Author Topic: J-Shaped Return Keys  (Read 34807 times)

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Offline dacm

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J-Shaped Return Keys
« on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:47:33 »
I like the idea of J-shaped return keys. To me they represent the best of both worlds of ANSI & ISO layouts. (Though they do often lead to miniature backspace keys. :-( ) I also remember using them at some point in the past, and liking them.

Now my problem is that (AFAIK) no modern mechanical board (that is good for typing) has them. So I'm wondering if I could mod a board to provide one.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this? I was thinking that it should be possible if I could source a return key from a Model F AT:



But I have no clue where to find one. :-( (Except buying an entire Model F!) Anyone got any ideas? Is my idea completely brain dead in the first place? (I'd probably be modding a UK layout Model M or Unicomp.)
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:50:03 by dacm »

Offline Minskleip

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« Reply #1 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 16:53:40 »
I think Steelseries has it.
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Offline Pylon

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« Reply #2 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:04:00 »
As do a ton of Alps boards, both old ones, and new ones like the KB-6600 and the Avant Prime.

Offline Pylon

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« Reply #3 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:06:11 »
It also might be possible to modify a Unicomp or a Model M to a large enter key, if you can manage to obtain a J-shaped enter (I'm not aware of any that were made).

See:
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:7046

Offline Zen

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« Reply #4 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:10:40 »
Quote from: Minskleip;268027
I think Steelseries has it.


Indeed they do :



I also like it, but it's a pain if you want to swap keycaps...

Offline Minskleip

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« Reply #5 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:13:04 »
The boards at 5k177 has it too http://5k177.com/more/
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Offline dacm

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« Reply #6 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:35:38 »
Quote from: Zen;268034
Indeed they do :

I also like it, but it's a pain if you want to swap keycaps...


Steelseries is Cherry Blacks right?

Are they different heights to Filcos? (I have a majestouch in addition to a model m.) I'd imagine it would be quite hard to change the shape of keys on top of MX switches anyway. (As I guess you were hinting at.)

Offline Zen

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« Reply #7 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:45:15 »
Yes, they use Blacks .
Not sure about the height compared to Filco, but the caps are quite 'tall' .
I have 3 different makes of keycaps mounted on my G6v2 right now, I'll
post some photos tomorrow when the lighting is better so you can see the problem ..

Offline Sam

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« Reply #8 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:50:05 »
The old IBM 122-key terminal boards have a somewhat J-shaped Enter.  It's basically a vertical Enter with a little nub on the left.  Some of these boards can be interfaced to modern PC's.  Not sure if that little nub helps you any though.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #9 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:56:27 »
The 122-key has a standard ISO-style enter.

@OP: There's no shortage of modern mech keyboards (particularly from Asia) that have these. None of them have anything on the Model F in your pic.
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 17:58:48 by ch_123 »

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #10 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:04:32 »
But the ISO enter key is retarded and a pain to use. I hope inverted L/J-shaped enter keys take over.
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Offline Sam

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« Reply #11 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:10:16 »
The inverted-L Enters are very common in Korea.  All the Samsung boards I've seen have these, although they're all rubber dome.  So they are somewhat standard for some people.  I actually like them myself, but perhaps that's because I like the IBM AT board.

Offline Milquetoast

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« Reply #12 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:13:30 »
Whatever name you call them, L shaped enter keys are a tool of the Devil.

If we were meant to press giant enter keys, we would have evolved/been created with bulbous, clublike pinky fingers.

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« Reply #13 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:15:19 »
But remember, a large Enter key can be pressed in many places, conforming to many peoples' typing  habits as long as there isn't the tine Backspace key.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #14 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:18:28 »
Quote from: Milquetoast;268077
Whatever name you call them, L shaped enter keys are a tool of the Devil.

If we were meant to press giant enter keys, we would have evolved/been created with bulbous, clublike pinky fingers.




?

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #15 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:20:43 »
That is the trouble. The gain from the larger Enter key is far outweighed by the loss from a backspace key that is hard to reach. (And the Steelseries keyboard illustrated instead has a hard-to-reach right-hand Shift key.)

The ANSI keyboard is good, but a larger Enter key would be even better, if it were achieved without disturbing any of the other important keys. There are such keyboards, ones which move |\ to the right of the right-hand shift key; a multimedia keyboard from Best Buy was an example of that.

However, the extra part added to the Enter key is far away, so it's not that important. An ISO style Enter, but moved over one key to the left, would be the ideal. But that is not available as far as I know, and since that arrangement loses the ability to put {[ immediately to the left of }], it's not surprising that it isn't.

Ah, I see that while I was typing, someone posted a photo of the Selectric I, with the one true Enter key.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #16 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:34:53 »
Personally, I think the best arrangement would be to have a backwards-L enter, and to shorten the length of right shift, and place the \| key beside right shift.

European Samsung netbooks move the extra key on the ISO layout from beside left shift, to beside right shift.


Offline dacm

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« Reply #17 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:44:08 »
After reading another thread I'm starting to think that the best solution would be to move the letter keys closer to an ISO return key. That way you still have vertical return loveliness but with less pinky travel when touch-typing.

As for a larger return key ruining the layout elsewhere, I was initially intending to lose a key rather than reduce the size of another important key.

Oh, and I think this idea that `small pinky => small return key' is completely daft. It's about the accuracy of your fingers not their size. I know I'm less accurate with my pinky so it's nice to have a wide margin for error. (Also vertical return is lovely for non-touch-typing situations too I find.)
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:47:42 by dacm »

Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #18 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 18:46:44 »
My solution--Have a large Enter key and split the right Shift key with Shift and \|.
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Offline Milquetoast

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« Reply #19 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:10:19 »
Quote from: ch_123;268081
Show Image


?


Well, it hasn't got an L-shaped enter key, but it is red, which is the color of the devil. I'd suggest killing it with fire, but I suspect that thing isn't killable.

Quote from: quadibloc;268084
There are such keyboards, ones which move |\ to the right of the right-hand shift key; a multimedia keyboard from Best Buy was an example of that.


That is either a tool of the devil, or a communist plot. I'm not sure which. It certainly isn't a layout designed by a Unix user.

Offline taswyn

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« Reply #20 on: Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:24:44 »
Personally I don't like them, I feel like the larger key often leads to stability issues on many keyboards I've tried that use them. Maybe some boards have better stabilizers/switch placement than others for those giant return keys, though, and I've only tried boards where the key was crappily stabilized, or had suffered some damage/poor wear? The only time I've used anything with them were old terminal style keyboards, so it could entirely just be that.

edit: somehow I missed the second page. I blame the cold >.< That typewriter is hypnotic and now I want one D: random extra thought: there should be a crusade to returning to LF + RT as separate keys instead of this newfangled enter key business!
« Last Edit: Thu, 23 December 2010, 19:37:52 by taswyn »

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #21 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 00:41:16 »
i noticed that all the POS keyboards at the stores i went to for xmas shopping had inverted L's. (aside from the computer/dell/pos quietkey computers)
nike had their own branded pos keyboard, looked like a 58 xkey. (but of course nicer looking the xkeys are dog ugly)

Offline Zen

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« Reply #22 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 05:03:57 »

Offline AndrewZorn

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« Reply #23 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 08:38:30 »
Enter keys this large are for clumsy morons.  Please don't make manufacturers think this is desirable.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #24 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 11:04:55 »
I feel the same way about double-width backspaces, and full sized left shifts.

Offline Daniel Beaver

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« Reply #25 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:06:21 »
Quote
Personally I don't like them, I feel like the larger key often leads to stability issues on many keyboards I've tried that use them.

Absolutely the same problem I have with them. ISO and ANSI style enter keys are simple to stabilize, whilst many J-shaped enter keys have friction issues due to poorly placed stabilizers.

J-shaped and vertical (iso) enter keys always struck me as strange. The ANSI enter key is the easiest to reach, and has the advantage of a large backspace.

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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #26 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 12:11:07 »
As discussed above, a backward-L enter and a large backspace are not mutually exclusive.

I think the location of \| on US layout keyboards isn't completely ideal for people who do programming. Between /? and Right Shift is the best one I've seen.

Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #27 on: Fri, 24 December 2010, 15:09:58 »
In non-English European layouts, it is the (US) + and ]keys that don't require to be accessible with the correct hand position. They are used only to add diacritic marks to other characters which is something that I don't think that people do very often, not even when writing French.
The (US) \ key is used for single quote, asterix, hash, tilde (in different layouts) and therefore very important for programming.
Brackets and braces are acquired with Alt Gr and the numbers 7 to 0. I think that with the addition of the Windows keys, the move of Alt Gr slightly to the left only improved its reachability, making it easier to type in this layout: I press it with my thumb!

BTW, in the UK English layout (which is very much like the US ANSI layout but with a vertical Enter key), the \ key is between (short) left Shift and Z.
« Last Edit: Fri, 24 December 2010, 15:12:52 by Findecanor »
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Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #28 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:08:08 »
\ | key in Ansi is also quite idiotic... I mean it's pretty standard alpha-key, but still it has to be special size? What's the point?
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #29 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:09:50 »
same reason the right shift key is incredibly freakin huge :)

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Offline Pylon

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« Reply #30 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:22:30 »
Well, some people use right shift heavily...I know some people that use it exclusively.

As for me, I probably can't tolerate ISO because the left shift is tiny. And I hit left shift by the very left edge. (I never use right shift)

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #31 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:47:20 »
Quote from: Pylon;268882
some people use right shift heavily


aw, it's as long as an aircraft carrier! who uses the right edge of that thing?? :)

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Offline flashstar

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« Reply #32 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:49:54 »
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

« Last Edit: Sat, 25 December 2010, 19:52:12 by flashstar »
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Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #33 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:05:45 »
Quote from: flashstar;268890
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

Show Image


Hmm, one more improvement, just to reach the 105 keys, why not place <> (one taking room from left shift) and take some space from Caps Lock... Only issue is that standard layout there isn't too much room in it... In the end there is just too many special characters...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #34 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:17:57 »
Quote from: flashstar;268890
Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?
I think it's a good layout. Even <> is present, between the left-hand Ctrl and Alt. The problem, of course, is that this now takes up space that is needed for the Windows key!

Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #35 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 20:52:10 »
Quote from: quadibloc;268898
I think it's a good layout. Even <> is present, between the left-hand Ctrl and Alt. The problem, of course, is that this now takes up space that is needed for the Windows key!


I completely missed that one there... Hmm, maybe need just to take room from space?
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #36 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 21:08:02 »
space, the final frontier... plennnty of room to carve out some keys :)

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Offline flashstar

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« Reply #37 on: Sat, 25 December 2010, 23:40:07 »
Quote from: Ekaros;268905
I completely missed that one there... Hmm, maybe need just to take room from space?


Or just replace the bottom right splat (*) key with a windows key?
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Offline Ekaros

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« Reply #38 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 04:53:00 »
Quote from: flashstar;268933
Or just replace the bottom right splat (*) key with a windows key?


Hmm, never got around those keys, does Windows differentiate between two windows keys? And I have used the "meta" even less...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
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Offline ktkr

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« Reply #39 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 05:11:17 »
Quote from: Ekaros;268876
\ | key in Ansi is also quite idiotic... I mean it's pretty standard alpha-key, but still it has to be special size? What's the point?


Agreed, but incidentally it makes the best backspace key ever. Thank you, retarded engineers.

Offline bladamson

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« Reply #40 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 05:56:20 »
Quote from: flashstar;268890
I really prefer the ANSI standard most likely because I am so used to it. I do agree however that the ANSI \| key is much too large and is placed in a strange location. I do prefer a larger inverted-L enter key however. This is predicated upon the requirement that such an inverted-L is stabilized properly. Once I installed new blue ALPS keys in my Omnikey, the enter key became much easier to press and exhibited less friction. The only downside with the inverted-L is that the right shift has to be downsized for the \| key to sit to the right of it. Again, I might have a problem with this configuration simply because I am used to the ANSI standard.

Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?


My favorite layout is the apple standard keyboard from the 68k mac era, but probably only because I used it so much.


Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #41 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:29:44 »
I'm not a fan of the placement of the arrow keys there.
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Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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« Reply #42 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:53:09 »
What a weird layout. If you all remember, the control key did pretty much nothing in Mac OS (and still doesn't, outside of Terminal). Yet, the control key is pretty large and placed in a favourable position.

My first computer was a BBC Micro, with its own bizarre arrow key arrangement (left/right above, up/down on the line below). I think I got the hang of them, although games never used the arrow keys, instead preferring left/right on one hand (e.g. A/Z), and up/down on the other (e.g. ,/.), a pattern that has sadly never come back.

However, after getting a PC, followed later by a Mac, I could have hacked at the throat (with the keyboard) of whoever came up with such a retarded arrow key layout. Probably one of Steve Jobs's more loopy moments, like prohibiting 3.5" floppy drives and expansion card slots.

Also, my keyboard, same layout as that, was one of the most abhorrent rubberdomes ever to see the light of day (second only to the suicide-or-homicide-inducing PowerBook 150 keyboard), whereas the one depicted above looks like one of the delectable ALPS models that I wish I'd had instead.

(Seriously, I should auction off my PowerBook 150 keyboard as a horror museum piece for keyboard nerds as it really is that bad.)
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Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #43 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 08:56:20 »
Quote from: msiegel;268889
aw, it's as long as an aircraft carrier! who uses the right edge of that thing?? :)

I press the Right Shift key with my right pinky together with keys on the right side of the keyboard to get symbols. That is the only use I have for that key.
I used to press the very right tip of it before I got used to keyboards that had a shorter key (Cherry MX-1800, MX-11800).

Quote from: flashstar;268890
Do you guys think that Northgate hit upon the ultimate layout?

There is no such thing as an ultimate layout. It does not work well with many keymaps that use the \ key for more important symbols. Placing it to the left of Right Shift would be better for those.

Quote from: Ekaros;268895
,..  take some space from Caps Lock...

I have often thought the same thing myself. Why are there so many keys to the right of my right pinky, but so few keys to the left of my left pinky?
« Last Edit: Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:06:51 by Findecanor »
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« Reply #44 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:15:59 »
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269048
What a weird layout.

Just a legacy from Apple IIgs.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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« Reply #45 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:21:51 »
Quote from: woody;269064
Just a legacy from Apple IIgs.


Thank goodness when IBM introduced the Model M they threw legacy layouts out the window, ditto the Apple Extended keyboard. Legacy is not an excuse, unless you're Raymond Chen, and hacking at his throat with a Model M would be quite entertaining.

The problem with modern keyboards is that people have their heads in the clouds and their ankles mired in legacy, so they just swap enough keys to be a royal nuisance without actually accomplishing anything. However, the HHKB has to be commended for being a genuine leap. The left-handed keyboard is also very interesting, and I would be tempted to try one if I had a desk that supported left-fluting keyboard, and it didn't come only with MX blacks.

(Keyboards are a bit like flutes, in that your hands go at one end and they extend in an ungainly manner miles off in the other direction. My desk doesn't have anything to support a keyboard that goes off to the left though.)
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #46 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 09:37:38 »
They moved Caps Lock to where Control once was to keep people used to typewriters happy.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #47 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 10:12:56 »
Quote from: bladamson;268979
My favorite layout is the apple standard keyboard from the 68k mac era, but probably only because I used it so much.
I think it's an excellent design. The ESC key is handy, the Control key is in its traditional position for ASCII keyboards, and the two less-used printable character keys are out of the way.

The cursor keys probably would not stay where they are in a keyboard designed for use with a current PC, but their placement is reasonable.

Offline Daniel Beardsmore

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« Reply #48 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 10:14:31 »
Quote from: quadibloc;269086
I think it's an excellent design. The ESC key is handy, the Control key is in its traditional position for ASCII keyboards ...


Pray tell, what would you do with the control key on a Macintosh?
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Offline bladamson

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« Reply #49 on: Sun, 26 December 2010, 10:37:23 »
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore;269088
Pray tell, what would you do with the control key on a Macintosh?


They're great for Debian/PPC. :P