Author Topic: Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.  (Read 9549 times)

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Offline Z Overlord

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 19:58:58 »
I feel I need to "pick up" my mouse often in games like TF2. I also feel I'm "doing it wrong" when it comes to my aiming and such. I use a Logitech G9x. My mousepad is a Destructor. My table is an IKEA Galant in case it matters.

I play at 1920x1200 (24" HP LP2475w), so I need DPI above 800 :dance:

Below is my settings and setup.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 February 2011, 15:45:36 by Z Overlord »

Offline manfaux

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 21:11:06 »
Not sure what you are doing 'wrong' but, you gotta un-tick that 'Use OS native drivers' option first.

maybe try a higher DPI setting?

Offline fingers of death

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 21:19:56 »
Quote from: manfaux;298561
... you gotta un-tick that 'Use OS native drivers' option first...


Why?
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Offline Arc'xer

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 21:35:26 »
Quote from: fingers of death;298567
Why?

Exactly it's not necessary just leave it be with use native OS. It's not gonna do much so long as you leave it at 6/11 so you get 1:1.

Second set your polling rate to 500hz, 1000hz most likely fluctuates between 600-900, it's hardware based fault usually the motherboard.

Picking up your mouse and setting back down doesn't mean your doing it wrong. It fully depends on your sensitivity and on how you use your mouse. For example quake players who use low sense, acceleration will often and sometimes continuously pick up their mouse and set it back down to flick it to activate the acceleration and deactivate it. Just like people with low-to-ultra low sensitivity 40-100cm/360 will do the same.

Your razer destructor is more of a medium-to-high sensitivity mouse pad. It's not really conducive to low sensitivity.

Offline manfaux

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 21:53:53 »
Quote from: fingers of death;298567
Why?


no idea, I just thought handing anything over to Windows to handle is dangerous.

Offline killy

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:12:38 »
- In general you need lower DPI. I play in the medium between high and ultra-low sens. My DPI is set such that aiming in a 90 degree cone from the crosshair allows fine tuning but to turn around you will need to sweep the mouse once or twice.

- Pick a DPI setting on the lower end.

- Most importantly, play with one setting until you get used to it. There is no 'magic' DPI.

- When aiming, all you can do is practice. However, a critical component of FPS is dodging, that is, using your WASD to move around and make it harder for your opponent to aim. You can use this strafing to your advantage and help you aim your crosshair. Keep your crosshair mostly still while using the WASD to fine adjust.

- Situational awareness. This is the number 1 reason why people are good in any game. Be aware of what's going on around you, never have tunnel vision.

- Be smart. Flank.

Offline Z Overlord

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:23:02 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;298579
Second set your polling rate to 500hz, 1000hz most likely fluctuates between 600-900, it's hardware based fault usually the motherboard.

Interesting, didn't realize this. By motherboard do you mean my PC's motherboard or the circuit board in the mouse? Anyways, I will try 500hz.

Also I've been using 1700 DPI for a while actually, despite what the screenshot said. I use a G9x.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:25:40 by Z Overlord »

Offline manfaux

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:33:09 »
Quote from: Z Overlord;298597
Interesting, didn't realize this. By motherboard do you mean my PC's motherboard or the circuit board in the mouse? Anyways, I will try 500hz.

Also I've been using 1700 DPI for a while actually, despite what the screenshot said. I use a G9x.

Your PC's motherboard; the P55 chipset for example, has a notorious USB controller problem of clipping the USB polling rate.  500Hz is well enough for most scenarios and will definitely more stable.

Offline Arc'xer

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #8 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:34:11 »
Quote from: killy;298595
- In general you need lower DPI. I play in the medium between high and ultra-low sens. My DPI is set such that aiming in a 90 degree cone from the crosshair allows fine tuning but to turn around you will need to sweep the mouse once or twice.

- Pick a DPI setting on the lower end.

- Most importantly, play with one setting until you get used to it. There is no 'magic' DPI.

- When aiming, all you can do is practice. However, a critical component of FPS is dodging, that is, using your WASD to move around and make it harder for your opponent to aim. You can use this strafing to your advantage and help you aim your crosshair. Keep your crosshair mostly still while using the WASD to fine adjust.

- Situational awareness. This is the number 1 reason why people are good in any game. Be aware of what's going on around you, never have tunnel vision.

- Be smart. Flank.

Just because lower sensitivities can use low DPI doesn't necessarily mean you NEED to use low DPI.

http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=295696&postcount=59

Post of mine with all the links unified; to the different schools of DPI.

Yours fall into the minimum DPI needed crowd who seems to utilize DPI based on their sensitivity using the phoon style calculator. You can easily adjust your sensitivity to move exactly the same distance using higher values of DPI.

Quote from: manfaux;298600
Your PC's motherboard; the P55 chipset for example, has a notorious USB controller problem of clipping the USB polling rate.  500Hz is well enough for most scenarios and will definitely more stable.

Yeah but it's still wouldn't hurt to have an extra 500 updates if the polling rate could be stabilized. Though it's a shame not many offer proper support for polling rate division based on the refresh rate.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 February 2011, 22:38:02 by Arc'xer »

Offline Z Overlord

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #9 on: Sun, 20 February 2011, 23:21:10 »
hmm, so at 1920x1200, can I at least have a ballpark of what DPI I should use?

Offline squarebox

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 00:06:54 »
Quote from: Z Overlord;298621
hmm, so at 1920x1200, can I at least have a ballpark of what DPI I should use?


1800 should be a comfortable dpi for you to use.

I use 1800/3500 dpi at 1920 x 1080,
I would say 1800 dpi is very comfort for precision work like photoshop and autocad.
For gaming, I swap in between 1800 and 3500 depending on the playing style I'm using at the moment.
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Offline killy

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 00:38:08 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;298602
Just because lower sensitivities can use low DPI doesn't necessarily mean you NEED to use low DPI.

http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=295696&postcount=59

Post of mine with all the links unified; to the different schools of DPI.

Yours fall into the minimum DPI needed crowd who seems to utilize DPI based on their sensitivity using the phoon style calculator. You can easily adjust your sensitivity to move exactly the same distance using higher values of DPI.



Yeah but it's still wouldn't hurt to have an extra 500 updates if the polling rate could be stabilized. Though it's a shame not many offer proper support for polling rate division based on the refresh rate.


What I meant is that you should set up your DPI / sens such that you have fine control on a 90 deg. cone and then sweep to turn 180 - 360. Or something similar. Lower in general is better.

Offline symphonic1985

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 02:23:04 »
I spent a lot of time thinking about mice and aiming a while ago, especially for TF2. If you're not using acceleration then the best way to measure your mouse sens is the distance it takes to turn 360 degrees. The best competitive scouts play at about 12 inches/360. They use strafing to aim a lot with mouse movements to snap on to correct. Top soldiers use slightly higher sens, but 25-30 cm/360 is a popular range amongst these competitive guys in general.

Personally I play at about 27 cm/360. Posture wise I think it's good to keep a chunk of forearm on your mouse mat. Then my wrist controls fine tuning from a nice stable foundation and I move my whole forearm to, e.g., turn around.

Have you visited gotfrag?

Offline Koeitje

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 04:05:09 »
Its the same sensor as my Xai, and I believe you need to use 90dpi steps. So 1800dpi would be fine (don't believe the omgomogmogmusthave50000dpi hype). Polling rate to 500 or 600hz so its stable. As for the rest of the settings you should enable raw input in TF2 if you haven't already (to stop windows from interfering, it might not actually do anything in your situation but better safe than sorry). I play TF2 at a fairly high level (6v6, scout, div1 level) and use a sensitivity of about 35cm for a 360 turn. When I play soldier I sit around 25cm. 20-25cm I would consider a good figure if you don't want to use a different sensitivity for different classes. So I'd say buy a bigger mousepad (Puretrak Talent or something) and go for it. Yours looks like a destructor? I really hated it, wore down so fast and wasn't as smooth as I wanted it.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 February 2011, 04:11:19 by Koeitje »

Offline bugfix

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 07:00:30 »
I used 5600dpi with a mouse sensitivity of 10 in TF2.
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Offline fingers of death

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 10:14:18 »
Quote from: manfaux;298588
no idea, I just thought handing anything over to Windows to handle is dangerous.


A little bit of 'angle snapping' ain't the plaque, either. :eyebrows:
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Withinside wondrous and expansive; its gates are not closed;
I hope thine are not.

Offline symphonic1985

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 10:49:30 »
@Koeitje
Quick question about scout play - Do you jump much when dodging, or try to stay ground based for quicker changes of direction? I don't want to develop bad habits that only work on mediocre players.

Offline Koeitje

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 11:50:30 »
Quote from: symphonic1985;298778
@Koeitje
Quick question about scout play - Do you jump much when dodging, or try to stay ground based for quicker changes of direction? I don't want to develop bad habits that only work on mediocre players.

Depends on the terrain and who's shooting me. Demo's who are using normal grenades I don't jump, if they use stickies I do jump. Versus scouts it depends, normally you would like to avoid jumping because it throws of your aim and you are a bit more predictable, but in some situations it can be favorable to jump a bit  (throw a bit of airstrafing in there). For example if you are really close to him and you have to reload. Versus soldiers I jump when they use rockets, don't jump when they use the shotgun.

Try to to maximize distance when being shot at and close it when you want to fire. Strafe irregularly from side to side (This is an art, players like Predz can time this so well he moves right before you want to fire), but also forward and back if you have the room. This will make it harder for soldiers to hit you, will reduce hitscan damage if you time it well and it makes it harder for enemies coming in from the side to hit you (its really easy to hit people from the side if they only strafe left-right cause for the guy shooting from the side the target is only going forward/backward). I have to say my dodging is fairly mediocre and try and abuse the terrain to compensate.

I aim mainly by strafing and then small adjustments by mouse. Some other people track or flick more with their mouse, it just depends on what you prefer. If you are really good and used to flicking jumping and aiming will be easier.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 February 2011, 12:11:27 by Koeitje »

Offline Conditioned

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 15:02:25 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;298579


Second set your polling rate to 500hz, 1000hz most likely fluctuates between 600-900, it's hardware based fault usually the motherboard.



Thats only with p55 and/or other special circumstances (I know 1(!) who had this with sandy bridge and xp - not win7 64x).

Use mousemovement recorder to find out (comes with markc mouse fix)

Personally I find 500 not nearly as good as 1k, I accidentally set it once and couldnt aim until I found out what the problem was. Ofc I used 1k for.. 7-8 years or so so probably just habit.

If you have a good cpu and mouse movement recorder shows even 1k (or close) I recommend that.
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Offline Z Overlord

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #19 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 15:37:45 »
Quote from: symphonic1985;298656
Have you visited gotfrag?

No I haven't, what's it about?

Quote from: Koeitje;298667
Yours looks like a destructor? I really hated it, wore down so fast and wasn't as smooth as I wanted it.

Yeah it is :sad:

I'll look into other mousepads, such as the one you suggested. Any other recommendations or feedback on mouse pads? Are mouse armrests good? And my table is an IKEA Galant in case it matters.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 February 2011, 15:42:19 by Z Overlord »

Offline Half-Saint

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #20 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 16:56:38 »
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is for me.

When I play TF2 it sometimes happens that I end up looking at the floor all of a sudden or I can't turn my head (in-game) left-right. First I thought it was my desk so I used my KAI G3 mousepad but it still happens occasionally.

Is it the mouse or the pad or the game? My sensitivity is set to medium DPI on the mouse.
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Offline Arc'xer

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #21 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 18:21:27 »
Quote from: Koeitje;298667
Its the same sensor as my Xai, and I believe you need to use 90dpi steps. So 1800dpi would be fine (don't believe the omgomogmogmusthave50000dpi hype).

The SROM on the ADNS-9500 for the G9X/500/700 is different allowing for true 100DPI stepping.

Quote
I'm not entirely sure what the problem is for me.

When I play TF2 it sometimes happens that I end up looking at the floor all of a sudden or I can't turn my head (in-game) left-right. First I thought it was my desk so I used my KAI G3 mousepad but it still happens occasionally.

Is it the mouse or the pad or the game? My sensitivity is set to medium DPI on the mouse.

Either your mouse is a lower end/bad/older gaming mouse and it is hitting it's max tracking speed. Either by having low sensitivity and high DPI and your forcing the mouse to have a lower in-game max tracking speed above it's engines max and going into malfunction speed through software. Or your mouse physically cannot track by hardware limitation as in your moving the mouse fast enough on the mousepad to register malfunction; or a combination of both.

Also there was a recent update to add raw input to the source engine. Raw input should assist in eliminating a lot of negative acceleration brought on by high dpi.

Offline killy

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #22 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 21:14:39 »
Quote from: bugfix;298699
I used 5600dpi with a mouse sensitivity of 10 in TF2.


Jesus. At what resolution?

800 DPI x 3.7 sens, 1440 x 900.

Offline Koeitje

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #23 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 21:51:21 »
Quote from: killy;299109
Jesus. At what resolution?

800 DPI x 3.7 sens, 1440 x 900.


Resolution doesn't matter. Doesn't affect cm/inch for 360.

Offline Z Overlord

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #24 on: Mon, 21 February 2011, 21:57:52 »
Quote from: Koeitje;299122
Resolution doesn't matter. Doesn't affect cm/inch for 360.


Yeah it does. At 1920x1200 an 800DPI mouse without mouse accel cannot be used, it just cannot.

Offline Bullveyr

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 02:34:58 »
Quote from: Z Overlord;299129
Yeah it does. At 1920x1200 an 800DPI mouse without mouse accel cannot be used, it just cannot.

Ofc it can be used, it just depends on your sensitivity.

Screen Resolution doesn't affect how much you have to move your mouse for a 360° turn.
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Offline Half-Saint

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 03:48:05 »
Quote from: Arc'xer;299026
Either your mouse is a lower end/bad/older gaming mouse and it is hitting it's max tracking speed. Either by having low sensitivity and high DPI and your forcing the mouse to have a lower in-game max tracking speed above it's engines max and going into malfunction speed through software. Or your mouse physically cannot track by hardware limitation as in your moving the mouse fast enough on the mousepad to register malfunction; or a combination of both.

Also there was a recent update to add raw input to the source engine. Raw input should assist in eliminating a lot of negative acceleration brought on by high dpi.


The mouse is a Logitech G5 Rev.2. The problem only occurs sporadically and lasts for a couple of seconds (enough to get you killed). I'll try Raw input and see what happens...
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Offline Koeitje

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 07:55:44 »
Quote from: Z Overlord;299129
Yeah it does. At 1920x1200 an 800DPI mouse without mouse accel cannot be used, it just cannot.

It does not affect the cm/inches needed to turn 360 degrees.

Use this to get your cm/360 (I'm at 32cm).

http://www.notalent.org/sensitivity/sensitivity.htm

Offline bugfix

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 08:27:11 »
Quote from: killy;299109
Jesus. At what resolution?

800 DPI x 3.7 sens, 1440 x 900.


At 1920x1080
*~Unicomp and Topre fan~*
I have:
Unicomp Customizer 105 German
Realforce 105GR
Unicomp Spacesaver German/Ansi hybrid(Current favorite)
I want:
Realforce 88GER
I used to have:
DAS Model S Ultimate EU (Sold)

Offline manfaux

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 10:43:06 »
Quote from: fingers of death;298762
A little bit of 'angle snapping' ain't the plaque, either. :eyebrows:


what does angle snapping do exactly?

Offline Arc'xer

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 14:18:06 »
Quote from: manfaux;299342
what does angle snapping do exactly?


Humans can't draw straight lines for extended movements so there is software to correct your movements by mitigating movements typically 5°-7° degrees depending on the engine as a straight line.

The implications in a gaming environment can depend and can have it's pros and cons. In particular to low sens when they turn it usually deviates a lot i.e. it's not as straight as say high sens due to the amount of distance needed to move the mouse especially in hectic situations. And even in some games it can be beneficial because it can keep your mouse cursor straight all the time thus having a consistent X/Y axis firing capability.

But that last one is also a negative because it's straightening out your movements. And I've even read of some people mentioning how angle snapping fights their control. And if your trying to aim at someone you might miss completely because the mouse is forced to go into a corrected path and not following your hand, wrist, or arm.

It really depends on the game not all games have negative consequences for using mouse prediction. In fact it's a nice feature to have a togglable mouse prediction depending on the user and the game they play. A great example is the MX518 despite the fact it's very popular even to this day, it certainly needs a complete reconstruction to improve on it(better material, microswitches, weight reduction etc.etc.) but it's engine has angle snapping despite the fact the engine is considered to be one of the best optical engines made unfortunately it might not be conducive to all gamers who don't like prediction.

Offline Koeitje

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #31 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 15:10:46 »
Prediction is ok in games like cs/css where you don't have to aim up and down. You can level out your mouse more easily and keep it at headshot level. In games like Quake you don't really want this. Some prediction isn't as bad as irregular acceleration though.

Offline killy

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #32 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 15:22:22 »
Quote from: Koeitje;299280
It does not affect the cm/inches needed to turn 360 degrees.

Use this to get your cm/360 (I'm at 32cm).

http://www.notalent.org/sensitivity/sensitivity.htm


Unless I'm missing something here, common sense tells me that the pixels is:

pixelsMoved(DPI,sensitivity) = x

Depending on your monitor resolution, x will determine whether you get nauseous or not from moving the mouse.

Offline Koeitje

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #33 on: Tue, 22 February 2011, 18:06:51 »
Quote from: killy;299480
Unless I'm missing something here, common sense tells me that the pixels is:

pixelsMoved(DPI,sensitivity) = x

Depending on your monitor resolution, x will determine whether you get nauseous or not from moving the mouse.


On a 2d plane maybe, but in a first person shooter it doesn't matter. 1600 dpi and 2.0 mouse sens give the same cm/360 on 800x600 and on 1600x1200 etc.

Offline Bullveyr

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #34 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 01:23:07 »
Quote from: killy;299480
Unless I'm missing something here, common sense tells me that the pixels is:

pixelsMoved(DPI,sensitivity) = x

Depending on your monitor resolution, x will determine whether you get nauseous or not from moving the mouse.

In an 3D engine like in a FPS the movement data from the mouse determines how many degrees your avatar turns, for example 1 cound = 0,05°.
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Offline killy

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Question about aiming, DPI, posture, etc.
« Reply #35 on: Wed, 23 February 2011, 23:25:08 »
That's counterintuitive, but TIL. Thanks.