Author Topic: Apple lle  (Read 6755 times)

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Offline bettablue

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Apple lle
« on: Sat, 12 March 2011, 12:49:53 »
I just became the new owner of a very nicely kept Apple lle computer system.  It was manufactured in the late 80's and has all of the running gear that came with it originally.  There is the dual floppy drive bay that contains the 5 1/4 floppy drives, original monochrome monitor, but the computer has a 16 bit graphics card capable of displaying 256 colors and all of the cables to get it up and running.  I bought it from a Utah School district auction site for the princly sum of $12.50.  The case is a bit yellowed, but nothing that a little scotch brite won't cure.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen it yet.  

My lifelong and best friend went to the auction site to pick it up for me ao I won't actually have it till he comes down in two weeks.  (During that time he may decide to keep it for himself.)  But I am happy with my purchase.  The system still works, but I have no idea what, if any, upgrades have been done to it.  Coming from the school district, I would assume that there is at the very least a memory upgrade.  

I do have some questions about it though.  Since it does have dual floppies, do I need the floppies to boot it up or will it boot from internal ROM?  Where can I get software for it? and more importantly, can I connect it to my home network so if I download files/programs and save them to my PC's hard drive, I can either store them on floppies or install them?  Where can I download users guides and manuals?

I used to use one of these back in the day, but I have completely forgotten anything about them, their use, what OS options there were and so on.  

I would love your comments and suggestions.  I plan on using it, so I don't want to sell it off.  This is going to be a great conversation piece in my den.  

Thanks much GeekHackers.
Vintage Computer user, and collector, specializing in the IBM 5150 Personal Computer, the World\'s first REAL PC!
Keyboards - IBM Model M X 2, IBM AT X 2, IBM KB8923, Apple IIe, and Mac SE boards. 

-----------------IBM Think!---------------------
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Offline bladamson

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Apple lle
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 12 March 2011, 20:45:36 »
If it's a //e, it'll only display 8 colors at something like 274x191 resolution.  The //gs was the one with pretty graphics.

While it's trying to boot with no disk in the drive, you can hit control-reset to drop it to the BASIC rom, but with no DOS loaded, you can't save anything.  Well, you can save to cassette tape, but eh.....

You may have trouble finding media for the thing these days.  You -must- use DD 5.25" disks, not HD, and those are getting pretty difficult to find. :/  The disk drives only have heads on one side, so to use both sides of the disk, you have to punch a notch in the other side and flip it over.  Stores 140k per side.

You'll need this to boot is and have a disk operating system: http://store.syndicomm.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=164

I don't know where to get software for them on actual disks anymore.  Best bet for that is probably to get a Mac LC with a //e card and use it to write disk images downloaded from an asimov mirror or something.  You can't write them on a PC with a DD 5.25" disk drive, because the sector size is different.  Unless you can find a 280k drive out of a PCjr or something, maybe.....

Offline Hak Foo

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Apple lle
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 12 March 2011, 20:52:48 »
* You can equip some II series machines with a 3.5" drive; I believe it may be possible to use the 400k drive made as an option for Macs, but don't quote me on that.  If you can get one of those, I believe you can then install a disc-interchange utility on an older (as in 680x0 era) Mac, so you can have an intermediary step which can potentially get you to downloadable disc images.

* I think it was possible at one point to put a (possibly modified) IIgs mobo in an IIe.

The PCjr drive was the same as the PC drive, AFAIK.  The II series disc controllers use a propriatery encoding, which makes them a ***** to interchange with anything else.
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Offline bhtooefr

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Apple lle
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 13 March 2011, 11:26:57 »
Pop it open (lid just lifts off), take a picture of it when you get it. You might hop on irc.a2central.com #a2c.chat, too.

Late 80s? So it's platinum (instead of beige), and has a numeric keypad?

The video card... not sure what it is. There's a couple of possibilities here...

  • IIGS upgrade kit. The motherboard will actually say "APPLE //GS" on it if it's this. The difference between a IIGS upgrade kit and a ROM 00 or 01 IIGS is that the upgrade kit mobos had two connectors populated that weren't on a IIGS - one to use the //e PSU, one to use the //e keyboard. (However, replacement IIGS motherboards had those connectors populated.) The kit also came with a replacement baseplate for the //e case. That said, if it's a Platinum, this is extremely unlikely.
  • Apple Video Overlay Card. It's got a complete IIGS video subsystem on a card. Worth a LOT of money, if there's one in there. Probably worth selling.
  • SecondSight. Less useful in a //e than in a IIGS, worth a lot of money, definitely worth selling.


So, here's the bare minimum, IMO, for hardware that you need, assuming it's not actually a IIGS:

  • Super Serial Card. This is a serial card, 'nuff said. (If it's a IIGS, something better is built in.)
  • Disk II interface, or equivalent. Most likely, you've already got one. (If it's a IIGS, one's built in.)
  • 64k 80-column card. Quite a lot of software needs 128k RAM. (The worst IIGS has 256k RAM.)
  • Enhancement. This consists of a 65C02 CPU, two updated ROM chips, and an updated character generator. If your machine shipped as an Enhanced or Platinum machine, you're good to go. And, the IIGS includes everything from this, and a lot more.


Here's where I get my floppies: http://oldsoftware.com/floppy_disks.html

For 3.5" drives, you need the "Liron" interface, and UniDisk 3.5 drives. (If it's a IIGS, something better is built in, that supports the faster Apple 3.5 drives.)

For getting started, you don't have to buy ANY software on floppies, you just need blank floppies, a null modem cable, and either a computer with a serial port, or a USB to serial adapter. Then, use ADTPro - it can bootstrap a machine from raw metal, just hit Ctrl-Reset to drop to BASIC, and then follow the directions - to transfer disk images across.

Things that are nice to have in a //e:

  • AppleMouse II controller. Some software is mouse-driven, and some software needs a mouse controller for a 60 Hz interrupt. (Built into the IIGS.)
  • Mass storage. 3.5" floppies aren't that useful in a //e unless you have an old Mac to manipulate them. (They do have extra capacity over 5.25" floppies, but not enough that they're not still annoying. If your machine is a IIGS, 3.5" floppies are mandatory.) There's a few options here, I have a Focus card in my IIGS. Tony usually includes 64 meg cards for //e orders (if you order one with a card), which is more than enough for a //e. Other options are the CFFA (not sure if it's in stock yet) and the MicroDrive.
  • Ethernet. Not as useful on a //e as it is on a IIGS, but it means that, once you've got an ADTPro disk, you no longer need to use a serial cable to transfer data to and from your //e.
  • Apple II Workstation Card. This is only useful if you've got a classic Mac, or a LocalTalk to EtherTalk transceiver and a machine running netatalk, but it provides full networking, file sharing and all, to your //e. I think even netbooting might be possible. Pain in the ass to set up, though. (If your machine is a IIGS, it's built-in.)
  • More memory. There's two ways to add memory: A bigger 80-column card, and a "slinky" card. Both have pros and cons, but generally, an 80-column card can do more than a Slinky card, given the appropriate drivers. Slinky cards are how Apple approved memory expansion, though. If it's a IIGS, instead of a bigger 80-column card, there are RAM upgrade cards.
  • No-slot clock. This needs a driver, but gives you a real-time clock. You can get one for free by requesting a sample of part DS1216E from Maxim Semiconductor, although you'll need to either use your work e-mail, or an educational e-mail. Built into a IIGS.
  • Accelerator. This is very, very much in the "nice to have" territory, but if you have it, oh man. Assuming you're using a real //e, there's two approaches - caching accelerators, like the Zip Chip (not the GSX model, that's for a IIGS), and duplicating accelerators like the Transwarp (again, not the GS model, which is actually caching). Caching accelerators have a small L1 cache, duplicating accelerators have their own local copy of system RAM and can therefore run faster, but have some other drawbacks that I can't recall at the moment. If you've got a IIGS, they're absurdly expensive, and a GS is almost as fast as an accelerated //e.


Operating systems... the major ones are DOS 3.3 and ProDOS. In normal use, you'll use both. On your mass storage, you'll be using ProDOS, and newer software is written to use it.

Video... this depends on the version of //e.

If your //e is the original Revision A, it'll do 280x192, 6 colors... but there's a trick, the 6 colors have placement restrictions, so you're only guaranteed 140x192. If it's Revision B, or any Enhanced or Platinum revision (including Enhanced Revision A, but not an original Revision A that's been Enhanced after the fact), it'll do 560x192, "16" colors (IIRC, one of the grays is duplicated), with the same positioning caveat. (And, the 560x192 mode is pretty much unusable on a color display for monochrome info.) There is a mod to add support for the 560x192 mode to the Revision A, however.

If it's a IIGS, it adds 320x200 16 color, 640x200 4 color, 640x200 dithered using 8 colors, simulating 16 colors, and palette switched versions of those modes.

woody

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Apple lle
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 13 March 2011, 17:02:08 »
To OP - go to "comp.sys.apple2" Usenet group, and you shall find answers to all questions.

Offline quadibloc

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Apple lle
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 14 March 2011, 11:48:21 »
The Apple //e looks like an Apple ][ except that it has a keyboard that includes lower case.

The Apple IIgs, on the other hand, looks like a white box with a separate keyboard. So that's how you can tell them apart.

Here is a picture of an Apple IIgs.

And here is a picture of an Apple //e.

For comparison, this is an Apple ][, and this is an Apple ///.
« Last Edit: Mon, 14 March 2011, 11:53:26 by quadibloc »

Offline bhtooefr

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Apple lle
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 14 March 2011, 13:04:22 »
quadibloc: But this is also a IIGS:



Began life as a //e, had IIGS badges installed, a baseplate that worked with the IIGS motherboard installed, and a IIGS motherboard. And, yes, that was an upgrade kit that Apple sold.

woody

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Apple lle
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 14 March 2011, 18:34:07 »
Guys, the world of Apple II is full of subtleties. That's why I suggested you'd better ask at comp.sys.apple2 - the people there know the stuff.

Offline bettablue

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Apple lle
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 15 March 2011, 00:15:15 »
Quote from: woody;311769
Guys, the world of Apple II is full of subtleties. That's why I suggested you'd better ask at comp.sys.apple2 - the people there know the stuff.

I do know that what I have is an Apple lle.  It has the integrated keyboard as part of the computer housing.  The only thing I'm not too completely sure of is the floppy deck.  From what I understand it is the dual floppy model.  I know these had a lot of problems, but according to my friend, who picked it up for me and is testing it, this one seems to work.  I just can't wait to get it home.  

And, I may have scored a 1984 IBM AT with keyboard.  If I'm not mistaken, it is a model F board.  Again it appears to be working, but there is no monitor with it.  All I have to pay is for the shipping from San Diego to Vegas.  I'll find out in a day or so.  Shipping shouldn't be too terrible much.  And since I'm in the market for the IBM having the proper keyboard is a plus.  And too, I know how much the model F keyboards can go for, so I shouldn't lose much money over it.  If it does work I'll be in the market for a green or amber display.
« Last Edit: Tue, 15 March 2011, 00:18:08 by bettablue »
Vintage Computer user, and collector, specializing in the IBM 5150 Personal Computer, the World\'s first REAL PC!
Keyboards - IBM Model M X 2, IBM AT X 2, IBM KB8923, Apple IIe, and Mac SE boards. 

-----------------IBM Think!---------------------
.

woody

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Apple lle
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 15 March 2011, 06:55:29 »
Quote from: bettablue;311925
I do know that what I have is an Apple lle.  It has the integrated keyboard as part of the computer housing.

Except the IIgs, all Apple II have integrated keyboards.

Quote
The only thing I'm not too completely sure of is the floppy deck.  From what I understand it is the dual floppy model.  I know these had a lot of problems, but according to my friend, who picked it up for me and is testing it, this one seems to work.

I don't have DuoDisk, but if it has the cables (which differ AFAIR from the other models) and works, you don't have to think about it for now.

Quote
I just can't wait to get it home.

Good luck and enjoy.

Offline bettablue

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Apple lle
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 19 March 2011, 15:14:29 »
Thanks for all of the info.  I'm sure it will come in usefull.  When I finally got it delivered, I was pretty shocked (in a good way) at the condition.  Other than being somewhat dirty, it is in great shape.  It does need a good cleaning.  

I did as you suggested.  When I opened it up, I found only 3 cards installed, one is the memory module, one the video card and the last is the floppy contorller.  Aside from those, it is just as it was presented.  It is beige and has no number pad.  I put together another post in the forums inquiring about additional upgrades so I can get additional perspectives.  The complete description is there too.
Vintage Computer user, and collector, specializing in the IBM 5150 Personal Computer, the World\'s first REAL PC!
Keyboards - IBM Model M X 2, IBM AT X 2, IBM KB8923, Apple IIe, and Mac SE boards. 

-----------------IBM Think!---------------------
.

Offline bhtooefr

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Apple lle
« Reply #11 on: Sun, 20 March 2011, 10:07:19 »
Link to that post?

Offline kathlenrt

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Apple lle
« Reply #12 on: Thu, 24 March 2011, 10:40:06 »
Quote from: bhtooefr;310999
Pop it open (lid just lifts off), take a picture of it when you get it. You might hop on irc.a2central.com #a2c.chat, too.

Late 80s? So it's platinum (instead of beige), and has a numeric keypad?

The video card... not sure what it is. There's a couple of possibilities here...

  • IIGS upgrade kit. The motherboard will actually say "APPLE //GS" on it if it's this. The difference between a IIGS upgrade kit and a ROM 00 or 01 IIGS is that the upgrade kit mobos had two connectors populated that weren't on a IIGS - one to use the //e PSU, one to use the //e keyboard. (However, replacement IIGS motherboards had those connectors populated.) The kit also came with a replacement baseplate for the //e case. That said, if it's a Platinum, this is extremely unlikely.
  • Apple Video Overlay Card. It's got a complete IIGS video subsystem on a card. Worth a LOT of money, if there's one in there. Probably worth selling.
  • SecondSight. Less useful in a //e than in a IIGS, worth a lot of money, definitely worth selling.

So, here's the bare minimum, IMO, for hardware that you need, assuming it's not actually a IIGS:

  • Super Serial Card. This is a serial card, 'nuff said. (If it's a IIGS, something better is built in.)
  • Disk II interface, or equivalent. Most likely, you've already got one. (If it's a IIGS, one's built in.)
  • 64k 80-column card. Quite a lot of software needs 128k RAM. (The worst IIGS has 256k RAM.)
  • Enhancement. This consists of a 65C02 CPU, two updated ROM chips, and an updated character generator. If your machine shipped as an Enhanced or Platinum machine, you're good to go. And, the IIGS includes everything from this, and a lot more.

Here's where I get my floppies: http://oldsoftware.com/floppy_disks.html

For 3.5" drives, you need the "Liron" interface, and UniDisk 3.5 drives. (If it's a IIGS, something better is built in, that supports the faster Apple 3.5 drives.)

For getting started, you don't have to buy ANY software on floppies, you just need blank floppies, a null modem cable, and either a computer with a serial port, or a USB to serial adapter. Then, use ADTPro - it can bootstrap a machine from raw metal, just hit Ctrl-Reset to drop to BASIC, and then follow the directions - to transfer disk images across.

Things that are nice to have in a //e:

  • AppleMouse II controller. Some software is mouse-driven, and some software needs a mouse controller for a 60 Hz interrupt. (Built into the IIGS.)
  • Mass storage. 3.5" floppies aren't that useful in a //e unless you have an old Mac to manipulate them. (They do have extra capacity over 5.25" floppies, but not enough that they're not still annoying. If your machine is a IIGS, 3.5" floppies are mandatory.) There's a few options here, I have a Focus card in my IIGS. Tony usually includes 64 meg cards for //e orders (if you order one with a card), which is more than enough for a //e. Other options are the CFFA (not sure if it's in stock yet) and the MicroDrive.
  • Ethernet. Not as useful on a //e as it is on a IIGS, but it means that, once you've got an ADTPro disk, you no longer need to use a serial cable to transfer data to and from your //e.
  • Apple II Workstation Card. This is only useful if you've got a classic Mac, or a LocalTalk to EtherTalk transceiver and a machine running netatalk, but it provides full networking, file sharing and all, to your //e. I think even netbooting might be possible. Pain in the ass to set up, though. (If your machine is a IIGS, it's built-in.)
  • More memory. There's two ways to add memory: A bigger 80-column card, and a "slinky" card. Both have pros and cons, but generally, an 80-column card can do more than a Slinky card, given the appropriate drivers. Slinky cards are how Apple approved memory expansion, though. If it's a IIGS, instead of a bigger 80-column card, there are RAM upgrade cards.
  • No-slot clock. This needs a driver, but gives you a real-time clock. You can get one for free by requesting a sample of part DS1216E from Maxim Semiconductor, although you'll need to either use your work e-mail, or an educational e-mail. Built into a IIGS.
  • Accelerator. This is very, very much in the "nice to have" territory, but if you have it, oh man. Assuming you're using a real //e, there's two approaches - caching accelerators, like the Zip Chip (not the GSX model, that's for a IIGS), and duplicating accelerators like the Transwarp (again, not the GS model, which is actually caching). Caching accelerators have a small L1 cache, duplicating accelerators have their own local copy of system RAM and can therefore run faster, but have some other drawbacks that I can't recall at the moment. If you've got a IIGS, they're absurdly expensive, and a GS is almost as fast as an accelerated //e.

Operating systems... the major ones are DOS 3.3 and ProDOS. In normal use, you'll use both. On your mass storage, you'll be using ProDOS, and newer software is written to use it.

Video... this depends on the version of //e.

If your //e is the original Revision A, it'll do 280x192, 6 colors... but there's a trick, the 6 colors have placement restrictions, so you're only guaranteed 140x192. If it's Revision B, or any Enhanced or Platinum revision (including Enhanced Revision A, but not an original Revision A that's been Enhanced after the fact), it'll do 560x192, "16" colors (IIRC, one of the grays is duplicated), with the same positioning caveat. (And, the 560x192 mode is pretty much unusable on a color display for monochrome info.) There is a mod to add support for the 560x192 mode to the Revision A, however.

If it's a IIGS, it adds 320x200 16 color, 640x200 4 color, 640x200 dithered using 8 colors, simulating 16 colors, and palette switched versions of those modes.


Thanks for your excellent tips. They helped me too. :)



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« Last Edit: Sat, 23 April 2011, 11:07:09 by kathlenrt »

Offline bettablue

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Apple lle
« Reply #13 on: Fri, 01 April 2011, 23:40:41 »
I finally got around to opening the monitor's case.  I don't there will be any issue with replacing the fuse.  It is definitely blown.  However, it is soldered directly to a small circuit board on the side, near the power supply transformer.  I won't know which fuse to replace it with until I can remove it.  However, it doesn't look like it's going to be much of a problem.  I will however, be replacing it with an inline fuse holder from Radio Shack tomorrow.  Then I'll also be putting a slow blow fuse in it to keep it from blowing from just a small voltage spike. The total repair time should only be about 20 minutes, including removal and replacement of the cover.
Vintage Computer user, and collector, specializing in the IBM 5150 Personal Computer, the World\'s first REAL PC!
Keyboards - IBM Model M X 2, IBM AT X 2, IBM KB8923, Apple IIe, and Mac SE boards. 

-----------------IBM Think!---------------------
.