:42:40 »

Well luckily I've kept the board in pristine condition and I've sent them an email about it. I don't know I'm pretty sure I'd prefer the blues as they're not THAT different.

I'll probably pay $30 in restocking fees, and I may end up having to pay for shipping it back, actually they're local so I could always drive.

elef · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 07:24:32 »

^They are loud as hell though. If that's guaranteed not to be an issue, I guess you're not taking much of a chance.

Sheepy · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 07:34:29 »

Eh my room is right next to my parents, but I dont think it'll be too loud. I hope? I'm more after a stronger tactile click than anything.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 08:16:04 »

Blues aren't loud as hell. They make noice yes, but it's not like it's going to disturb people in the next room.

Sheepy · « **Reply #26 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 09:16:18 »

Quote from: db_Iodine;268255

Blues aren't loud as hell. They make noice yes, but it's not like it's going to disturb people in the next room.

I hear a lot of both actually! Some people say is unbearable some people say they were surprised it wasn't that loud.

For me I think it won't be that loud. If anyone complains, my keyboard is sturdy enough to wack someone across the head with.

woody · « **Reply #27 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:09:30 »

Quote from: Sheepy;268274

Some people say is unbearable some people say they were surprised it wasn't that loud.

Some people like males, some like females. Go figure.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #28 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 15:15:56 »

Some people even like both. That kind of compares to people who like multiple key switches.

NamelessPFG · « **Reply #29 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 18:21:10 »

I personally don't like the Browns that much. The tactile bump is so insignificant it might as well have been a linear Red.

The Clears, on the other hand...now THOSE are what I wanted out of the Browns. Good luck getting a board with them, though.

The Blues are a good second choice to me, though, since I don't mind the noise too much. However, the really odd part is that the Blues on my new DSI Modular Mac don't feel quite like the Blues on SirClickAlot's Switch Try Numpad (based on a Cherry G80-3700HA*cannot read the last three letters*) in terms of the tactile bump during actuation and release. Basically, that bump-especially release-feels much more substantial on the DSIMM. Even the STN's own switches tend to feel a tad different.

Azuremen · « **Reply #30 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 18:32:50 »

Quote from: NamelessPFG;268458

I personally don't like the Browns that much. The tactile bump is so insignificant it might as well have been a linear Red.

The Clears, on the other hand...now THOSE are what I wanted out of the Browns. Good luck getting a board with them, though.

I am curious how the tactile feel of the Clears compares to Blues... been looking at them more and more.

As for SC2, it plays great with the Blues and the only reason everyone was talking about Browns is because of FruitDealer, who doesn't actually use Browns (from what it looks like) anyhow. But Tester does, so its okay. And apparently, Slayers_BoxeR uses Blues.

But it really does come down to personal preference. In my opinion, Blues are the best switch for damn near everything. Unless you have a girl sleeping in the room. Unless she fell asleep to the sound of Blues...

NamelessPFG · « **Reply #31 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 19:08:05 »

The Clears have an overall resistance closer to the Blacks (but not quite), so the tactile bump may come across as just a touch stiff...but the important thing to me is that it can actually be felt with ease, just like the Blues and buckling springs.

Of course, they're much quieter, which is a quite a surprise to me, being accustomed to switches with any significant tactility being audibly clicky as a side effect.

Azuremen · « **Reply #32 on:** Fri, 24 December 2010, 23:20:51 »

Quote from: NamelessPFG;268474

The Clears have an overall resistance closer to the Blacks (but not quite), so the tactile bump may come across as just a touch stiff...but the important thing to me is that it can actually be felt with ease, just like the Blues and buckling springs.

Of course, they're much quieter, which is a quite a surprise to me, being accustomed to switches with any significant tactility being audibly clicky as a side effect.

Well Blacks don't feel that bad, just how much the force increases at the bottom out is what I don't care for. I wouldn't mind having Browns with a notable bump, since I can barely feel it usually. Hell, first Browns I touched where on my Kinesis before I bought it from surplus and I didn't even notice they were mechanical switches till I popped a keycap off :redface:

flashstar · « **Reply #33 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 01:04:58 »

I have been using an Unicomp Model M for a year now and had grown accustomed to the stiffness of the keys and the loud noise until I picked up a Northgate Omnikey Ultra. After cleaning all of the keyswitches, the complicated ALPS switches felt quite a bit lighter than the Model M with and had much more uniform key resistance.

When I realized that I could never get these old white ALPS back to their original condition, I ordered some blue complicated ALPS from didjamatic. Surprisingly, these blue ALPS felt even better than the white ones that I had become accustomed to. When you start typing, it's like the keyboard disappears completely. It's so comfortable that it felt like I could type for days (even with my mediocre typing skills). I spent around 6 hours transporting the blue ALPS to my Omnikey and the time was well worth it.

I stopped by Fry's electronics recently in order to pick up a mouse for my parents for Christmas and I got a chance to try out a couple of the mechanical keyboards that they had in stock. After trying three models (the Black Widow, the Steelseries 7g, and another $90 generic model), their key feel was nowhere near as good as the blue ALPS that I installed in my Omnikey Ultra.

The Black Widow and the generic Cherry blue keyboard have a lighter touch than my Model M but their keys feel a tad "mushy" and "hollow". The Steelseries 7g on the other hand is below my expectations for a mechanical keyboard. Its keys feel like old dome switches since they have no noticeable tactile bump and are a bit too stiff.

I know that blue complicated ALPS are no longer available for purchase, but I still recommend them over any modern keyswitch. Cherry Blues are probably the best modern switch for most situations, but there is still better stuff out there! It just depends on how dedicated you are to getting it.

Crypt · « **Reply #34 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 01:27:40 »

I've had an interesting reaction to SC2 after getting my Filco (blue.) It has definitely made me WORSE at the game. This might only apply to me, though, as I have a unique way of using CTRL. I hit CTRL with the side of my palm instead of using a finger, so it's like having an extra finger sometimes, and I can keep my fingers on the homerow. However, the Filco has a very small control. The ctrl/win/alt keys are all the same size. This might be a Cherry standard, though.

Anyway, I end up hitting the windows key regularly now. Prior to this, I have never ever hit the windows key in my very extensive gaming history. I'm tempted to map the win key to control so that I can use my method still and just mash either button with my palm.

As for key feel, I was definitely expecting stiffer keys. It actually feels quite cushy to me. I do find myself missing certain qualities of my Model M with double keycaps. They're different animals. I wanted a tenkeyless and lower profile case, though, so I got the Filco. Perhaps one day, I'll be like "one of those crazy GHers" with multiple keyboards depending on mood.

BlueRain · « **Reply #35 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 02:09:33 »

Wow! Never thought of doing that before, now I must try. I do dislike shifting my hand to do a control group combination.

Quote from: Crypt;268558

I've had an interesting reaction to SC2 after getting my Filco (blue.) It has definitely made me WORSE at the game. This might only apply to me, though, as I have a unique way of using CTRL. I hit CTRL with the side of my palm instead of using a finger, so it's like having an extra finger sometimes, and I can keep my fingers on the homerow. However, the Filco has a very small control. The ctrl/win/alt keys are all the same size. This might be a Cherry standard, though.

Sheepy · « **Reply #36 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 02:44:43 »

For me the most immediate difference besides the lightness was the feel of the springs. They spring back a lot more cleanly.

Crypt · « **Reply #37 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 03:03:31 »

Another thing about the blues is, the clicky doesn't quite sound that good, IMO. However, if you bottom out the keys, it sounds much better/richer. My very last keyboard was low profile, so I'm used to short keystrokes and not bottoming out on the Filco, except on the spacebar...apparently, I slam it pretty hard, lol. I certainly see a lot of sense in using black switches on modifier keys now, like one of the Ducky keyboards does.

Quote from: BlueRain;268562

Wow! Never thought of doing that before, now I must try. I do dislike shifting my hand to do a control group combination.

I used to walk a lot in Counterstrike by holding down CTRL, so that's how that started. All of my friends didn't have the same problem, as they used their ring fingers on 'a', so their pinky was free for the modifier key. I always have pinky on 'a'. ESDF kinda makes sense, too, but there's something about it that I don't like. I haven't given a real attempt at it, though.

woody · « **Reply #38 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 03:18:58 »

Quote from: Crypt;268558

I hit CTRL with the side of my palm instead of using a finger, so it's like having an extra finger sometimes, and I can keep my fingers on the homerow.

I finally have a follower. Been doing that since the PC101 keyboard came out.
Funny that you're a gamer, though.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #39 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 03:27:40 »

Okay, I just had to try using ctrl with the side of my palm. It's frigging impossible! I guess it has something to do with having big hands and long fingers, but I really need to reach my palm if I want to hit the ctrl that way.

elef · « **Reply #40 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 03:37:12 »

I've been doing that for years, and I'm doing that now on my new Filco. No problem whatsoever, it was fine from day 1. I use it for Ctrl-F, Ctrl-N Ctrl-T and Ctrl-S for standard features in word processors, text editors and webbrowsers. I.e. I don't use it in gamer's button-mashing frenzy, just day-to-day computing, so that probably helps.

woody · « **Reply #41 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 03:46:09 »

Quote from: db_Iodine;268573

Okay, I just had to try using ctrl with the side of my palm. It's frigging impossible! I guess it has something to do with having big hands and long fingers, but I really need to reach my palm if I want to hit the ctrl that way.

Take a look at your palm - there is the uppermost wrinkle (line) , just below the fingers. Try to place it's corner on the bottom-left corner of CTRL. Just a hint, you'll find your proper position with time. You press with a slight twist of the palm, kinda in the direction of the lowermost pinky joint.

And member elef makes us 3 so far. Good.

bladamson · « **Reply #42 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 03:54:39 »

I can't do it and still hit DC1 accurately without my pinky flying out like I'm drinking tea with the Queen or something (Elizabeth that is, not Freddie. Unfortunately.

). For me, I think it's easier to keep the capslock and right-ctrl mapping switched. :3

db_Iodine · « **Reply #43 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 04:03:19 »

Quote from: woody;268579

Take a look at your palm - there is the uppermost wrinkle (line) , just below the fingers. Try to place it's corner on the bottom-left corner of CTRL. Just a hint, you'll find your proper position with time. You press with a slight twist of the palm, kinda in the direction of the lowermost pinky joint.

And member elef makes us 3 so far. Good.

I just can't keep the rest of my fingers steady as I have to bend my hand to a very awkward position. Like I said this must have something to do with bigger than average hands. I'll just stick to using ctrl with my pinky.

woody · « **Reply #44 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 04:33:25 »

Don't really know about palm/finger size. I think it's most important that the thing grows on you.
As I've already written before, it was never my intent. I don't put any thought into typing, it's not the orthodox 10-finger style, and I sorta glide over the keys. The surprise came when one day I just looked down at the keyboard and saw me doing it this way.

@db_lodine: the palm still stays on the CTRL and the push is done via the palm (underneath), not the side. Target the lower-left corner of CTRL. If your palm stays in the axis of the forearm (not tilted), you just give both your forearm and palm a small twist to the left. Perhaps there is a proper term which I don't know.

In any case, if it doesn't work naturally for you, just ignore it.

The usual OT derail - recently I tried and liked rye crispbread made in Espoo.

db_Iodine · « **Reply #45 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 05:37:15 »

I understand how you do this, but I need to twist my wrist into a really uncomfortable position in order to do this.

Sheepy · « **Reply #46 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 06:24:32 »

This is really interesting for me, as I feel most people don't get taught the "standard way". Well for me it was totally a self adaption, with just enough use it just "happened", I dont even remember when I could first touch type.

So I think there are a lot of differences that make each persons style unique. I never got the hover over the ASDF and JKL: keys thing, my hands fly around the board kinda all over the place. Pink for CTRL for me too.

Findecanor · « **Reply #47 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 07:23:22 »

Quote from: Azuremen;268463

I am curious how the tactile feel of the Clears compares to Blues... been looking at them more and more.

I think that they feel much different.

To me, the Clears feel like you are using a low-profile scissor switch/rubber dome keyboard with a short tactile bump at the top but instead of bottoming out against the plate when the switch actuates there is instead increasing resistance like on a Model M. The keys have a distinct tactile feel and I don't bottom out on Cherry Clears -- and I love that.
If you look at the force graph, you may think that it would resemble a mushy rubber dome having that resistance after the tactile bump, but it is not like that at all because the increase is much higher and you have actuated and had both tactile and visual feedback from the actuation.
However, the clears are quite frictiony. I thought that my ALPS were frictiony, but my Clears feel worse. I hope that there would be a good way to lubricate them ...

The Blues, on the other hand, feel to me as if they are light and linear but with just a sharp click in the middle of the stroke. On the Clears I will press down to the tactile point and then stop but on the blues I always press "through" the click. I found that I bottomed out on my Blues quite often, so I dampened them with denture bands.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #48 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 09:24:50 »

Quote from: Findecanor;268619

However, the clears are quite frictiony. I thought that my ALPS were frictiony, but my Clears feel worse. I hope that there would be a good way to lubricate them ...

Clears rougher than ALPS? No way. I have two boards with them, and their feel is consistent, only the sound varies slightly. The thin-walled modern-day light grey Cherry keys give off more annoying high-pitched noises than their thicker older counterparts. The effect of keycaps is even more pronounced on blues, which can be quite wimpy-sounding with thin ones. (IIRC people also preferred AEKII keycaps to AT101W ones.)

Quote from: Findecanor;268619

The Blues, on the other hand, feel to me as if they are light and linear but with just a sharp click in the middle of the stroke.

They can feel like that when pressed sufficiently quickly, yes. The tactile bump is quite sharp.

Daniel Beardsmore · « **Reply #49 on:** Sat, 25 December 2010, 10:36:07 »

Been using both blues and browns since around February. Browns take a lot of getting used to! I had the same reaction at first – they just felt linear, and almost unbearably light. After years of pounding away on rubberdomes, I was slamming the keys so hard that it was impossible to feel the tactile bump. (My first ever computer, that I got around ~1990 used Cherry linears -- I never realised until this year that the keys had mid-travel actuation, as I went over and tested this out on a machine I still possess. They're also unpleasant enough to put me off linear forever.)

If I get into the swing of browns, though, they're very pleasant to type on and the tactile feel comes across nicely. You just have to be gentle with them.

I do find the tactile mechanism to be quite scrapy in browns, and this doesn't wear off like someone here said it would. If you press browns too lightly you can hear and feel the friction in the wedge that provides the tactile bump.

For whatever reason, although blues have a stronger version of the same mechanism, they're free from both the scrape sound and spongey feel of browns. The click is, though, a little irritating, whereas blue ALPS sound a lot deeper. I don't know whether my Tulip 286 keyboard is complicated or simplified blue ALPS, but it's a nice keyboard, and my first ever clicky. I'm getting a Fukka clicky in the new year, will be interesting to see how it compares to blues.

The main video on YouTube of the Matias Tactile Pro 3 also has the same deep metallic ringing that I get off my FILCO brown board. Again, seems to be more of a brown thing than a blue thing.

Blue or brown? Probably blue, but they're a bit noisy for an open plan office, and browns are very enjoyable if you can adjust to them, and the lighter tactile feel comes into its own.

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Author Topic: My First Mechanical Keyboard (Read 11164 times)

woody

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