geekhack brand keyboard?

[pitashen]

So, many of you probably have already heard of KBTalking (squirrel) custom keyboard from Taiwan? It was a collective effort from a mech keyboard community, very much like this one, and they decided they wanted gathering everyone's input and then came up with final a keyboard design/features. It  was distributed through group ordering instead of mass produce for retailers.

Lately, they are debuting a new scissor switch based light lit keyboard KBTalking Light which is kinda cool, most of us are probably not gonne be interested but here are the photos.

http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/27426
http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/27444
http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/27460

More importantly, there is another mech keyboard still under development. KBTalking Pure, A 60% keyboard basing on the philosophy of HHKB. Here is where they discuss how their final keyboard should be (sorry, in Chinese).

http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/23806

My point is. Is there such an opportunity for community brewed keyboard branded geekhack keyboard? I guess miniguru is kinda close, but whats your take on this??

Update: I created a Poll to gauge interest: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15167

[Salash]

If there is, I am in.
That 60% keyboard with blank keycaps would look wonderful on my desk.

[sixty]

Back then, someone got an invoice from Costar (the OEM of Filco keyboards) and it came down to as low as $50 per custom branded keyboard when buying 50 or 100 of them. People here could not even agree on the colors of LEDs and nothing ever came out of it.

This community is much too disorganized for things like that to happen. If you want something to go through, you have to organize it and present it to people with a (very) limited choice. Just compare the doubleshot group order #3 and #1 vs #2 and you will see what I mean.

Full choice and taking in all wishes from users = absolute failure in a community of this size
Come up with an idea and present a concept with few choices for the users, collect money = great success

[theferenc]

I agree with sixty on this one. Benevolent dictatorship works so much better in this type of community. It's always rather amused me iMav didn't claim BDFL (benevolent dictator for life) as his title.

[Salash]

Back then, someone got an invoice from Costar (the OEM of Filco keyboards) and it came down to as low as $50 per custom branded keyboard when buying 50 or 100 of them. People here could not even agree on the colors of LEDs and nothing ever came out of it.

Who would we ask now? I bet we could get 50 - 100 people to go in on a blue switch, HHKB copy. Especially if it was half of the price of a HHKB.

[pitashen]

That would be cool
Before BKTalking, there was the TAclick, which used the platic mold of Matias Tactile Pro, and incorporate cherry switch and better keycaps.

[sixty]

Who would we ask now? I bet we could get 50 - 100 people to go in on a blue switch, HHKB copy. Especially if it was half of the price of a HHKB.

HHKB copy is not gonna happen since it will require a new mold -> $30000 tooling costs.

[keyboardlover]

Who would we ask now? I bet we could get 50 - 100 people to go in on a blue switch, HHKB copy. Especially if it was half of the price of a HHKB.

Ha! I was just about to say "if it has blues, I'm not interested." Now an ANSI tenkeyless with reds or clears would have my interest.

[Minskleip]

Another tenkeyless? Make something really spaced. Something truly ergonomic

The keycaps in the OP is really cool btw. I don't know anything about runes, but they look cool.

[Mr. Perfect]

Ha! I was just about to say "if it has blues, I'm not interested." Now an ANSI tenkeyless with reds or clears would have my interest.

Lol, me too. Actually, an ANSI tenkeyless with reds or clears would probably generate some interest. To my knowledge, limited that it is, no such thing exists. The only clears I know of are the Deck Legend and the one Cherry Corp, both of which are full size. Sixty said in another thread that reds aren't actually in production though, so that one is out.

[lootbag]

Ha! I was just about to say "if it has blues, I'm not interested." Now an ANSI tenkeyless with reds or clears would have my interest.

+1

[keyboardlover]

Lol, me too. Actually, an ANSI tenkeyless with reds or clears would probably generate some interest. To my knowledge, limited that it is, no such thing exists.

Exactly!

Sixty said in another thread that reds aren't actually in production though, so that one is out.

The last I heard was that as of January this year, reds are back in production (due to be available on a forthcoming full-size Leopold board). No idea yet if they'll be available on a tenkeyless though...

[lootbag]

I want Cherry MX Red or Clear in tenkeyless or 60%!
It will never happen.


KL, we should make our own

[Mr. Perfect]

Really? Good news! Maybe they'll stop being so damn rare now.

Now, about that tenkeyless with clears...

[cyberphine]

HHKB copy is not gonna happen since it will require a new mold -> $30000 tooling costs.

I'll preference this saying that I have limited knowledge of this subject.  I sourced a small plastic electronic.

I've been doing some research in this area.  There are tons of places that say they can do rapid prototyping for molds.  Usually around the 1.5k-2.5k area.  That comes with a limited run mold.  Usually can do a couple hundred molds before it becomes malformed.  Anyone look into the rapid prototyping companies?  (not the 3d printing like shapeways)

[lootbag]

lowpoly needs to bring his keyboard to fruition

[chimera15]

I tried to put together a homebrew board that everyone could buy their own switches and would just be the case, plate, and circuit board, but ran into difficulties trying to punch square holes in metal.   It would also be very customizable for everyone.  I was able to get caps from Signature plastics and assemble a prototype board using alps switches, and a teensy controller which is customizable.


 The main thing hanging it up is the metal sheet-work..  The circuit boards and case can be conquered I think fairly easily, there are a lot of techniques to do them.  I think I could probably cold cast the case with silicone mold like I do my sculptures, so it wouldn't need a high pressure injection cast.  I developed a method to cold cast so that the resin doesn't have any bubbles for my sculpture which should work really well.

It's all hung up on being able to do a plate for a reasonable amount right now.

[gilgam]

i work near a laser cutting factory. Maybe i can ask...

what do you need ?
size thickness quality of steel how many holes etc.

[laden3]

How about a keyboard without a metal plate?

If it is possible, will you guys consider a flexible pcb?
Trying to imitate the curvature of the IBM model m keyboards might produce some interesting typing experience.

[chimera15]

i work near a laser cutting factory. Maybe i can ask...

what do you need ?
size thickness quality of steel how many holes etc.

My thread is here.  http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:10454


I have detailed drawings there.   I can send you some that has the plate layout if you want as well.  The idea was to have two different plates, one for alps, one for cherry, but we can start with cherry.  That would be cool.  We need to get them for less than $100, preferably less than $50 to be at all competitive or reasonable though which is the problem that I've been encountering.  Every method seems to be way over that.

[chimera15]

How about a keyboard without a metal plate?

If it is possible, will you guys consider a flexible pcb?
Trying to imitate the curvature of the IBM model m keyboards might produce some interesting experience.

KBC is doing that as well, and one of the things I don't like.  The thing we need a plate for is because most existing keyboards have plates in them and are plate mounted switches.  If you don't have a plate it's extremely easy to not have the switches lineup, especially if you're using alps switches.  With alps you have to have a plate or the switches won't be in order at all.  Not to mention just the durability and sound/feel of the board is sacrificed.

[Senor_Cartmenez]

A board with MX reds, possibly tenkeyless and possibly backlit, maybe with a dash of Deck-Style doubleshots AND branded "Geekhack" ?

Awesome I say

[calavera]

I'm waiting for my fellow Koreans at OTD to sell their custom kids on ebay so I can build my own. Supposed to materialize this year..no set date though.

[keyboardlover]

I was actually going to say, I prefer PCB-mounted to plate-mounted anyway. Nicer feel and much easier to mod. Plus if you choose a strong, quality case you won't have flexing (less common in a tenkeyless format anyway). Seems like we have some interest here. Maybe I'll do a poll. Have to look into rapid prototyping... =)

[Eclairz]

I would say to keep it simple, Tenkeyless Blue Cherry, key remover tool, N-Key rollover, Additional keycaps e.g. apple/windows/linux, GeekHack Esc, WASD, relendable keycaps

Extras would be USB hub, mini usb detachable cable.

Extras which would significantly increase costs due to special functions or tooling such as "dip switch" to change keymaps, backlighting, function key to do macros. Can wait til the next revision, if demand is there.

[itlnstln]

I'm waiting for my fellow Koreans at OTD to sell their custom kids on ebay

There is so much wrong with this statement; I don't even know where to begin.

[itlnstln]

White Rice did the group buy thing right.  Basically, one person needs to choose something, say, "here it is, do you want to buy it?" and tell everyone to pretty much ****-off with their opinions.  Once, you start asking everybody what they want, it turns into the Round 3 Group Buy with about 8 million options, expensive, and never comes to fruition.

[chimera15]

I think it's possible to make a board that the buyer can fully customize.  The restriction is going to be the pcb, which is a problem I and others have conquered with the teensy controller and KBC gave the idea of having a pcb drilled both for alps and cherry.  Even if you don't like the pcb that we make, with the teensy controller it'll be easy to rematrix it because it's not going to have wires being strung all over like a standard board will which will allow the buyer to complete rewire and reprogram the thing if they want.  

The only other restriction is the plate, which if you want, you don't have to buy the plate, but it will make it more difficult to solder, and get everything perfectly straight.

A completely customizable board is a very possible goal, as I and others have proven with my and their prototypes, and at a relatively low cost, it's just some relatively minor know-how issues holding it up.  Also motivation for me.  I need to put some more time into searching out cost effective solutions.

The humble hacker is a board that has been fully prototyped as well, the only issue there again is cost, but it's a model that I took a lot of inspiration from.  DMW created completely customizable firmware that will run on teensy's that is amazing, which was the biggest step.  So many hurdles have been crossed, it's relatively little holding it up in my mind.  It's mainly just getting costs down.

I was watching a hak5darren show recently and they had a guy on there that created a bluetooth dongle that you could sniff with.  He used this service:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mossmann/ubertooth-one-an-open-source-bluetooth-test-tool

This might be a possibility.  This would give us the money to go ahead and get manufacturers in China ect which would make it a reality.

[lootbag]

If and when we do get to the case for the keyboard, I was thinking an acrylic case like the Koreans do it would be nice.

I have access to plenty of acrylic and a couple laser cutters at Architecture school!
I use it to cut pieces for my physical models all the time.


EDIT:

White Rice did the group buy thing right.  Basically, one person needs to choose something, say, "here it is, do you want to buy it?" and tell everyone to pretty much ****-off with their opinions.  Once, you start asking everybody what they want, it turns into the Round 3 Group Buy with about 8 million options, expensive, and never comes to fruition.

+1
Take it or leave it

[keyboardlover]

Once, you start asking everybody what they want, it turns into the Round 3 Group Buy with about 8 million options, expensive, and never comes to fruition.

Not to mention wayyyyy confusing. I propose:
Tenkeyless, ANSI layout, PCB-mounted clears or reds, black case (good, solid construction), vintage-style white/gray doubleshots, vintage custom GeekHack key

[itlnstln]

Once, you start asking everybody what they want, it turns into the Round 3 Group Buy with about 8 million options, expensive, and never comes to fruition.

Just to clarify, I am not trying to rag on 7_bit; I respect what he's trying to do.  When you try to please everyone around here, though, things turn very messy very fast.

[lootbag]

Not to mention wayyyyy confusing. I propose:
Tenkeyless, ANSI layout, PCB-mounted clears or reds, black case (good, solid construction), vintage-style white/gray doubleshots, vintage custom GeekHack key

I am pretty sure a lot of people would agree with almost everything on that list.
I for one, would vote for PCB mounted reds (or clears) as well.

[keyboardlover]

Oh, and windowed caps and scroll lock keys with blue LEDs (these would be non-doubleshot but similar look and feel) =)

[keyboardlover]

Update: I created a Poll to gauge interest: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=15167

[pitashen]

I think having all kinds of opinions coming from the community is fine. The important part is to have a few selected people who are (able to be )in charge of making final calls after collecting all the opinions (useful or not) and narrowing down the options that's viable.

I mean, this new scissor switch keyboard KBTalking came up with even got a timer to remind you that your instant noodle is ready (common junk food among asian computer geek/ hardcore gamers with no life).

[Shazb0t]

Not to mention wayyyyy confusing. I propose:
Tenkeyless, ANSI layout, PCB-mounted clears or reds, black case (good, solid construction), vintage-style white/gray doubleshots, vintage custom GeekHack key

This guys knows what he is talking about.  This keyboard style with clear/red switch choice is what we are all missing.  Other styles can be bought from vendors.  If it comes down to this ^, I would gladly buy one.

[keyboardlover]

Thanks! Don't forget to vote!

[tarc]

I would be interested.

Would arrow keys be possible on this kind of layout?

I was searching for a compact (+/-12") tenkeyless with arrows and there isn't so much choice. Just the Choc afaik...

tarc

[keyboardlover]

This would be a tenkeyless style similar to a Filco or Realforce tenkeyless so yes, it would have arrow keys!

[ch_123]

I propose a rambling 100 page discussion before we all settle on another Filco clone.

[pitashen]

I propose a rambling 100 page discussion before we all settle on another Filco clone.

+1
Fair enough!

[Reaif]

You have my vote.

I really like the idea of having some reds. Compact + arrow keys? YES!

[keyboardlover]

Great!

[Pylon]

Just later on, but why not have a CNC milled aluminum case with say, white keycaps? And integrate the plate with the top half of the case.

[laden3]

KBC is doing that as well, and one of the things I don't like.  The thing we need a plate for is because most existing keyboards have plates in them and are plate mounted switches.  If you don't have a plate it's extremely easy to not have the switches lineup, especially if you're using alps switches.  With alps you have to have a plate or the switches won't be in order at all.  Not to mention just the durability and sound/feel of the board is sacrificed.

I was thinking about using the top case as the plate to hold the switches as well, and it doesn't have to be a metal plate. If I am not mistaken, a Korean guy made a keyboard like this with an acrylic case.

As for alps switches, it is almost impossible to find new ones unless you order them from some Taiwanese company who are still making them. I think a top case for Cherry switches is more practical for now.

I understand that the results of using plate mounted switches without a metal plate is not satisfying.

[spolia optima]

I like where this thread is going, and I'd like to add my .2

How about a bunch of us get together and throw down on a custom Cherry build?
Say, a G80-3000 or G80-1800?

I'm sure a lot of us would agree on:
-Brown switches
-NKRO (will add a few $ per board but worth it)
-Beige / white color (leaves room for custom RIT jobs)
-Standard lasered PBT caps (again, ripe for the RIT dye)
-Orange WASD / ESC keys
-Classy, modern geekhack logo lasered on upper left or right

I don't think we need to go all-out on a "first" geekhack board. Besides, the miniguru is still on the table. No need to steal it's thunder.
A nice ANSI G80-3000 with NKRO and brown switches is a safe route and a guaranteed kickass keyboard to boot.

[RiGS]

I like where this thread is going, and I'd like to add my .2

How about a bunch of us get together and throw down on a custom Cherry build?
Say, a G80-3000 or G80-1800?

I'm sure a lot of us would agree on:
-Brown switches
-NKRO (will add a few $ per board but worth it)
-Beige / white color (leaves room for custom RIT jobs)
-Standard lasered PBT caps (again, ripe for the RIT dye)
-Orange WASD / ESC keys
-Classy, modern geekhack logo lasered on upper left or right

I don't think we need to go all-out on a "first" geekhack board. Besides, the miniguru is still on the table. No need to steal it's thunder.
A nice ANSI G80-3000 with NKRO and brown switches is a safe route and a guaranteed kickass keyboard to boot.

Wow that makes sense. Actually blank pbt caps would be even better.

[spolia optima]

Wow that makes sense. Actually blank pbt caps would be even better.

Yeah, like a white Das 2 with Nkro and a GH logo. That's what I am thinking.

[iMav]

I'd buy a few.  

Is someone willing to take lead on this?

[keyboardlover]

I'd buy a few.  

Is someone willing to take lead on this?

If you're referring to my idea then yes, I am. However at the moment I'm only gauging interest with the poll. If there are enough people interested, then I am willing to take the lead on seeing how and if we can really make it happen.