Choosing a new keyboard

[keyjay]

I'm a businessman who types a great deal.

I like my tools to max my productivity. It's time for a new keyboard... I think.

I've been using an Avant Stellar by Creative Vision Technologies with ALPS keys the past few years.


What I don't like with the Avant Stellar is the loud noise that's annoying to people when I'm typing away while I'm on the phone with them. (I have no idea how much I will or won't like the lack of auditory feedback if I go to a silent or near-silent keyboard, if I even find a quiet version of a KB I like, but I would like the option of typing without the person on the phone knowing that I'm only half-listening to them and that I have more important things to do at the same time.)

What I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE about the Avant Stellar is the extra section of 12 programmable keys on the left side! (The F keys are the extra ones. The SF keys along the top row are the normal Function keys.)


I'm so used to those extra keys by now that once I get any other keyboard I'm going to have to get a separate keypad to serve this purpose.

Note that a few years ago I tried the Unicomp SpaceSaver and really hated it. The force needed to depress the keys seems ridiculously demanding to me. (Not to mention the remarkably lousy workmanship.)

I'm hoping to find a keyboard that has significantly better response than the one I have now.

I'm mainly considering either a RealForce 103UB variable or "something" with Cherry blue MX keys. I'm only into 103/104 layouts.

I don't know what I'd go with for a Cherry blue keyboard, though. I know I don't like the Das or most others I've looked at.

I noticed a comment on one of these threads saying that EliteKeyboards has announced a near-silent keyboard, but I don't see the actual thread and I don't see anything about it on their site. Their site does, however, say to watch for an announcement of a Cherry MX mechanical keyboard in Jan/Feb (nothing about it on their site as yet).

Well, what's my question? Yeah, well... I guess I'm just looking for any advice or feedback that might seem worthwhile.

How much better is a RealForce or a Cherry blue MX likely to be than the ALPS I have now? What's the lack of auditory feedback do for speed and accuracy in most users' experience? Will I even find a quiet keyboard I like without compromising on responsiveness? Do I want to go with the Topre of the RealForce or the Cherry blue MX and, if the latter, what manufacturer?

Thanks!

EDIT 2/6/11 10:10 PM ET: Extra keys and programmability are no longer considerations; I'll use a separate keypad for that. Also, I realized that Cherry blue are noisy, so I'm open to other Cherry that are quiet if indeed lack of auditory feedback is not a problem.

[msiegel]

re aural feedback and relative loudness, check here for some samples:
http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=36

if you're used to bottoming out (a la alps), i'm guessing you won't be satisfied with the weak tactile feedback provided by *not* bottoming out brown cherries.

and since blue cherries will still be noisy, that means you'll probably end up having to go with a topre

[keyboardlover]

I believe the G80 POS board with clears in my sig is programmable. It has the extra keys as well. $50-$60 shipped on ebay and much quieter than alps.

[msiegel]

KL, how's the tactile feedback on those clears?

[cyberphine]

What I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE about the Avant Stellar is the extra section of 12 programmable keys on the left side! (The F keys are the extra ones. The SF keys along the top row are the normal Function keys.)!

Since you emphasized the LOVE LOVE LOVE part.   Have you seen this: x-Keys

Don't know anything about them more than what the site says.  Although I'm a programmer and I'm really thinking about getting one.

[keyboardlover]

KL, how's the tactile feedback on those clears?

It's quite good; the tactile bump is lower than topre and less subtle but the switch is very smooth. I like them, but not as much as reds.

[keyjay]

I realized after my OP that Cherry blues are noisy, not quiet. So, I'm open to other options, or living with the noisiness. I have yet to read up on the pros and cons of auditory feedback as was suggested.

Also, while I don’t really want to go to a Filco Tenkeyless and have to add a keypad to the right, if necessary I will consider it if it’s the only way to get where I want to go.

We can eliminate the "extra keys" and "programmability, as detailed below.

You need a keyboard with Macro key capability like the Razer Black Widow.  Unfortunately the Blue Cherrys are not quiet so you could either use a SW program like AutoHotkey or wait for whatever Xarmor or other gaming companies come up with.

Unfortunately the Topres prefer DIP switches, not 10 cents of flash memory for their "programmability".

Programmability without the extra keys won’t help me. I'm guessing those other keyboards don't have the extra keys. Nothing on the main layout of a common 103 needs reprogramming for my purposes.

if you're used to bottoming out (a la alps), i'm guessing you won't be satisfied with the weak tactile feedback provided by *not* bottoming out brown cherries.

I assume I can get used to a new feel, if it’s worth it. I don’t see why not. Is it really hard to adapt?

I believe the G80 POS board with clears in my sig is programmable. It has the extra keys as well. $50-$60 shipped on ebay and much quieter than alps.

I took a look and it won’t work for me. The extra keys being on the left is where the magic is. With my right hand on the mouse and the left hand on those extra keys, I can cut/copy/paste and select in between radically fast. The G80 has them on the right.

Since you emphasized the LOVE LOVE LOVE part.   Have you seen this: x-Keys

Yes, though I’m actually considering this: X-keys Desktop (20 keys)

Given that I’m resigned to getting that X-keys device for the extra keys and am fine with that, we’re back to now just looking for the right keyboard overall -- for responsiveness first and foremost, probably wanting it quite (yet to read more on that), 103/104 with a nice high-quality build (with no bells and whistles -- just for business use).

By the way, I notice nobody has yet said to just get the RealForce and not look back. My take is that most here lean a bit more towards Cherry MX.

Well, what say ye now that extra keys and programmability are no longer considerations?

Thanks again!

[keyboardlover]

Realforce is a solid choice; you can't go wrong. One of the best keyboards for typing IMO and VERY quiet.

[keyjay]

Realforce is a solid choice; you can't go wrong. One of the best keyboards for typing IMO and VERY quiet.

Thanks!. I didn't realize it was quiet. I must have been mistaken in thinking I saw a post about their having recently announced a quiet version. I guess they're all quiet, then? I'm looking at the  103UB.

[keyjay]

Realforce is a solid choice; you can't go wrong. One of the best keyboards for typing IMO and VERY quiet.

Okay, so I watched a couple YouTube videos on the RealForce 86U and it is not what I would call "very" quite by a long-shot. To me, "very" quite is like those cheap membrane keyboards that ship with most PCs these days.

I notice your having also posted on the CNET review saying great things about RealForce. I'm definitely not suggesting you work for them by any means, but I guess I'll be looking forward to hearing opinions from others, too.

I've also noticed that the dark key lettering on the black RealForce (or is it black lettering on dark gray keys) with the RealForce 103U tends to present a problem for a number of people who, like me, want to be able to easily read the keys for those times when they do want to read the less-common keys.

[keyboardlover]

Well the Realforce can be very quiet, depending how you type. For example if you type slowly, it makes almost no sound at all. No, I don't work for CNet; I mostly posted on there because the first guy's review was so horrible it really annoyed me. My point was, why buy something that doesn't have features you're complaining about, and then complain about it?? For example, why did that guy complain about the keys AFTER he bought it (when you can see how they look pretty clearly in the photo).

For the black on gray keys, you can read the legends fine in a well-lit environment. I use my 86U at my office and I can read the legends perfectly fine. Hope that helps a bit.

[keyjay]

Well the Realforce can be very quiet, depending how you type. For example if you type slowly, it makes almost no sound at all. No, I don't work for CNet; I mostly posted on there because the first guy's review was so horrible it really annoyed me. My point was, why buy something that doesn't have features you're complaining about, and then complain about it??

I meant I'm not suggesting you work for "RealForce." Sorry for not being clear about that.

I also have to apologize for commenting on the sound of the RealForce prematurely. I had only listened to a few YouTube videos of only RealForce. Now, after listening to a few others that do comparisons, I realize all of them are far from "very" quiet and that even the cheap rubber-dome membrane types are far from "very" quiet -- not to mention that these online audio examples are subjective at best.

[keyjay]

re aural feedback and relative loudness, check here for some samples:
http://geekhack.org/forumdisplay.php?f=36

if you're used to bottoming out (a la alps), i'm guessing you won't be satisfied with the weak tactile feedback provided by *not* bottoming out brown cherries.

and since blue cherries will still be noisy, that means you'll probably end up having to go with a topre

I appreciate the link to the audio comparisons. I'm hoping to also get comments on whether the minimal audio feedback of quieter keyboards does or does not tend to affect the speed and accuracy of typing for most typists.

As to bottoming out, I have no idea how I would judge that other than try it and find out, though it obviously requires plenty of adjusting to even know.

I'm still not even very sure whether Topre or Cherry brown are likely to be better than the ALPS that I'm currently using. I'm assuming it's "very likely".

[keyboardlover]

No problem. And yea, of course I was also thinking compared to ALPs they are 'very quiet'. And no, I don't work for Topre (the company who makes Realforce keyboards). I work in software =)

[keyjay]

ripster,

You seem to be as knowledgeable and familiarized with the various choices as anyone. I'd be very grateful if you would please share your thoughts now that I've removed the dimensions of extra keys and programmability.

Do you think the louder click sound helps with speed and accuracy in general, overall?

(I have to say that my goal of being able to type incognito while on the phone may be mute -- no pun intended. I'm assuming any keyboard is audible while on a phone headset, especially if typing fast and aggressively and that it's a matter of "How annoying is it?" So, maybe I need not be so concerned about the noise level, although annoying people on the phone as little as necessary is a plus if I can bring it down a bit.)

Do you think Cherry MX or Topre are going to be significantly better than my ALPS for speed and accuracy?

How strongly do you prefer Cherry MX over Topre?

And, is there s keyboard and/or key type you recommend I look into, or two, based on my overall posts here?

As I said, I'd prefer to stay with a 103/104, and I "think" I will prefer a quieter model.

However, productivity when I'm busy trying to get work done all day is the top priority.

And, as a reminder, I found the Unicomp SpaceSaver to be way too difficult to depress.

Thanks so much!

[woody]

(I have to say that my goal of being able to type incognito while on the phone may be mute -- no pun intended. I'm assuming any keyboard is audible while on a phone headset, especially if typing fast and aggressively and that it's a matter of "How annoying is it?" So, maybe I need not be so concerned about the noise level, although annoying people on the phone as little as necessary is a plus if I can bring it down a bit.)

keyjay, every keyboard that has moving parts will make some noise, more or less. The noise also depends on the keyboard construction and the connection and type of the desk under it. So you just have to live with it. Get a capacitive touchscreen or something for stealth typing in "phone mode", and use a good keyboard otherwise. These are two separate tools you're looking for. My personal advice is, don't let go of the audible feedback.

I would recommend the Filco Tenkeyless with MX blues, that's a solid keyboard and the best switch tactility-wise so far for me. After some initial break-in period it became pure joy to type on, and I do the least mistakes on it. This is purely subjective, of course, but it's not like I haven't used bunch of switch types.

I also find the BS bit tiresome to type on (but still fun and has charm of it's own). Of the Topres, I have HHKB on the desk, and I can's say it's quiet (I am not happy with the tactility and the activation point, too), so be assured that the phone mic will pick it up nicely.

MX blues is the best switch I have used so far, and Filco Tenkeyless is simply a no-brainer. That's a safe enough suggestion, with the only caveat of the "click" noise - whether you'll like it, and whether you have people in the same room.

[keyjay]

Looks like EliteKeyboards is slated to carry Leopold soon, a new way of getting what was until now gotten with Filco. I probably am down to waiting for that, and then maybe getting one with MX brown and one with MX blue and seeing which I like better. Will also have to see about tenkeyless or a 104 if they offer both. Then, well, maybe try a RealForce 103 for kicks also.

Thanks again!

[woody]

Yep, you're infected. Officially.

[keyboardlover]

I wish I worked for topre. Probably wouldn't have had to resort to eBay to buy my 87U.

[keyb_gr]

Yep, you're infected. Officially.

Seems like it.

Incidentally, MX blues should be less annoying on the telephone compared to other clicky switches, especially when not bottoming out hard all the time. Their click is quite high-pitched, so a good bit of that will be lost after lowpass filtering. I'd prefer PCB-mounted ones as they make a whole lot less of a racket when bottoming out, but pretty much all the boards available in the US employ plate-mounted switches.

As an additional measure, I'd look into use of a headset with a nice directional microphone. There has to be some way of using one with a telephone. It's much nicer to hear people in both ears, too (that tends to drop the levels required for a certain amount of intelligibility by as much as 20 dB).

[theferenc]

I second (or third, or whatever) the recommendation for a Realforce. I have a Happy Hacking keyboard, which uses the same switches and dark on dark keys that the 103UB uses, and you can definitely read them with little trouble in a lit room.

Now, if you work in a poorly lit room, or work only by the light of the computer monitor, it will be difficult to read them, but in most offices, it's definitely a non-issue.

And while people comment all the time on how loud my Unicomp is over the phone, no one has ever said a word about my HHKB, even when I've asked. Yes, they can tell I'm using a computer, but that's true even on my laptop keyboard (older macbook pro), which most people consider to be very quiet.

The space bar is by far the loudest of the keys, but if you are careful hitting that, or type a bit on the slow side, it is as close to silent as you're going to get with moving parts.

Oh, and keyb_gr: most phones transmit high frequency sounds the best, unfortunately. In fact, most of the time, it comes through as by the loudest, due to the aplification in the higher frequency ranges inherent in most microphone designs.

[gilgam]

I don't agree

i just get my black on black hhkb and even in my office, with a good lighting it's sometimes hard to view the letters .

I shoud check my eyes maybe :-)

[gilgam]

Indeed
 but there is a good side though, i almost touch type since i bought Realforce/hhkb keyboards...
Huge progress :-)

This way i don't care anymore about the non-azerty non-bépo layout.

[theferenc]

Maybe it's just something you get used to? Certain types of lights definitely reflect more, but standard flourescents and full spectrum 6500K bulbs don't seem to reflect at all, and I can read the keys with absolutely no trouble, nearly as easily as my IBM keys.