Love my Model M's but...

[mattlach]

Hello all.  Long time lurker, but first time poster.   I could really use some of your expert opinions here, and I'd appreciate as much feedback as I can get.

First off, if you don't want to read my keyboard life story, please skip to the "This is why I'm here" section.

I have been using various buckling spring keyboards since the 80's.  When the market went rubber dome I hated it and never switched.   Couldn't stand typing on them.

Most recently I have two Model M's (one at home, one at work)

Work:
A 52G9700 from 1993


The Model M by mattlach, on Flickr

This is a fantastic keyboard, with the best key feel I can possibly imagine for typing.  I'm using this at work cause I replaced it with something more stylish for home.  (Let's face it, the communist grey/beige isn't very appealing anymore)

Home
Model M13 Trackpoint II (Black)


The IBM Model M by mattlach, on Flickr

This keyboard is every bit as good as the grey one above without looking hideous on my desk.  (see below, love it)  The only downside I can think of is that in the 5 years I've had it, the white started to wear off the keys.   Not a big issue, as I don't even really look at the keys when I type, but it looks ugly.

I recently refurbished it, opening it up, cleaning it out and replaced all the keycaps with brand new ones from Unicomp. so it looks stunning.  The problem is, I got the very last set of keycaps Unicomp had, and they have discontinued making any more, citing low demand and high cost.  (they actually thought they were out before I ordered, but found a lost set in the warehouse after I called and called me back and asked me if I wanted them)


Current setup... by mattlach, on Flickr

So all of this has me thinking.   While I absolutely love my black model M, do I really want to wear out another set of keycaps on it, and then be unable to replace them (unless I get some custom stuff made up?)   I know its not super rare, but its one of the harder to find of the model M's (at least in good, non-worn condition).  Maybe I should keep it as a collectors item, and not wear out the keys and replace it with something else.

If I do this it has the added benefit of me being able to get some more modern features (Like N-Key Rollover, more modern sleek consumer design, windows key, applications/media keys, etc.)

This is why I'm here.

SO I have read a lot of information on the subject of modern mechanical keyboards.   Everyone seems to suggest that the closest experience to my beloved buckling spring is going to be either Cherry MX Blue switches or clicky white ALPS switches.

After having gone through a near exhaustive list of keyboards eliminating them for one reason or another, I have eventually concluded that I think I like the Xarmor U9BL.  Or, at least I like the concept of it, its sleek appearance and its features.  The question is, will I like, or even be able to tolerate its feel?

It uses Cherry MX Blue switches, with - apparently - a slightly softer back-mount than some are used to.  I haven't been able to find anywhere where I can test this keyboard specifically, or Cherry MX Blue switches in general around here.

So I am reaching out explicitly to current and former Model M fanatics.  Has anyone had the experience of going from predominantly using a Model M to using either specifically the XArmor U9BL, or to cherry blues more in general.   How did you think they felt?  Did it take some getting used to, or were they pretty similar?

Your detailed input would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Matt

[MissileMike]

Welcome to Geekhack, Matt.

Your white board is not a 1391401.  It's exactly what the label says, a 52G9700, which have a non-detachable cord, but perfectly fine to type on.

Secondly, if you're used to Buckling Spring, you will find that white simplified alps (AKA fukka) are as close as you're going to get to BS.  Blues also click, but they require less force and can cause more typos.  The problem is, it's not always easy to find a board with fukkas.

Really, I would just suggest you get some unicomp space savers and live with the grey keys.  It's not a terrible looking keyboard.

[bugfix]

I only don't advise this.[/IMG]

I just switched from BS to Topre and it works fairly well.

Really, I would just suggest you get some unicomp space savers and live with the grey keys.  

Seconded.

[mattlach]

Welcome to Geekhack!   I think I've seen your pics at HardForum.

Personally I think you'll do OK with Blue Cherries.  I only don't advise this.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5121/5248280774_b9ffc1a437_z.jpg

Thank you for your assistance.

Yes,  while I love the hardforums, keyboards are a very specialized area of expertise, so I figured I'd go straight to the source.  In other words, here.

Welcome to Geekhack, Matt.

Your white board is not a 1391401.  It's exactly what the label says, a 52G9700, which have a non-detachable cord, but perfectly fine to type on.

Secondly, if you're used to Buckling Spring, you will find that white simplified alps (AKA fukka) are as close as you're going to get to BS.  Blues also click, but they require less force and can cause more typos.  The problem is, it's not always easy to find a board with fukkas.

Really, I would just suggest you get some unicomp space savers and live with the grey keys.  It's not a terrible looking keyboard.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/pckeyboards_2141_473832

Thank you for that input.

Do you guys know of anywhere that have Cherry blues I could test one out and see if I like it?

[bugfix]

so I figured I'd go straight to the source.

Better leave while you still can. I've only been here for a month but it feels like I've been here forever. Also I've accumulated about 725$ in keyboard costs...

[Ascaii]

Thank you for your assistance.

Yes,  while I love the hardforums, keyboards are a very specialized area of expertise, so I figured I'd go straight to the source.  In other words, here.




Thank you for that input.

Do you guys know of anywhere that have Cherry blues I could test one out and see if I like it?

Hell, i'd offer to send you one to try, but i dont think you'd want to cover the shipping cost of 30 either way^^. You could sign up to Mr. Interfaces sinklist for the cherry switch numpad or keyboard and try that.

[mattlach]

Also,

If I choose to keep the M13, do you guys know of any 3rd party custom molder that would make one piece keycaps for it?  

Double shot instead of pad printed would be even more fantastic.

I know it would be expensive, but if I could find something like this I could pop off my pristine keys and save them if I ever plan on moving the M13 to "collectors item" status, and then put the keys back on.

Unfortunately in my research I've come up short on this front.  I found a company that does custom double shot keycap molds for ALPS and Cherry switches, but they did not have a Model M mold...

[mattlach]

Better leave while you still can. I've only been here for a month but it feels like I've been here forever. Also I've accumulated about 725$ in keyboard costs...

Uh oh...  This is starting to sound like my camera equipment addiction...

[bugfix]

Model M mold...

Fentek offers that if I'm not mistaken.

Uh oh...  This is starting to sound like my camera equipment addiction...

I hope it's curable...

[mattlach]

Secondly, if you're used to Buckling Spring, you will find that white simplified alps (AKA fukka) are as close as you're going to get to BS.  Blues also click, but they require less force and can cause more typos.  The problem is, it's not always easy to find a board with fukkas.

Oh, and as far as the fukka's go...

I vaguely remember reading about people replacing their switches in their keyboards.  

I'm not a stranger to modding stuff, and wouldn't mind giving this a try.   Are there keyboards that are good candidates for modding in fukkas?   Is there a good source of loose fukkas for modding?

[Pylon]

Well, Solidtek's KB-6600 uses Fukkas, except it has a tiny backspace and L-shaped enters.

As for double shots...Ripster developed a method to stick practically any key onto a buckling spring stem.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14708

However, for a whole keyboard it's going to be a ton of work and might not even align right.

[mattlach]

However, for a whole keyboard it's going to be a ton of work and might not even align right.

Wow, yes it certainly does look so...

[laden3]

I'm not a stranger to modding stuff, and wouldn't mind giving this a try.   Are there keyboards that are good candidates for modding in fukkas?   Is there a good source of loose fukkas for modding?

http://www.welovemacs.com/mk96.html
I think they are fukkas.

[Pylon]

MK-96 is probably XMs, which are worse.

Later Filco Zeros have Fukkas (they also reportedly have transposition errors), along with the Solidtek KB-6600 and Matias Tactile Pro.

[MissileMike]

Well, Solidtek's KB-6600 uses Fukkas, except it has a tiny backspace and L-shaped enters.

As for double shots...Ripster developed a method to stick practically any key onto a buckling spring stem.
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:14708

However, for a whole keyboard it's going to be a ton of work and might not even align right.

The solidtek uses white complicated alps, not fukkas:


I just proved someone wrong on the Internets, I feel so smarty now.

[Necroleachate]

What about replacing your M13's keycaps with Unicomp blank black ones?

[Pylon]

The solidtek uses white complicated alps, not fukkas:

I just proved someone wrong on the Internets, I feel so smarty now.

The presence of an Alps logo does not guarantee a complicated switch. I have simplified blacks on my TP-110JIS with Alps logos on them.

To tell the mechanism, you have to take the switch apart. If you see a pair of copper-colored plates for the actuation mechanism, then you've got a simplified switch. A silver "tongue" and white plastic indicate a complicated switch.

[mooremanifestation]

Do you guys know of anywhere that have Cherry blues I could test one out and see if I like it?

My local Fry's stocks the Razer BlackWidow, which has Cherry blues.  That's how I was able to try them out.  If you have one near you, check their stock.  Best Buy sells it, too, but I've never seen it in stock there locally.

[mooremanifestation]

My local Fry's stocks the Razer BlackWidow, which has Cherry blues.  That's how I was able to try them out.  If you have one near you, check their stock.  Best Buy sells it, too, but I've never seen it in stock there locally.

I should point out that Fry's also stocks the Steelseries 7G, with Cherry blacks, if you're curious about those.

[mattlach]

My local Fry's stocks the Razer BlackWidow, which has Cherry blues.  That's how I was able to try them out.  If you have one near you, check their stock.  Best Buy sells it, too, but I've never seen it in stock there locally.

Hmm..   There's no Fry's around here, but we do have a MicroCenter.   Maybe they'll have something.  I'll have to search through their web page.  If they do, I wonder what they chances are of them actually having it opened on display so you can try it...

I wouldn't be interested in testing the BlackWidow, as I hear the keys are horrible on it and it completely ruins the feel of the Cherry Blues, so I'd be looking for something else to test.   Maybe MicroCenter will have something...

I should point out that Fry's also stocks the Steelseries 7G, with Cherry blacks, if you're curious about those.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Personally I have no interest at all in any switches without a good tactile feel and a notable "click", and the blacks - I hear - are linear, so I wouldn't be interested, but someone else might...

[jpc]

The Cambridge Micro Center has a few mechs, all shrink-wrapped and untryable.

[dec.net]

Personally, I find the difference between buckling springs and blue cherries rather huge, mainly because the actuation force is so much lower. Could be that you adapt very well to them, if not there is a cheap and simple way to fix it:
Swap in the springs from black cherries. Cheap sources for this are available all over, since blacks are the most common variety of G80-boards, and the combination of black slider && blue spring equals the much wanted red cherry, a very light linear switch good for gaming - so you get two rare and well-adapted boards at the price of one . The only drawback is that the click volume on the blue+black spring combo is a little reduced/dampened - seems that the stiffer spring doesn't allow the click mechanism to work as freely as the lighter one does. However, tactility is not affected, and they still do click, just not quite as juicy.

Chris


PS: Forgot to say that this is possible with reasonable effort only on non-plate-mounted keyboards, therefore excluding most current/pretty models like Das etc. On these boards you can't access the switch easily and therefore do have to desolder every single switch first... which pretty much increases the necessary time by a factor of 5, even though cherry switches are rather simple to desolder.

[mattlach]

Personally, I find the difference between buckling springs and blue cherries rather huge, mainly because the actuation force is so much lower. Could be that you adapt very well to them, if not there is a cheap and simple way to fix it:
Swap in the springs from black cherries. Cheap sources for this are available all over, since blacks are the most common variety of G80-boards, and the combination of black slider && blue spring equals the much wanted red cherry, a very light linear switch good for gaming - so you get two rare and well-adapted boards at the price of one . The only drawback is that the click volume on the blue+black spring combo is a little reduced/dampened - seems that the stiffer spring doesn't allow the click mechanism to work as freely as the lighter one does. However, tactility is not affected, and they still do click, just not quite as juicy.

Chris


PS: Forgot to say that this is possible with reasonable effort only on non-plate-mounted keyboards, therefore excluding most current/pretty models like Das etc. On these boards you can't access the switch easily and therefore do have to desolder every single switch first... which pretty much increases the necessary time by a factor of 5, even though cherry switches are rather simple to desolder.

Interesting.


What does plate mounted mean?

From the pictures in this review, can you tell if it is possible to acess the springs without desoldering the switches?

http://hardwareaware.com/review/xarmor-u9bl/

Thanks,
Matt

[Pylon]

About Micro Center, if you ask them nicely they'll take it out of the box and let you try it. I asked about the Tactile Pro 3.0 (Fukkas) at the Cambridge one and they let me take it out of the box and try it. Typed nicely.

They also have Adesso MK-135b's, which are Cherry blues.

[ch_123]

If you're looking for something with durable caps, most Cherry-using keyboards these days don't have great ones. You're going to need to consider ordering some double shots as well.

[dec.net]

Hi Mattlach, the switches on that keyboard look plate mounted, I'm sorry to say. As I said, desoldering them is not THAT much of a problem (except if you're the kind of person who doesn't like to void his warranty by the first few minutes of ownership anyway), it should be very possible to do the entire conversion on a saturday afternoon.

Chris