Filco or Leopold?

[manfaux]

I'm not familiar with the space bar problem...what's that about?

Leopold's space bar have a different stabilizer shaft positioning: the two side shafts are 40mm away from the middle one. Standard filco/ducky/das are something like 52mm I believe. Plus SP hasn't got the tools to make Leo space bars yet, this could be somewhat irritating.

Not a deal breaker for me though, we could always leave the space bar out when swapping with a new set of keycaps.

Other than that, the Leo's are just as good as the Filco's in every way for all practical purposes, plus better cable management, better stabilizer, cooler LEDs.

[wongster]

Hm, too bad about the delay of the new boards at EK, though it means I'll get to hold on to my money for another month. Thanks for the update majestouch.

[keyboardlover]

Majestouch, thanks for the info. Do you know if you'll carry a Leopold (tenkeyless or otherwise) with cherry reds?

[itlnstln]

Lot's of good info.  Thanks, majestouch.

[RiGS]

It's always nice to see a biased opinion, but I like his analogy on ugly wife.

[cyberphine]

I thought that this would cause a minor earthquake in the geekhack community.  Guess not.  Props to us so far.  (trollolol)

[itlnstln]

What was biased about it?

[itlnstln]

I thought that this would cause a minor earthquake in the geekhack community.  Guess not.  Props to us so far.  (trollolol)

No, I think the lack of communication is what causes the earthquake.  Majestouch has a habit of dropping a certain amount of information (which gets the membership all hot and bothered), then waiting forever to give an update, especially when things aren't going according to plan.  In the meantime, (potential) customers are confused, getting pissed, etc.  

All that said, Majestouch works hard to get these products to the US and probably wants to make sure that when he does give us an update, the information is as solid as it can be.  It's not like he's building these keyboards by hand in his garage, or something. However, the long stretches of time between updates just fuels the speculation and emotion that seems to run rampant here.

[RiGS]

After reading his comparison I have nearly thought for a second that the Leopold is superior to Filco and EK turns stone in to gold.

[itlnstln]

The experience of most of the members here, both good and bad, would validate what he said.  All of his comparisons between the Leopold and Filco are valid, and he does state where he doesn't have enough information do make a solid judgment (e.g. the different controllers).  Based on the feedback from customers, he made a product choice that firmly address quality concerns, and where there was no obvious change for the better, he seems to at have gone for something different in attempt to see if those parts perform better.

[manfaux]

Majestouch, thanks for the info. Do you know if you'll carry a Leopold (tenkeyless or otherwise) with cherry reds?

+1! Me want some redz 2

but I don't think Leopold makes a tenkeyless version that has reds though.

[theferenc]

I agree with itlnstln on this one. Majestouch was forthright and honest in his assessments, and made his decision on what to carry based on his experiences with the companies in question, as he also stated.

What I gathered from his comments was that in some ways the filco is better, in some ways the leopold is better, in some ways they are the same, and in some ways it is not quite clear which is the superior product, long term.

Given the well documented Filco issues on this site, it's amazing that he was able to ship so few with issues. This clearly shows his diligence in verifying the product prior to shipping it. But I am curious how many he ended up returning to the distributor in order to meet his quality goals.

It sounds like Leopold is more willing to work with him in this regard, and in that sense, is a better decision for him. And likely a better decision for purchasers, especially long term. If Leopold is as responsive to customer needs as he seems to be implying, that would be a HUGE step up over Filco, and can be nothing but win for the community.

And while it is nice to think of him as this great guy doing us all a favor, the fact remains that he owns and runs a business. While a large portion of his customers might very well be here, this community might also represent a small fraction of his client base. We don't know, and we are unlikely to ever know.

Mocking him, complaining, and other such behavior will likely not result in his sharing of more information. If anything, the opposite is likely to occur. So, in essence, do like a good little kid and if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

Thanks for the information, Majestouch. I, at least, greatly appreciate your news and comments.

[neo]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the real reason for breakup between EK and Diatec?

[clickclack]

To neo-
I believe I do, however if you really read what Majestouch just posted it's seems quite apparent. Outside of that it's not my place to say.
I have a great deal of respect for EK, and it was solidly earned, to be clear.

Actually the build quality is pretty much on par. Both are decent boards. The illusion that Filco boards are of high quality was probably caused by Majestouch manually sorting out bad ones before shipping. Ever noticed how the amount of topics for faulty Filcos significantly increased since they stopped shipping from the US and are coming n from Taiwan and the UK instead? Can't be a coincidence.

I personally think ^^^ this might be spot on, IMHO.

As a side note:
I think wild and frequent speculation is usually cause for great caution and perhaps skepticism. Especially when it is only negative or positive.

[manfaux]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know the real reason for breakup between EK and Diatec?

I don't think anyone buy Majestouch himself would know  diatec can go **** themselves for all I care,  mechanical keyboards ain't no rocket propeller or nuclear warheads, plenty of other manufacturers already do a good job of making them, if they don't want to do business with us then it's their problem.

[neo]

diatec can go **** themselves for all I care,  mechanical keyboards ain't no rocket propeller or nuclear warheads, plenty of other manufacturers already do a good job of making them, if they don't want to do business with us then it's their problem.

How do you know they don't want to do business with "us"? All I know they no longer do business with EK. To paraphrase your message, importing and distributing ain't no rocket science...

[manfaux]

How do you know they don't want to do business with "us"? All I know they no longer do business with EK. To paraphrase your message, importing and distributing ain't no rocket science...

Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.

[.XL]

How do you know they don't want to do business with "us"? All I know they no longer do business with EK. To paraphrase your message, importing and distributing ain't no rocket science...

Actually, it's a LOT harder than you think. I used to think it was easy, too. Then I picked up Supply Chain Management as my second major. There's a hell of a lot to it.

Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.

I doubt that's how they feel. It was probably a personal thing between Majestouch and his Diatec rep. Majestouch probably asked them to do better quality screenings, rep got insulted, started acting cold to Majestouch. Doing business with Asians (especially Japanese/Koreans/Taiwanese) is tough ****.

Source: My other major is International Business, and I have experience procuring goods from China.

[RiGS]

Here’s a funny quote:

Rocket science isn’t all that difficult. It’s not brain surgery.

A rocket scientist

[manfaux]

I doubt that's how they feel. It was probably a personal thing between Majestouch and his Diatec rep. Majestouch probably asked them to do better quality screenings, rep got insulted, started acting cold to Majestouch. Doing business with Asians (especially Japanese/Koreans/Taiwanese) is tough ****.

lol now we need Mr.majestouch to confirm your story, sounds pretty convincing to me.

[wongster]

Too many stories/speculations, not enough keyboards!

[Variable]

ease of acquisition is the reason I'm waiting for a leopold

plus hey, try something new, there will probably be a surge of em around here for a period after they become available so it should be fun

[neo]

Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.

Impeccable logic...

[neo]

Actually, it's a LOT harder than you think.

Don't even try to pretend to know what I think. :smile: There might be "a lot to it" but it most certainly "ain't rocket science". I would still say making the damn things is a lot harder than importing them.

[digitalleftovers]

Once again, thank you for your generosity, Majestouch.

This is your chance, people.  Beat the leopolds to market with a Geekhack community keybaord.  GO GO!

[.XL]

Don't even try to pretend to know what I think. :smile: There might be "a lot to it" but it most certainly "ain't rocket science". I would still say making the damn things is a lot harder than importing them.

Don't pretend to know the process that goes into procuring goods, just like I don't pretend to know what goes into rocket science.

Making them isn't 'a lot harder,' it's a simple assembly-line process. If making them was so hard, they wouldn't be making them in Taiwan utilizing extremely cheap labor.

I won't go into the processes required in procuring goods here, as I'm sure people that have gone through these motions (i.e. - majestouch) understand it's no walk in the park.

[manfaux]

Jibber jabber jibber jabber.

I won't speculate on the quality of one versus the other until the Leopolds start shipping in volume.

Anybody remember Moogle's Filco Versus Ducky comparisons?   After the initial Chinaphilia the Duckies ended up being pretty Sucky.

Tons of people have posted reviews the Leopolds on OTD, they look just fine, there are a few things here and there which are inferior to the Filco but nothing really noticeable unless you own a microscope. But ya you are right, until we all get Leopolds in our own hands, no further conclusions should be drawn about them.

[.XL]

Tons of people have posted reviews the Leopolds on OTD, they look just fine, there are a few things here and there which are inferior to the Filco but nothing really noticeable unless you own a microscope. But ya you are right, until we all get Leopolds in our own hands, no further conclusions should be drawn about them.

I think majestouch should send review models out to every one of us

[cyberphine]

Jibber jabber jibber jabber.

I won't speculate on the quality of one versus the other until the Leopolds start shipping in volume.

I'll second that comment.

[neo]

Don't pretend to know the process that goes into procuring goods

I don't pretend to know. I know. YOU on the other hand, do pretend to know my level of experience and knowledge on this subject.

If making them was so hard, they wouldn't be making them in Taiwan utilizing extremely cheap labor.

Taiwan has extremely cheap labor? Somebody needs another course...

[.XL]

I don't pretend to know. I know. YOU on the other hand, do pretend to know my level of experience and knowledge on this subject.

Enlighten me then, seeing as I have apparently been misinformed about the ease with which someone procures and transports large orders of goods.

Taiwan has extremely cheap labor? Somebody needs another course...

It's nearly the same as labor cost on the eastern coast of China. For that reason Taiwanese manufacturers as well as many other foreign companies are relocating their factories farther into the interior, like Chengdu.

[manfaux]

[neo]

Taiwan has "extremely cheap labor" and for that reason Taiwanese manufacturers are relocating their factories to Chengdu? You are making less and less sense...

[.XL]

Taiwan has "extremely cheap labor" and for that reason Taiwanese manufacturers are relocating their factories to Chengdu? You are making less and less sense...

I thought you knew about this kind of stuff?

Taiwan labor costs ~ east cost China labor costs. Cheap from our perspective, but expensive for Chinese standards. So many manufacturers are moving production farther into the interior to save on production costs.

Point being, seeing as their more worried about saving money on labor than getting out a high quality product, it's safe to say this stuff isn't very hard to manufacture.

And with that, I'm going to step out. No need to derail the thread any further. If you'd like to take it any further just pm me and we can figure it out.

[bytemeavaj]

All I know is that I'm very happy with my Filco.

[Rairden]

Don't pretend to know the process that goes into procuring goods, just like I don't pretend to know what goes into rocket science.

Making them isn't 'a lot harder,' it's a simple assembly-line process. If making them was so hard, they wouldn't be making them in Taiwan utilizing extremely cheap labor.

I won't go into the processes required in procuring goods here, as I'm sure people that have gone through these motions (i.e. - majestouch) understand it's no walk in the park.

I'd agree with Neo here.  I think XL you might be oversimplifying product production.

I'd think that transporting goods, and working out a deal, would be way easier than engineering products, assembling them, hiring people to work on them, etc.

Say it's $30 to ship something from Europe to USA and consider all the costs to get to your doorstop.  Jet fuel, diesel fuel for semi-trucks, gasoline for UPS trucks, driver labor, computer systems (tracking, clerks, paperwork).


If I had to chose which would be less stressful, faster, easier I'd say acquiring 10,000 keyboards from overseas would be easier.  The production process takes capital, months of planning, employment, etc, whereas making a deal can be done in 24 hours over a phone call just choosing a shipping method.

Idk.

Derail complete.

[manfaux]

I'd agree with Neo here.  I think XL you might be oversimplifying product production.

I'd think that transporting goods, and working out a deal, would be way easier than engineering products, assembling them, hiring people to work on them, etc.

Say it costs $30 to ship something from Europe to USA considering all the costs to get to your doorstop.  Jet fuel, diesel fuel for semi-trucks, gasoline for UPS trucks, driver labor, computer systems (tracking, clerks, paperwork).


If I had to chose which would be less stressful, faster, easier I'd say acquiring 10,000 keyboards from overseas would be easier.  The production process takes capital, months of planning, employment, etc, whereas making a deal can be done in 24 hours over a phone call just choosing a shipping method.

Idk.

Derail complete.

well importing 10,000 of anything isn't just a simple matter of making a call and choosing a shipping method, there is such a thing called the customs.

[keyboardlover]

Leopold has a cooler name. Therefore they are better.

Just sayin'.

[.XL]

I'd agree with Neo here.  I think XL you might be oversimplifying product production.

I'd think that transporting goods, and working out a deal, would be way easier than engineering products, assembling them, hiring people to work on them, etc.

Say it costs $30 to ship something from Europe to USA considering all the costs to get to your doorstop.  Jet fuel, diesel fuel for semi-trucks, gasoline for UPS trucks, driver labor, computer systems (tracking, clerks, paperwork).


If I had to chose which would be less stressful, faster, easier I'd say acquiring 10,000 keyboards from overseas would be easier.  The production process takes capital, months of planning, employment, etc, whereas making a deal can be done in 24 hours over a phone call just choosing a shipping method.

Idk.

Derail complete.

Since the trains already halfway off the rails, why not finish the job we started?

The discussion was producing vs. procuring. To set up a production run can be challenging, but transporting is also difficult. Hence the large amount of 3PLs out there. We're not talking simply get a keyboard from point A to point B (though that is still quite difficult), we're talking of the whole process. This includes finding a supplier, negotiating with them, arranging a 3PL to transport all your goods for the cheapest way possible, and then continuing this process over and over again. It sometimes breaks down, like it did with Filco (whether that was due to inability to meet demand or to product defects we don't know), but the supply chain needs constant management to ensure it operates smoothly.

There's a reason Supply Chain Management and Logistics are two of the hottest fields right now. Logistics isn't a click to order and then sit back and relax deal.

You're welcome to believe what you like, but from my experiences working in warehouses, procuring, and in school have taught me different.

well importing 10,000 of anything isn't just a simple matter of making a call and choosing a shipping method, there is such a thing called the customs.

And even before and after it passes through customs, you have to choose how to transport. Do you fly it over? That'll take the least amount of time and keep your customers happy, but it'll be very, very expensive. Do you throw them in a container and ship them over? That'll be cheap, and considering mechanical keyboards weigh some 3lbs each, 10,000 keyboards would approach the 40,000lb limit, so you would do well to fill the rest of the space. It will cost you less, but it could take 2-3 months to arrive. Either way, you'll need to arrange a truck at some point. Whether from an airport (expensive), port (semi-expensive), or train station (cheapest). You also have to deal with train companies, which suck and take forever to do anything.

[Rairden]

XL, thank you good sir for the knowledge.  How much do I owe you?  Paypal?  

I just ordered a filco for $161 from armygroup.  Fug it.

[.XL]

XL, thank you good sir for the knowledge.  How much do I owe you?  Paypal?  

make majestouch import faster

[neo]

Leopold has a cooler name. Therefore they are better.

Just sayin'.

Much more importantly, the cool Leopold name could be peeled off and thrown away. Making it way better indeed.

[keyboardlover]

All I know is that when I order something from China, it's here in 7 days. EMS is freakin' fast!

[.XL]

All I know is that when I order something from China, it's here in 7 days. EMS is freakin' fast!

Is that business days? I've been waiting on my Filco since last Friday! I can't take it anymore...

[keyboardlover]

Yes. Where are you located? I'm on the east coast.

Plus I think asians like me cuz I'm a Girls Generation fan. They know me and Taeyeon be tight, yo.

Edit: hey, when did we get stickies??

[.XL]

Maryland. Just outside DC. Last update was Monday, when it was leaving for Kennedy airport in NY. I hope it landed hahah...

[pm_]

Seeing how there is no real distributor of Filco's anymore in the USA right now, I think it's pretty clear that they don't want to do business with us ignorant Americans.

I initially emailed Diatec in December.  They said they were working out an agreement with a new distributor for North America, and initially hoped to announce by the end of January.  I emailed them again last week, and they said they're still working on the agreement and hope to announce by the end of February.  

I'm not holding my breath for the end of February, but it does look like there will be a new North American Filco distributor in the not-to-distant future.  I look forward to having a state side choice for both Filco and Leopold, and will wait until that time to make a decision.  

I really want US distribution for Ducky, KBC, and Noppoo too.  Choice and more competition are great, but that's probably not happening in the same timeframe. I'd also love to tell someone that I have have a (K)ey(B)oard to (C)heer You Up...I can see the rolleyes now from the unenlightened.  

[dp88]

Makes sense to me. This map looks oddly missing something (and I'm not talking Nigeria).

The European Union?

[RiGS]

probably The Queen Elizabeth II

[manfaux]

I initially emailed Diatec in December.  They said they were working out an agreement with a new distributor for North America, and initially hoped to announce by the end of January.  I emailed them again last week, and they said they're still working on the agreement and hope to announce by the end of February.  

I'm not holding my breath for the end of February, but it does look like there will be a new North American Filco distributor in the not-to-distant future.  I look forward to having a state side choice for both Filco and Leopold, and will wait until that time to make a decision.  

I really want US distribution for Ducky, KBC, and Noppoo too.  Choice and more competition are great, but that's probably not happening in the same timeframe. I'd also love to tell someone that I have have a (K)ey(B)oard to (C)heer You Up...I can see the rolleyes now from the unenlightened.  

good to know, I hope they pick a good partner like Newegg!