Author Topic: IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World  (Read 11522 times)

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Offline Sam

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 17:19:11 »
Has anyone else drawn parallels between the IBM Model M and the original Volkswagen Bug (Beetle)?  Being the Bug was mass produced for so many years, and due to various factors in it's construction, it spawned whole new industries to support it.  Long after it stopped being sold in the U.S., third-party spare parts, add-ons, and kits were readily available for a cheap price.  Many people did their own projects on the cars.  Of course the same sort of thing happens with lots of other makes and models, but not to the extent that it did with the Bug.  The result was Bugs were around in large numbers for much longer than you'd expect and in all sorts of shapes and modifications.

I see the same sort of thing with the IBM Model M.  The things just keep on going.  Not only due to their great construction, but also due to the huge numbers of them that were produced, they'll be with us for a very long time and hopefully for a very reasonable price.  This availability leads to lots of people doing modifications, buying up old boards to use as spare-parts donors, and it's a cheap entry for many into the world of mechanical keyboards.  I wonder if there will be more commercially available products in the future to further extend the life of these keyboards as well as modify/improve them.  Not just replacement keys, springs, etc.  But maybe drop-in replacement controllers that would revive dead boards, plus make new functions available (on-the-fly switching between QWERTY/Dvorak/Colemak/user-defined layouts), novelty keycaps, perhaps replacement cases, etc.

Regarding a controller replacement, what's your thoughts on the viability of such a third-party controller?  I work in the electronics design/manufacturing business and am considering making such a replacement controller.  Would you be in the market for such a controller and what features would you like to see?  What sort of a price do you think would be reasonable?

At a minimum, I think the controller should have these functions:
*Change layouts between various standard and user-defined layouts.
*Completely programmable key layout - each and every key can be redefined as desired.
*User-defined layers which would be activated via a user-defined function key.
*User layouts saved in internal flash memory (if you take your keyboard and plug it into any computer, it should work as-is without any need for drivers or programs)
*Works with PCs (Windows/Linux) and Macs.
*User selectable connectivity (PS/2 or USB).
*Usable with the widest range of Model Ms possible, including standard layout, SpaceSavers, and if possible terminal boards.

Additionally some other features might be considered:
*Powered USB hub so you can plug various USB items directly into the keyboard.
*Built in trackball and/or trackpoint controller.
*Circuitry/programmability for lighting additional LEDs (i.e. LEDs for Caps Lock, or lighting under all keys, with the ability to change colors).  This would obviously require additional electronics besides just the controller.
*NKRO - I haven't thought about this one, but it may very well not be possible or practical given the existing keyboard architecture.
*PC/Mac software to support the customizing of layouts.
*A quick and easy way of saving/loading layouts directly from a USB memory stick / SD Card.  Ie., you have an office full of Ms with this controller, but different users have different layouts.  You save your layout to a USB memory stick, and when you need to use a coworker's computer, take your USB stick there, plug it in, hit some key, and your layout is automatically activated on the co-worker's computer.  This functionality would be built into the keyboard and not require any computer application/driver or interaction to operate it.
*Bluetooth and/or other wireless connectivity.
*Networking of various keyboard nodes.  Ie., if you split your keyboard, or had a separate keypad, each could have their own controller, but work seamlessly together.  Meaning pressing a control key on the left half would work to modify a key pressed on the right half, and vice-versa, and this functionality should work in a wireless model as well.  Especially useful and necessary for mounting split keyboards to armchairs, etc.

Offline Ekaros

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 19:48:21 »
OS can do quite a lot in terms of layouts, still maximising KRO would be intresting venture...
So I should add something useless here yes? Ok, ok...
Filco 105-key NKRO MX Browns Sw/Fi-layout|IBM Model M 1394545 Lexmark 102-key Finnish-layout 1994-03-22|Cherry G80-3000LQCDE-2 with MX CLEAR
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Dell AT102W(105-key SF) (Black ALPS)|Steelseries Steelkeys 6G(MX Black) ISO-FI-layout|Cherry G84-4400 G84-4700 Cherry MLs

Offline theferenc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 20:16:51 »
Yeah, I don't see much need for layout changes, since every OS nowadays can handle that with no difficulty. At least among the "standard" layouts. Being able to swap between UNIX and ANSI/ISO though would be nice.

The connectivity options, the programmability, flash memory, and layers option though...these are all quite appealing to me. It wouldn't even have to be extensive programmability, either. Something along the lines of the Realforce or HHKB style DIP switches would be fine (swap caps/control, move super/alt around, etc.). And give Ripster something else to ***** about.

I would definitely be willing to pay for such a controller, especially if it was just a drop in replacement. 4 bolts, 2 ribbon cables and a ground cable -- it's not like we're talking rocket science in terms of swapping the controller, either.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Sam

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 20:35:27 »
Quote from: Ekaros;270477
OS can do quite a lot in terms of layouts, still maximising KRO would be intresting venture...


Yes, but do they handle layers well?  Perhaps not needed on a standard Model M, but what if I wanted to modify my Model M to a mini, without the arrow key cluster or the numpad?  You need custom layers to define how to generate those missing keys.  Can the OS handle that?  Not that I've seen, but maybe I'm missing something.

The other point, which maybe doesn't affect a lot of people, is that I frequently need to take my computer and use it on other people's computers.  It would be a very rare occurrence where I could modify their system to match my preferred layout.  So the result is that I struggle to use my own keyboard with their system.  Still better than using their rubber dome keyboard, but not an adequate solution.  With a full-featured controller, the keyboard would be completely plug-and-play, using my desired layout.

One further point.  I may at times want to use a different keyboard with my computer.  In that case I'd need to modify my layout and reboot the computer.  My idea is to make it so that I could just unplug one keyboard and plug in my keyboard without any modification whatsoever on the computer end, so no need to reboot (assuming it's connected via USB - I don't recommend hot plugging/unplugging PS/2 keyboards).

Offline Sam

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 20:42:35 »
Quote from: theferenc;270483
Yeah, I don't see much need for layout changes, since every OS nowadays can handle that with no difficulty. At least among the "standard" layouts. Being able to swap between UNIX and ANSI/ISO though would be nice.


I'm guessing I'm not a normal user, but I often wish I had a different layout for different software applications I use.  For example, some similar applications have different mappings for the F keys.  I'd prefer to standardize this between applications by being able to hot-key my keyboard layout.  I guess it would be nice to have an indicator light also to inform me which layout I was using.  I will typically use one application for a few hours, then switch to another application and it's often difficult for me to remember which key I need to press being the applications have very similar functionality, but different F keys to do a similar task.  Some of the applications allow the F key mapping to be customized within the application, but some do not.  A similar situation when using macro keys.  I'd sometimes like them to be defined in the keyboard rather than in some keyboard driver on the PC, and be able to hot-key to which key layout/macros are in use.

Offline theferenc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 20:47:10 »
I at least wasn't suggesting that you not do it. But adding switchable layouts was the feature that seemed the least useful, from your original post.

Also, couldn't that just be subsumed into the "full programmability" ability of the controller? Just have sort of "hardwired" options for the standard layouts, which flashes them in via the programmability option.

The hard part there is if any keys outside the main alpha block have been programmed, you'd have to be careful to not overwrite them.

The more I think about this, the more interested I become in it. There's a thread in the mods section that talks about sort of the first steps toward something like this.

I haven't looked at the controller code, but I do a lot of C systems programming, so I would probably be willing to help with the firmware coding, if you're interested. I'm not sure where to start, but I figure that code from the linked post would be a good place.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline theferenc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 20:49:21 »
Your post while I was composing mine actually convinces me further that the layout bit is definitely subsumed into the programmability aspect.

So it basically comes "for free". If you use DIP switches, even more so. And yes, I'm a fan of them.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Sam

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 21:21:53 »
Quote from: theferenc;270502
Your post while I was composing mine actually convinces me further that the layout bit is definitely subsumed into the programmability aspect.

So it basically comes "for free". If you use DIP switches, even more so. And yes, I'm a fan of them.


Most definitely the layout/programmability functionality has overlap, if not just a different way of saying the same thing.  I was aware of that when I wrote that post, but thought I'd separate them just to emphasize those aspects of the controller.

Thanks for the offer to help!  I've spent over 25 years of my career as a firmware engineer and managing a team of engineers in designing and building electronics (firmware + hardware + applications).  So actually I have all the resources I need.  If I do this, it would be a professionally made board, not some hobbyist thing made with cobbled together parts.  For example it would use a custom designed PCB, with surface mount components, and a specifically chosen microcontroller for the job, not some Teensey or such pre-made board.  Although I'm thinking of targeting the controller specifically at the Model M market, I'd probably make it general purpose enough so that it could be used for someone wanting to make their own board using Cherry or some other switches.

Anyways, just an idea I'm thinking about, which would be in addition to a separate keyboard/keyboard controller project I'm about to start for using IBM Beam Springs.

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #8 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 21:25:29 »
Keep us updated on the status of this. I'm definitely in the market. I'd probably take a half dozen or so, if the price is right.

I've always been curious of these mythical beam springs. I've never even seen one in real life.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline msiegel

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 21:32:01 »
Quote from: Sam;270525
a separate keyboard/keyboard controller project I'm about to start for using IBM Beam Springs


i'd be happy to share notes on new sensor electronics for the capacitive boards.

i've been gradually making progress on a prototype circuit via simulation in LTSpice :)

/not an ee

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Offline jpc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 22:54:51 »
Quote from: Sam
Volkswagen Beetle - The Model M of the Automotive World


FTFY.

Ford's Panther platform -- the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis -- feels more like the Model M of cars. It's large, low-tech, secure, institutional, ponderous, durable, fixable, and inexpensive given its size and performance. It takes a licking and keeps on ticking.

It's a good design for a bygone era.

Plenty of cars have lasted decades with no redesign. The Beetle, the Hindustan Ambassador, the first generation Ford Falcon, the Volvo 240, many others. Jalopnik published a list not too long ago.

But if the gold bugs are right, if Western civilization declines from here, if future historians think Mad Max is a documentary or a fairy tale, then what do you need? Guns? Canned spam? Water filtration kits? No, f--- that. You need a panther with Model Ms in the trunk. Done.

RSI prevention recipe:[/B] Kinesis Contoured, Colemak layout, touch typing, Contour Design Rollermouse,  Logitech TrackMan Wheel, Logitech m570 trackball, "workrave" break timer software, "awesome" window manager, tenkeyless boards, cherry browns, Wang 724 with "ghetto green" ALPS, standing desk and/or comfy adjustable chairs, stress reduction, computer time reduction.

Fun non-ergonomic things: bolt modded Model M Space Saving Keyboards with new springs, Kensington Expert Mouse v7, Unicomp Endurapro, Northgates

Offline quadibloc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 23:15:26 »
Quote from: theferenc;270483
Yeah, I don't see much need for layout changes, since every OS nowadays can handle that with no difficulty. At least among the "standard" layouts.
There are two different kinds of "layout".

You want to switch between a U.S. layout and a Swedish layout or a French layout in the operating system - because it's the job of the operating system to translate scan codes to ASCII characters.

But if you want to change which scan code is generated by a key, you want to do that in the keyboard - not with a kluge that substitutes one scan code for another in the computer. The whole point of having that capability in your keyboard is so that you can make it look like another keyboard (i.e., an AT keyboard for compatibility with old software, or a 122-key keyboard) in a way that is absolutely transparent to software. Attempting to modify the keyboard driver in a nonstandard way doesn't provide this.

Offline theferenc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 29 December 2010, 23:32:33 »
Valid point, quadibloc. I hadn't really considered that, but you're right. If you can, on the fly, change the scan code that a key sends, that would be vastly preferable.

Hmmm...this is getting even more interesting now.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline NamelessPFG

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 16:27:09 »
I sure wouldn't mind a Unicomp Model M13 with the Windows keys, NKRO, and firmware-level programming. Perhaps even the same detachable cable like the older Model Ms use if it's PS/2, or a simple mini-USB port if you're going that route. That way, I can move Alt right next to Ctrl and squeeze those Windows keys more inward, where they're harder to hit in the middle of a game while also being there for when those useful Windows key shortcuts are needed outside of games.

Offline bladamson

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 16:30:36 »
If unicomp would turn out a buckling spring keyboard in a more modern looking case and include some gewjaws and useless gadgetry, they could take over the market lol.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #15 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 18:36:28 »
Quote from: bladamson;270830
If unicomp would turn out a buckling spring keyboard in a more modern looking case and include some gewjaws and useless gadgetry, they could take over the market lol.
You'ld think so.

But a standard, basic Unicomp keyboard costs $69.00. Let's assume that if they were sold through retail channels, Unicomp could sell them in bulk to wholesalers, providing enough of a discount so that they could still sell for $69.00 on store shelves.

That compares to a basic rubber dome keyboard, which costs $19.95 on store shelves.

So a keyboard with a modern-looking case and useless gadgetry from Unicomp... would cost $50 more than a keyboard in a similarly modern case and with a similar quantity of useless gadgetry from Logitech or Microsoft. Oops.

And that's just the beginning.

A buckling-spring keyboard is a keyboard with tactile feel. That makes it good for typing.

Gamers do use mechanical switch keyboards, but they choose the linear switches, not the tactile switches. And guess who buys the keyboards with useless gadgetry and cool styling? Gamers!

Unicomp knows how to make keyboards for, and sell keyboards to, IBM mainframe shops that want their new keyboards to be like their old ones. We're an afterthought to them. The mass market for keyboards isn't like either their core market or us.

There's no point for Unicomp to try building keyboards out of Cherry black switches, since there are other companies established in that market.

There should be a wider market out there for a quality typing keyboard, since many businesses benefit from fast, rapid data entry - even if they don't have any IBM mainframes. But it isn't clear to me how Unicomp can reach out to that market. I'd be inclined to say they should venture into the point-of-sale keyboard business - that would benefit us, since that would mean they'd be making programmable keyboards - because that is a specialist market that does value quality keyswitches.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #16 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 18:59:14 »
NKRO with a membrane keyboard is going to be fun. I'd like to see them bring back Model F style internals, but that's never going to happen.
« Last Edit: Thu, 30 December 2010, 20:28:17 by ch_123 »

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #17 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 20:23:55 »
Quote from: ch_123;270877
NKRO with a membrane keyboard is going to be fun. I'd like to see them bring back a Model F style internals, but that's never going to happen.
That's a good point. Capacitative keys can give you NKRO, but otherwise you need a diode on each key. You can't put those on the membrane sheet of a model M.

Offline Pylon

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« Reply #18 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 20:28:49 »
Quote from: quadibloc;270876
You'ld think so.

But a standard, basic Unicomp keyboard costs $69.00. Let's assume that if they were sold through retail channels, Unicomp could sell them in bulk to wholesalers, providing enough of a discount so that they could still sell for $69.00 on store shelves.

That compares to a basic rubber dome keyboard, which costs $19.95 on store shelves.
(snip)
.


Really, if they got their act together and start to actively market their products, along with getting a [much] better website, better name (and logo), better naming system (e.g. start using the M-series naming system again to better show their IBM origins), and actively try to achieve a presence at brick and mortar stores where people can actually try the keyboards (hey this keyboard clicks! It's a lot like my old IBM!), then we might see their consumer-end sales take off, and then they can get a real R&D department again.

Oh, and maybe revive the M2 as a low cost BS board and try to get into $40 Logitech/Microsoft territory.
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 December 2010, 09:26:15 by Pylon »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #19 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 20:28:56 »
Hell, I'd love to see them bring back Beam Springs, but that really is never going to happen.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #20 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 22:18:29 »
Quote from: ch_123;270917
Hell, I'd love to see them bring back Beam Springs, but that really is never going to happen.
From Unicomp, no. But a Chinese company tried making buckling springs - there's a review on this site, the result was apparently the worst keyboard ever - so maybe someday a Chinese company will try making a beam spring keyboard.

The results might not be great, of course.
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 December 2010, 09:42:34 by quadibloc »

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #21 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 22:20:57 »
Quote from: quadibloc;270976
a Chinese company tried making buckling springs


those dudes didn't stick to the tried-and-true design.

let's not forget how great a job ibm engineers did on the original :)

Filco Zero (Fukka) AEKII sliders and keycaps * Filco Tenkeyless MX brown * IBM F/AT parts: modding
Model F Mod Log * Open Source Generic keyboard controller

Offline Sam

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« Reply #22 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 22:48:16 »
Well, I've got it in the back of my mind to look into this.  When that might be, I don't know as I've got a lot to do first before even starting to look at that.  After I finish my beam spring controller, I'll have keys from old salvaged IBM Displaywriter boards to make a couple of my own keyboards.  But there would be no way to manufacture these in any quantity given the difficulty in sourcing old beam spring boards.  So the logical next step would be to look into manufacturing my own beam spring switches, holding true to Big Blue's design as much as possible.  If haven't looked into how expensive this will be.  I know though it'll be very expensive, it's just a matter of how very expensive.  If it's just a little very expensive, I might spring for it and manufacture a batch of brand new beam springs, along with my controller and PCB.  Anyways even if the price is acceptable, it's probably at least a year away, if not longer, before I'd even start, so nobody should get their hopes up soon.

Offline 8_INCH_FLOPPY

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 22:50:08 »
Beetles are small and light relative to other cars.  Model Ms are large and heavy compared to other keyboards.  Beetles are also fairly unreliable compared to other cars.  Model Ms are more reliable when compared to other keyboards, despite the fact that many of them are +20 years old.  I disagree with your metaphor.
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black cherry, blue cherry, brown cherry, clear cherry, cherry M84, white alps, black alps, cream alps, Monterey blue alps, Fujitsu Peerless, Gateway2000 rubber dome, Keytronic rubber dome, Model M buckling spring, Model F buckling spring, futaba, black space invader

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Offline theferenc

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 23:07:59 »
Sam, I know this suggestion will likely sound absurd to most people here, but it's not too hard to get in touch with manufacturing facilities in Shenzhen, CN. There are a lot of places there that sort of specialize in small order type stuff (on the scale of a few hundred anyway), and I know of at least 1 that used to do custom order stuff for as few as 10 items. It changed hands a year or so ago, and now produces only large orders, unfortunately.

Anyway, keep the thought in the back of your mind. While maybe not one place for the whole product, getting one place to machine the barrel plate (or whatever), one to manufacture the switches, one for the PCB, etc. wouldn't be that hard. Most of those places even speak English, so you wouldn't even need to learn Chinese. Cheaper than having it done in the US or EU, anyway.

Basically, I'm saying develop a kit for us to put together. It's fun, and we might even learn something in the process.
HHKB Pro 2 -- Custom UNIX layout Unicomp Customizer 101 -- IBM Model M 1391401 (modded to UNIX layout) -- IBM 1397000 (also UNIX layout) -- SSK in UNIX layout -- Model F 122 key in UNIX layout (Soarer USB "native")
 
CST L-TracX trackball -- Kensington Expert Mouse trackball

Offline Sam

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IBM Model M - The Beetle of the Keyboard World
« Reply #25 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 23:17:18 »
The main thing in my comparison is that they both are very popular and continue to be used and resold long after the production stopped.  Of course the Beetle was a low-end car, and the IBM Model M was a high-end keyboard, so no comparison of their placement within their respective industry's product line-up.

The second thing is that with the Beetle, a large number of products were made to extend their life even more, and to modify their appearance/function.  There aren't a whole lot of third-party products available for the Model M right now, but my point is that I see a market for such products and am considering designing one myself.

Quality-wise, the Beetle was pretty good in my opinion.  Of course given it was a low-end model, it couldn't compete with higher-end models in performance and other aspects.  But it's simplicity made it pretty reliable and easy to maintain.  Much more than the average car.  It's use of air cooling rather than water cooling was one example of using a simpler and easier to maintain design, albeit at a cost of limiting it's performance and use in demanding situations.  If you compare it to the other small cars of it's time, I think you'd see that on average it far outlasted its competitors in being able to continue being used long after it's expected life-time.

Both automobiles and electronics are for the most part designed to be used for a limited period of time and then discarded for a newer model.  Certain cars end up becoming classics and thus are desirable and people want to maintain them.   With cars, you're able to still use (drive) a vintage car around.  With electronics, not so much, and vintage electronics are mostly relegated to museums or for showing off, but not for everyday actual use.  The Model M I see as being one notable exception.

Anyways, maybe I'm the only one who frequently thinks (imagines?) similarities between the two products in these respects.

Offline Sam

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« Reply #26 on: Thu, 30 December 2010, 23:21:32 »
Quote from: theferenc;271000
Sam, I know this suggestion will likely sound absurd to most people here, but it's not too hard to get in touch with manufacturing facilities in Shenzhen, CN.


Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm way ahead of you.  I live/work next to China, not in the US or Europe, so I wouldn't dream of having this stuff made in some expensive western country.  The company I work for has stuff made all the time in China.  We have all sorts of contacts in China for factories specializing in all sorts of manufacturing processes used in the production of consumer/industrial electronics.  So naturally I'll go that route.  That's the only reason I'm even considering doing this, because I have ready access to cheap manufacturing.

Offline theferenc

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« Reply #27 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 00:03:01 »
Well, there you go then. Out of curiosity, where are you? Feel free to ignore that question if you don't want to say. I'm just curious. I'm moving to either Hong Kong or Shanghai in the near future. SO prefers Shanghai, I prefer Hong Kong. She's a Chinese national though, so Shanghai is certainly easier.

And there is a lot of sentiment on this forum of "well, it's made in china, so of course it's crap". Which is why I wanted to put the suggestion out there. They make a lot of really great stuff, actually. Admittedly, much of it is kept for domestic use, but not all of it.
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Offline Sam

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« Reply #28 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 02:01:11 »
I'm based in Korea.  Typically we use local Korean factories for very small quantity stuff, prototypes, samples, etc., but use China factories for large quantities.  It all depends on the item though.  Sometimes small quantity stuff gets made in China and sometimes large quantity stuff gets made in Korea.  You certainly have to watch carefully the quality of stuff made in China, but if you know what you're doing, I see no reason to not have stuff made there.

I'm with you in preferring Hong Kong to Shanghai.  Actually prefer Hong Kong to any city in China that I'm aware of.  I never look forward to trips to China.  But some westerners love it.

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #29 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 05:21:01 »
Quote from: quadibloc;270976
From Unicomp, no. But a Chinese company tried making buckling springs - there's a review on this site, the result was apparently the worst keyboard ever - so maybe someday a Chinese company will try making a beam spring keyboard.

The results might not be great, of course.


Alps had their own Beam Spring-esque switch



Supposedly an excellent switch, but lacking in long-term durability.

Quote
and the IBM Model M was a high-end keyboard


I like to think of it as a cost cut version of a cost cut version of a high end keyboard.
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 December 2010, 05:25:20 by ch_123 »

Offline kill will

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« Reply #30 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 06:36:24 »
I think an IBM Space Saving Keyboard is more like an E30 M3. Timeless classic.
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Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #31 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 09:06:39 »
I wonder how durable IBM's old beam-spring switches are. There were spare parts and a service manual for them, weren't there? One board that I have seen on eBay have had key caps in the middle replaced with key caps from the outer PF-keys -- are those just the caps or whole keys, I wonder.

One idea that I have been toying with is to replace the bottom membrane sheet on my IBM M2 with a circuit board and a custom controller to get N-key rollover and USB. It would be easer to do this on a M2 than on a M, because it is flat vs. curved.
The diodes require space. Either, they would somehow have to be fit inside the space in-between the F-keys and the numeric keys -- with holes in the membrane, or they would have to be surface-mounted on the underside. Either way, some modifications to the case would be required because of the extra thickness.
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Offline microsoft windows

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« Reply #32 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 09:40:45 »
IBM Model M's are more like late 1980's Volkswagen Jettas. Those things get great fuel economy and last forever.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #33 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 09:48:52 »
Quote from: ch_123;271096
Alps had their own Beam Spring-esque switch
Pity I can't understand Japanese, and so I couldn't navigate the Qwerters Clinic pages to find out more details about that switch - such as if any keyboards were made that used it, and, if so, where to find them.

Ah: Google tells me it isn't on the Qwerters Clinic site, at least not where it can find a reference to the image, but besides two forum posts, it seems to be discussed here. (In Korean.)

Apparently, this switch was used in the IBM 5576 keyboard.

However, here, it's noted that the 5576 keyboard used a Japanese-made buckling spring design.

But here, perhaps, the mystery is sorted out. The 5576-001 and 5576-002 are noted as using a leaf-spring switch made by ALPS. Is this it?
« Last Edit: Fri, 31 December 2010, 10:02:22 by quadibloc »

Offline ch_123

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« Reply #34 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 11:45:20 »
Quote from: Findecanor;271147
I wonder how durable IBM's old beam-spring switches are. There were spare parts and a service manual for them, weren't there? One board that I have seen on eBay have had key caps in the middle replaced with key caps from the outer PF-keys -- are those just the caps or whole keys, I wonder.


The way that the keycap slotted on to the stem was kinda **** - it was was a flat, thin slit. It's very common to see the keycaps coming lose or fall off because the mount point on the keycap broke. I've also seen pics of switches with broken beams. In the patent, it was noted that they were tested to work for over 100 million times. It could be an issue of long term durability when they're not being used, and not being stored correctly.

The beam spring keycaps are actually the same design as the Selectric keycaps, i.e. they're completely interchangeable.

Quote from: quadibloc;271170
Pity I can't understand Japanese, and so I couldn't navigate the Qwerters Clinic pages to find out more details about that switch - such as if any keyboards were made that used it, and, if so, where to find them.

Ah: Google tells me it isn't on the Qwerters Clinic site, at least not where it can find a reference to the image, but besides two forum posts, it seems to be discussed here. (In Korean.)

Apparently, this switch was used in the IBM 5576 keyboard.

However, here, it's noted that the 5576 keyboard used a Japanese-made buckling spring design.

But here, perhaps, the mystery is sorted out. The 5576-001 and 5576-002 are noted as using a leaf-spring switch made by ALPS. Is this it?


Yes. The 5576-001 and 5576-002 used the Alps plate-spring switch. The later 5576-003 and 5576-A01 used the Brother Telecom buckling spring, quite possibly for cost cutting purposes ironically enough.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #35 on: Fri, 31 December 2010, 15:20:10 »
Quote from: ch_123;271213
Yes. The 5576-001 and 5576-002 used the Alps plate-spring switch. The later 5576-003 and 5576-A01 used the Brother Telecom buckling spring, quite possibly for cost cutting purposes ironically enough.
Not so ironic: after all, the reason the original IBM PC used a buckling-spring keyboard, instead of the beam-spring keyboard used in the IBM 5251 Display Station was to cut costs.

It's true, of course, that IBM engineers heroically fought to have the PC use a buckling-spring keyboard, such as was used in the Datamaster, instead of having costs cut even further - but a buckling spring keyboard is a cost reduction over a beam-spring keyboard.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #36 on: Sat, 01 January 2011, 15:48:13 »
Here is an example, showing just how impractical I am, in what I would consider an "ideal keyboard" that could be manufactured by Unicomp:



This is a 121-key keyboard. This should be something they can make physically with their existing tooling, since 122-key keyboards by IBM, at least, provided for putting the 101-key ANSI-style main typing area in the center instead of the 102-key ISO-style main typing area there, even if this was never used.

The first keyboard image in the diagram shows how it would look if it were used as a 122-key terminal emulation keyboard. The big problem, of course, is the missing key!

In that case, one option would be to use the |\ key above the ENTER key (now the CR key) as an Fn key. Fn-A might be the {} key, Fn-S might be the <> key, and Fn-Q might be {, and Fn-W might be <, to prevent having to use Shift-Fn combinations. With only two keys at once, there shouldn't be ghosting. (There is now a diagram in the upper right, showing the Fn key in green, the two unshifted keys in blue, and the two shifted keys in red.)

There would really be two modes provided for on the custom controller I envision for this arrangement - one that uses terminal keyboard scan codes, like the IBM Host Connected Keyboard, and one that behaves like the PC/5250 or the Boscom.

The second keyboard illustrated is the mode used for conventional typing. Here, there are those 10 unused keys to the left, three of which are used to replace the Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Break keys. Here, there's no reason, with all those extra keys, to use the |\ key as a Fn key. The other seven keys could be used for things like Windows Shift, Windows Menu, and the extra international key. (A small diagram in the upper right now shows how this could be arranged: Fn in the F1 position, the international key in the F7 position, Windows Menu and left Windows Shift in the F9 and F10 positions respectively.)

The third keyboard in the diagram illustrates an exotic arrangement that would probably be little used, but which I've thrown in for completeness. Here, the Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause functionality is taken care of by setting up the numeric keypad exactly as it was on the 84-key IBM AT keyboard. And so the ten keys on the left now serve as duplicate function keys in the old arrangement! (Now, the keys involved are outlined in blue. As the right Ctrl and Alt keys are prefixed by E0, and are not simple, they're in red in the inset diagram, and a possible candidate for a function key in this mode is shown in green.)

EDIT: And, come to think of it, if F13 through F24 are used for multimedia keys in the modes other than the 122-key emulation mode, then one could use F13 for "help", F21 through F24  as the four multimedia keys, and have the ten keys on the left available... to use the keyboard on a Sun. That, and the availability of a mode for Macintosh use would make the keyboard truly universal.

EDIT: Oh, dear. The benefit of the third arrangement is to allow games to treat all the 84 keys that were on the AT keyboard as so many push buttons.

One of the things that might be done with them is to simulate a piano keyboard... but to do that you need NKRO. The AT keyboard was a model F, however, so it could do that.

While there was a 122-key Model F keyboard from IBM, it's not as if Unicomp likely has the dies for that kicking around. (And they would have to make a change to add the num lock/caps lock/scroll lock lights, which they do have on their existing 122-key Model M keyboards.)

So what I thought only required a custom controller is, in fact, like asking for the moon.
« Last Edit: Sat, 01 January 2011, 21:19:11 by quadibloc »

Offline Soarer

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« Reply #37 on: Sat, 01 January 2011, 16:18:41 »
Terminal boards can be modifed to that layout... I guess if it's an M it would need bolt-modding as well. Teensy for the remapping, and you'd be set!