Black Widow for RTS?

[sinani206]

Hi guys, this is my first post here.  I've been lurking this site since I discovered the beauty and wonderfulness of mechanical keyboards (from teamliquid.net).

Anyway, I want a keyboard with blue switches, and I mainly play StarCraft 2.

I am on a slight budget, not too strict, but I really don't want to get anything I don't need.  I have looked in awe at keyboards like the Leopold and Das Model S, but I really don't need NKRO for RTS, do I?  The Black Widow seems like a good budget RTS keyboard, but if anyone has a reason not to get it, please share.

Thanks!

[HaveANiceDay]

The Black Widow is probably good for the money spent.
Probably, because my friend got one that didn't work at all out of the box. The replacement he got had a faulty switch at the "4" key. Now he waits for the second replacement :/

Blues are, by MX standards, quite complex and they require some quality assurance, which Razer tries not to do apparently.

If you can test it before you buy it in a store, I'd say go for that option.
Do not be surprised if it does not work out immediately by ordering one.

Good luck!

[Fwiffo]

The macro functionality is cool, but you're generally not permitted to use macros of any kind in tournaments, if that's a concern for you.

The other concern is that Razer has gained a reputation for cheapness and poor QC.

I personally don't like the excessive size, gaudyness and glossy finish of the Black Widow, but those are all personal preference things.

Save up a few more bucks, and you can get a Leopold.

[K5Doom]

I am currently using the BW and quite frankly, I don't really like it. The layout is kind of strange and took me time to get used to it. I realised that my hand positioning is based on my bottom left CTRL, and the macro keys really messed me up at first.

Also, the numbers on top are not aligned like other keyboards I tried before and really, I don't like the "layout" in general (not sure what would be the good word here, just the general key positioning, spacing, etc...).

I play a lot of SC2, and it really took me a while to get used to it and I'm still not totally comfortable with it.

I am planning on returning it and getting a leopold instead, good thing I bought it at Bestbuy.

[noodles256]

The macro functionality is cool, but you're generally not permitted to use macros of any kind in tournaments, if that's a concern for you.

The other concern is that Razer has gained a reputation for cheapness and poor QC.

I personally don't like the excessive size, gaudyness and glossy finish of the Black Widow, but those are all personal preference things.

Save up a few more bucks, and you can get a Leopold.

All the SC2 and CS tournaments I have been to let you use macros. You have to set it up yourself on their computers and I always felt not learning the actual hotkeys in the game is a major crutch. I really never like macros, I can only see their use in MMORPG

[Bitters]

All the SC2 and CS tournaments I have been to let you use macros. You have to set it up yourself on their computers and I always felt not learning the actual hotkeys in the game is a major crutch. I really never like macros, I can only see their use in MMORPG

just to add another perspective, most of the lan tournaments I've been to for SC2 will not allow macros

[kps]

That's surprising.  That would indicate that Jason at Razer Marketing was lying.

Not at all.

it’s not just the Cherry Blues but those with a certain characteristic/tolerance guideline.

Translation: "They're factory seconds."

I can’t go into the tolerance/sorting guidelines

Translation: "I'm not about to admit they're factory seconds."

but I can say that it provides for a different experience as opposed to a normal Cherry Blue switch keyboard.

Translation: "Factory seconds feel funny."

But seriously, I got a BW and put the switches in my oldest Kinesis, whose browns had faded to near black. Only one of them actually feels funny, and I have a few dozen leftovers to fix that when I get around to it.

[pitashen]

Blue switches are alright for RTS. Browns are better. But in the end u can still be a pro with rubber dome.

[WindD]

Just to clarify it is against Blizzard's rules and most tournaments rules to use macros. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201337
Focus on this one post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=8281271

A few tournaments may not keep this in their rule book, but most of the high profile ones do. Though I don't know how a non LAN can check. Apparently blizzard can because some people were banned after release or in beta. Can't remember which.

[hcry4]

Blizzard knows everything.

[killy]

I don't see how macros can afford you an advantage in RTS anyways.

[manfaux]

Just to clarify it is against Blizzard's rules and most tournaments rules to use macros. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201337
Focus on this one post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=8281271

A few tournaments may not keep this in their rule book, but most of the high profile ones do. Though I don't know how a non LAN can check. Apparently blizzard can because some people were banned after release or in beta. Can't remember which.

They were banned because of hacks, not macro setups, a macro script is just a combination/sequence of different normal keystrokes, there is no way Blizzard could detect it, even if they can, it's probably a tolerable action.

[Armando Penblade]

I don't see how macros can afford you an advantage in RTS anyways.

*shrugs*

A high-APM situation in SC2 could theoretically benefit from it if you just wanted to focus your mind more on a battle or something. For instance, it might be typical for you to have your Barracks (infantry units for Terran) bound to hotkey 4, your Factories (mech units) to 5, and Starports to 6 (air units), and build a certain unit at each every ~30 seconds (DDAAAA for two mauraders and four marines, SS for two siege tanks, VD for a Viking and a Medivac). Having a macro for 4DDAAAA5SS6VD would be very slightly faster and get your fingers "back in action" for issuing unit commands or scrolling between hotkeyed map locations slightly faster.

It's a tiny advantage, but if you're already operating on the upper bound of physical limitations, any tiny thing might be the trick you needed to, say, land the perfect EMP, wiping out the entire enemy army's shields before their own casters can wipe our your precious Energy (needed to cast EMP). Having your hands away for the additional 2.4 seconds (assuming 300APM) could prove disastrous in that sort of situation.

Of course, realistically, the sorts of many-key actions you could feasibly bind to a macro are also the ones you do so often that you develop enough muscle memory to probably break your "normal" APM and spam them very quickly. But quite as quickly as a 1-key macro? Maybe not

[WindD]

They were banned because of hacks, not macro setups, a macro script is just a combination/sequence of different normal keystrokes, there is no way Blizzard could detect it, even if they can, it's probably a tolerable action.

Surely people were banned for this. Someone claims that they were not. If you have another source that contradicts this one then it makes sense for you to say what you have. If not I don't get your point. Yes  some people were banned for hacking. Apparently other were banned for using macros.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=146760

"So i was banned last friday for using " Third party hardware that creates an unfair advantage"

i was using the g19 logitech keyboard.

aparently bliz has a way to find if you macro onto keyboards.

I was using it for build orders, very simple macros to pop out some units with one button instead of 2.

wtf.

had to buy the game and recreate my account..... i talked to bliz over the weekend to try and unban my account. they eventually caved and just wiped my leauge record. although the cd key was still banned so i still needed a new game.....

basically everything multiplayer was wiped and they warned me that if I use a macro enabled keyboard in multiplayer again they would ban me.

then i asked about the sc2 keyboard out on the market right now, dont have the link, but its basically supported by blizzard.

they said only 3rd party hardware/software is bannable.

i have lost some respect for blizzard.

AND I WAS JUST PROMOTED INTO PLATINUM!!! I HAD A 82-45 w/l ratio

FU blizz FU big time"

[Curetia]

I play WoW since release and I did it with my G15-macros. But I never get banned for useing my macros. I used them for buying and on boss encounters to press a key every x seconds and something else.

[vun]

If you want an advantage in RTS you should focus on doing what you think macros could do for you without actually using macros. Relying on macro keys will me more of a crutch than an advantage the way I see it, especially if you're aiming to play at higher levels.

Only time I've ever used macro keys in RTS was when I played C&C3 for a short while, I used them for the F keys since the macro keys on the G15 has a very similar layout to the build menus in C&C3.


Though I wonder how acceptable it'd be simply remapping keys to the macro keys just to make some keys easier to reach. Probably wouldn't be acceptable in the major tournament events, but at smaller online tournaments maybe?
Edit: It seems that binding macro keys to single keystrokes won't get you in trouble with Blizzard, however binding multiple keystrokes to macro keys might. Using macro keys to create what is essentially a bot is obviously not ok.
Though this sort of defeats the point of having macro keys in the first place.

[TickleMeElmo]

I think the effort required to program a macro and then train yourself to use the macro instead of building good quality macro skills in game (ie constantly training units and workers) is ultimately not worth it.

I have a BWU and I find it quite good for SC2, although to be frank I don't have a good frame of reference with any other Cherry switches. The whole double tapping issue isn't as big as it is made out to be and to put things into perspective, before people started getting into mechanical keyboards lately a lot of the Korean pros were using generic Samsung boards yet maintaining insanely high APMs and high level of play.

[vun]

The whole double tapping issue isn't as big as it is made out to be and to put things into perspective, before people started getting into mechanical keyboards lately a lot of the Korean pros were using generic Samsung boards yet maintaining insanely high APMs and high level of play.

I don't think equipment matters all that much, you can use a cheap mouse and KB while still performing. Better equipment might make it a more enjoyable and smoother experience, but I don't think it'll have a huge impact on perfomance.
Of course you'll want a good mouse for serious gaming, both FPS and RTS, but it's not always necessary.

[killy]

*shrugs*

A high-APM situation in SC2 could theoretically benefit from it if you just wanted to focus your mind more on a battle or something. For instance, it might be typical for you to have your Barracks (infantry units for Terran) bound to hotkey 4, your Factories (mech units) to 5, and Starports to 6 (air units), and build a certain unit at each every ~30 seconds (DDAAAA for two mauraders and four marines, SS for two siege tanks, VD for a Viking and a Medivac). Having a macro for 4DDAAAA5SS6VD would be very slightly faster and get your fingers "back in action" for issuing unit commands or scrolling between hotkeyed map locations slightly faster.

It's a tiny advantage, but if you're already operating on the upper bound of physical limitations, any tiny thing might be the trick you needed to, say, land the perfect EMP, wiping out the entire enemy army's shields before their own casters can wipe our your precious Energy (needed to cast EMP). Having your hands away for the additional 2.4 seconds (assuming 300APM) could prove disastrous in that sort of situation.

Of course, realistically, the sorts of many-key actions you could feasibly bind to a macro are also the ones you do so often that you develop enough muscle memory to probably break your "normal" APM and spam them very quickly. But quite as quickly as a 1-key macro? Maybe not

APM is, in my opinion, a completely superfluous metric. You do what you need to do to get it done. I play FPS a lot and the only metric, like it should be in RTS, is how many people you kill (or whether you win the round at the end of the game).

Besides, for the uber people having automatic macros like that in the background is probably very bad - it does not allow them to micromanage and respond quickly to dynamic situations.

[Armando Penblade]

APM is meaningful only if it's put to use. I can spam out 200 APM without doing a damn thing  in the game. If a pro legitimately does 2-300 useful things per minute and another only manages 100 useful things, assuming roughly equal game knowledge, things will trend toward the higher APM guy.

Of course, this only really comes into play at the absolute highest levels of play. The overwhelming majority of SC/2 players lack the knowledge, reflexes, and skill to make use of that many actions.

[sdnnvs]

I don't see how macros can afford you an advantage in RTS anyways.

Agree, and more: Pro's use grade mode shortcuts... use only left side of keyboard...

P.S.: ESL