Unholy Union: Keyboard + Arcade Stick

[Amp]

I call it my "Fight Board"




Mod Inventory List:
Round 2 Mad Catz Tournament Edition (360)
9 Seimitsu 30mm screw-in buttons
3 Seimitsu 24mm screw-in buttons
1 Custom-Cut plexi from Art Hong (Link)

This is now my controller of choice for fighting games, at least for the time being, I may look into other layouts.



For the paraphrased backstory:

I've been a PC gamer for the better part of a decade now. A competitive (tournament) player for the majority of that.

When GGPO came out, I wanted to get into fighting games, even more so once SF4 started garnering hype.

Bought an MCTE first edition because the community says arcade controls are "the only way to play."

"Keyboard style sticks" become a noticed trend at fighting game tournaments over the past year or so. (A good friend of mine, Khonsu, even uses an HHKB Lite plugged into a converter to play SF4, Video, Image)

Guy's drop elbow in SSF4 is really hard for me to do on stick. I get convinced that maybe my brain is just wired for keyboard-style controls since I've used them for a decade, and a stick only for a year.

And so I build my mod, based on the recently-popular "Hit Box" Layout. Instead of your more orthodox WASD-style, think of it like ASD+Spacebar, and yes, the spacebar-located button is actually up.

Practiced for a week in training mode, then went to a local session that also held a tournament. I did far better than I ever have before.

And now I've committed.

Are fight boards "the" way to play fighting games? No, it's preference. If you've been playing on keyboards like I have your whole life, though, they might be worth a shot.

[keyboardlover]

Looks cool. I especially like the patterns the buttons are in.

[Minskleip]

Am I the only one who read "flight board"? I thought it was for flight simulators and couldn't understand what the fighting game was doing there haha.

But cool stick. Built it yourself?

[Amp]

Built it yourself?

Depends on what you mean by "built."

It's more "mod" than "build".

Bought one of these, 9 of these, 3 of these, one of these, and a whole big buttload of these. A little elbow grease and electrical wizardry made it all come together.

[Minskleip]

I should learn to read again it would seem. The green buttons makes a figure of a dog.

[Amp]

I should learn to read again it would seem. The green buttons makes a figure of a dog.

I'm not seeing it.

[kill will]

and what part of this is a keyboard ?

[kill will]

cherry wasd switches for left hand and sanwa for right hand would be an unholy union.

[nanu]

?

A hitbox is not a term used in this part of the Internet and it's not a keyboard unless it acts like one somewhere, (modding in an appropriate PCB like an i-PAC, for instance), so the term's been thrown here to be geekhack friendly, I guess. Merely that it consists entirely of buttons/keys to press with your appendages.. but I think you already know this.

[Minskleip]

I'm not seeing it.

Top left is the head, bottom most switch is the forelegs, and the rest is the body. It's jumping and about to land on its forelegs.

[symphonic1985]

Your device looks awesome and I hope you kick the stick players' butts with it. I while ago I wanted to get my friends into playing SF or VF with me but couldn't get any interest. I was going to try something like what you've done because my attempts at converting to a stick for SF never worked.

I played most of my SF on a Saturn pad back in the day. We bought a Virtua Stick but it was like a handicap. Then with my Dreamcast I had the green Agetec stick - for Virtua Fighter I was fine with it but not for SF. Then again with a Namco yellow stick on my PS2... For me, sticks feel so slow. I feel like I can't react fast enough with them, and having to maintain the right angle of your arm makes execution inconsistent. Since our fingers can operate independently I think it makes perfect sense to use them like that.

Sticks are the standard because they are intuitive for someone walking to an arcade, not because someone has proved them to be the best input device for directional controls.

Love your setup!

[kidchunks]

Nicely done amp!

I've been pc gaming for a few and HATE the 360 controller for fighting games. I never got around to using arcade sticks either. I might have to give this a shot.

Any links to instructions on how to build one?

[AvengeR]

today I read a good argument against those: you can do a hadoken while blocking at the same time, or at least block quicker than moving your joystick back because you had that key pressed already. That can lead to cheating

semi offtopic: how can you do a 360 with a keyboard, for example zangief's throws? With an arcade stick that's fairly easy but I couldn't pull that off once with a keyboard

edit: what converter does your friend use? I assume he's playing on a 360

[kill will]

People who are good with keyboard do 360s like 100% I dont knowhow.

[Amp]

today I read a good argument against those: you can do a hadoken while blocking at the same time, or at least block quicker than moving your joystick back because you had that key pressed already. That can lead to cheating

Being able to block and press/hold forward at the same time is a bug in certain game software. The only notable example was in HD:Remix, and it was fixed.

At the speed these games move, if you decide to block instead of hitting the punch button to throw your fireball, the difference between slamming the stick back into block position is going to be extremely minimal. I would be very surprised if someone was actually able to effectively utilize what little time advantage there is (despite being minimal, it's there, I won't lie) to be able to give himself the time to decide whether to throw a fireball or not in the moments between inputting the motion and inputting the attack button.

I can address other concerns later, but I personally only think it's cheating in games which carry the block/walk option select (GGXX Accent Core, or so I've heard). I've actually done some research, (moar) on the effects of having access to opposing cardinal directions in at least one game, I'll be testing more later.

[AvengeR]

how about zangief's 360s with a kb?

about a month ago I bought my first arcade stick (and yes I went berserk on it. Dualmod, imp, mc cthulhu and everything) and it's amazing how easy is to do that whereas before he was just a prohibitive char.

Also I have interest in this kb+arcade stick thing because I'm not really precise with a stick. I'm using a seimitsu l-33 with a square restrictor; maybe I should get used to it or should I change the restrictor or even the stick itself?

[Amp]

I don't play 360 characters, so I couldn't really say with absolute authority whether 360's would be prohibitively hard or not.

I did post some thoughts on SRK about that situation in particular however. But take my thoughts with a grain of salt:
Link 1
Link 2 (See After EDIT)
Link 3

EDIT: I'm putting the "is it cheating?" debate to rest tonight. I started a thread on SRK where I'm going through a whole bunch of tests to determine on a case-by-case basis which games would truly constitute "cheating" by using a fight board. Results of tests will be posted there.

[kidchunks]

Hey amp,
I found this video of you talking about the unholy fight board when playing mvc3.
[video=youtube;WYLajPO3AnU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYLajPO3AnU[/video]

Do you still feel that way? I agree that the moves do look like they're coming out pretty fast.

[Arc'xer]

Hey amp,
I found this video of you talking about the unholy fight board when playing mvc3.

Do you still feel that way? I agree that the moves do look like they're coming out pretty fast.

They seem have fixed the ability for the board to do the kind of things mentioned such as double-sided blocking or charge and move.

In the end it's quite an interesting system for those who are weary and or shocked by it and don't understand. It's technically superior to a keyboard due to the reduction in amount of buttons, increased size of the buttons, size in comparison to the keyboard itself(stability, ergonomic) and isolation of the required buttons. Plus considering most people would use some cheapo keyboard and not higher end board for these games it would seem to cause more surprise by the costs of the keyboards we have around here rather than the arcade boards costing similar amounts. I always found it strange that most seem to find the idea of this system or hell a keyboard so shocking for these games. Most if not all fighting games are pretty much digital there's no analog systems in place and if there is analog it's merely a single state of operation.

The hitbox/fightbox operates just like a keyboard pure digital one press, one action. Same with the stick it's a analog feel(spring; travel) with digital(microswitch) single state actuation; the hitbox/fightbox merely translates the digital function and removes the analog and travel. It's no wonder people keep shouting it's cheating or unfair, you basically just eliminated a chunk of time and muscle movement and translated it into the fingers. In a way it's kinda like the various console attachments for using a keyboard and mouse, the keyboard just allows you to input so much more quickly.

[video=youtube;ZuGaeg0c-0E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuGaeg0c-0E[/video]

[curzen]

I haven't played arcade style fighters in earnest for a decade now, but I think I'd still want a stick

[aggiejy]

Looks awesome! :panda:

[Amp]

@Arc'xer
You're using "they" in the context of the Hit Box, a specific product from a specific company.

SOCD's are still an issue for other controllers, regardless of whether or not they are an issue for the Hit Box.

@kidchunks
That video was done very off-the-cuff while I was at a tournament, I wanted to simply demonstrate some strange effect that MvC3 had when SOCD's were in play. I do still believe that SOCD's allow players to gain an unfair advantage in MvC3, but the only way to properly fix that is with a patch to the game software itself, it'd be too much of a hassle for tournament organizers to ban. Big thanks to DFW Jay, but I think a few mistakes were made all around simply because it _was_ very heat of the moment kind of stuff going on, especially since he was also editing and uploading footage for the Bar Fights tournament then as well.

As far as my personal opinions on the matter, a long time ago with the "Are SOCD's cheating?" project the Tech Talk community and I managed to put together a nice little PSA that we think sums up the issues nicely, as well as good ways to deal with them.

You can find the community PSA here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CdnBtdBG4ZFqVFdFzvmQetP0-QHD-y4PXIK395-dn0U/edit?hl=en_US

@curzen
I would have thought the same, some time ago.

That is, until I realized, I'm not Alex Valle. I didn't pop out of my mother holding an HRAP and a copy of Alpha 2, I've been on keyboards and mice since I started taking competitive gaming seriously in StarCraft: Brood War.

I was going through hell trying to learn all the different execution tricks, trying to get combos and special moves out, as well as learning how to switch from blocking low, to high, and back to low during defensive phases of the game while I was using arcade-style joystick controls.

After I switched to Hood Nation (affectionate nickname from my local community) it didn't even take me 4 hours of game time before I was already better than I ever was with a joystick.

On that note, just for funzies, once I get my KBC Pokers in, I'll see if I can scrounge up a Xbox 360 converter and play AE with an actual keyboard instead of a controller altogether.

[IvanIvanovich]

The Real Deal: Advanced Input Devices AID-4
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 20879[/ATTACH]

[Polaris]

On that note, just for funzies, once I get my KBC Pokers in, I'll see if I can scrounge up a Xbox 360 converter and play AE with an actual keyboard instead of a controller altogether.

 
sanwa's are better than any cherry switch imo. i hate kara'ing with a kb

cant wait for my 24mm sanwas to come in, making my own custom "hitbox" out of my old hrap2

[Amp]

Sanwa

Seimitsu > Sanwa, hush.

[quadibloc]

You're using "they" in the context of the Hit Box, a specific product from a specific company.

Well, that specific company likely has more than one person working there. At least in British usage, therefore, this is entirely correct, while in at least some cases American usage does prefer a singular pronoun.

[Polaris]

Seimitsu > Sanwa, hush.

meh, to each their own

after comparing 24mm seimitsu's for directional inputs, i found that i could still rest my fingers over the buttons lightly on the sanwa's without any misinputs

[TheSoulhunter]

Awesome!

[Polaris]

Hey Amp,

How did the LL QD's work out for you? What did you use to crimp them?

[ekw808]

This is very interesting, Ive wanted to play ssf4 on the computer for some time now, but I hate playing on the tournament stick, what would be the keyboard default buttons if i were to use my keyboard?? (nkro)

[Arc'xer]

This is very interesting, Ive wanted to play ssf4 on the computer for some time now, but I hate playing on the tournament stick, what would be the keyboard default buttons if i were to use my keyboard?? (nkro)

 
I guess pretty much whatever setup you'd like since you have XX-to-XXX amount of keys available depending on the keyboard layout. Plus your keyboard is NKRO, so you have redundancy over every single area of your keyboard just a matter of which keys you'd like to use. For movement pretty much a straight layout like ESDF jump to space which can be used with both thumbs and the rest is to the other side.

[Amp]

Hey Amp,

How did the LL QD's work out for you? What did you use to crimp them?

The LL QD's worked great, they fit over the microswitch pins perfectly. Though on a few I did need to use my needlenose plyers to apply some pressure. A few were wanting to fall off.

You can crimp them with anything that allows you to apply squeezing pressure: pliers, maybe needlenose, most good wire stripper tools have a "crimping end" that allows for good pressure.
 

This is very interesting, Ive wanted to play ssf4 on the computer for some time now, but I hate playing on the tournament stick, what would be the keyboard default buttons if i were to use my keyboard?? (nkro)

For the record, I still use the modified TE on console, but when I play on PC, I'm using my SteelSeries 7G.

You can remap them in the menu, which is what I will highly suggest for anyone.

However, it defaults to:

My current layout is using ASD+Spacebar for movement (Left, Down, Right + Up respectively) and the numpad for attack buttons (456 for punches, 123 kicks). You can switch those around as you like. Some people use WASD for movement, some use YUIHJK for attacks, some people even switch hands altogether and use arrow keys for movement with QWEASD for attacks. It's all about you and how you would be comfortable playing.

OH ALSO!

Just because I'm that much of an attention ****, since I'm playing primarily on PC now, I can just use fraps and not buy the expensive video equipment to capture replays of my matches.

It's easier than ever for me to be a YouTube ****!
[video=youtube;dS_Lwr4YS0k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_Lwr4YS0k&list=PL1E18C9877447EE02[/video]

[ekw808]

Awesome thanks a lot, I've been wondering for sometime now how the controls worked for the PC guess you just need FFR fingers to do the 360 combos haha

[darksakul]

@Arc'xer

That video was done very off-the-cuff while I was at a tournament, I wanted to simply demonstrate some strange effect that MvC3 had when SOCD's were in play. I do still believe that SOCD's allow players to gain an unfair advantage in MvC3, but the only way to properly fix that is with a patch to the game software itself, it'd be too much of a hassle for tournament organizers to ban. Big thanks to DFW Jay, but I think a few mistakes were made all around simply because it _was_ very heat of the moment kind of stuff going on, especially since he was also editing and uploading footage for the Bar Fights tournament then as well.

I like to say there are now SOCD cleaner boards, they prevent opposite directions to be hit simultaneously, and one direction is favored over the other.
There are plans to make your own or you can order one from Toodles