tenkeyless?

[False_Dmitry_II]

Why doesn't there seem to be a version of a so-called space saving keyboard that instead of eliminating the numpad, it eliminates the discreet home, etc. and arrow keys? I mean, that would give you almost the same amount of space, but at the same time you would have 100% functionality. All I have to do to get to any of those other keys is turn off the num lock.

[heedpantsnow]

You are right, but people are used to using dedicated arrow/navigation keys much more than numpad keys.  And folks don't use numpad all that often.

[TickleMeElmo]

Because home, insert, del etc are all useful keys, if you are proficient with a keyboard you can access all the functions of the number row without having to look at it and at a higher speed than with a tenkey (assuming you aren't exclusively doing numeric data entry). And if you are indeed doing exclusive numeric data entry you can get a separate num pad but a separate "insert correct term" pad would be quite silly.

[n12]

Choc mini? HHKB? Poker?

[What is X?]

Look at the notice above you. The poker is exactly what you describe.

[NimbleRabit]

Look at the notice above you. The poker is exactly what you describe.

I think he was asking why not get rid of those other keys but still keep the numpad, doesn't the poker get rid of both?

[Kacee]

Because home, insert, del etc are all useful keys, if you are proficient with a keyboard you can access all the functions of the number row without having to look at it and at a higher speed than with a tenkey (assuming you aren't exclusively doing numeric data entry). And if you are indeed doing exclusive numeric data entry you can get a separate num pad but a separate "insert correct term" pad would be quite silly.

I never use the Insert key, what do you use it for?

[gilgam]

Insert key. Also INS. A key usually positioned in a block of 6 keys above the cursor keys on most keyboards. Behaviour varies from one operating system and application to another. In traditional terminal environments the INS key would switch an editor to text insert mode, where typed text would be inserted rather than overwritten. Macs have a help or fn key instead of an INS key.

from
http://photonotes.org/articles/keyboards/

Mostly useless
but as a Vim user it is the same than typing i and the other keys work fine in vim too.

[BucklingSpring]

Ultimate Space Saver

Sorry for the repost.

[flyinout]

this close to your require

[itlnstln]

The G80-1800 is a pretty cool 'board, but for someone that uses the page-nav cluster a lot, I find the layout to be a little annoying at times.  That, and pressing the 0 key on the numpad takes a little getting used to.  I press that key with my index finger typically, so it took a little time to get used to pressing it with my middle finger.

[Daniel Beaver]

The Model F also fits this criterion, though it has other layout quirks.

[pitashen]

I very often use arrow keys, pgdn, pgup, home, end, etc... I have almost no use for numpad. So eliminating those would mean cutting out big chunk of keyboard functionality for me... and I believe for the most of the comp users out there.

[theferenc]

You are all missing the point. The navigation cluster is entirely replicated as a separate layer on the number pad. Turn numlock on, you get digits. Turn it off, you get navigation keys. You lose nothing. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Unless tenkeyless boards, where you do actually lose functionality, which requires yet another peripheral to replicate.

I'm actually working on doing exactly this to one of my Model M keyboards. I'm pretty sure there's enough room to roll and store the middle portion of the membrane, and then I would just have to cut and reattach the barrel plate appropriately, and trim off the end of the metal plate. I think it would be easier to drill new rivet holes in the plate than to weld two pieces of it back together, personally.

[Findecanor]

Unfortunately, programs don't usually detect Shift - KB_arrow as the same as Shift - arrow.
In those programs (the bulk of them, I'm afraid), you can not use the numpad to select text. You will have to somehow remap the numpad keys to make them work the same way as arrow/nav keys when NumLock is off.

[alaricljs]

I just tested my 2 primary editors (vim and oowriter) and they function as expected.  

With numlock OFF, shift and KP_2 merely gives me a down-arrow as expected.  Then there's the unexpected twist:  BOTH shifts and KP_2 give me same result as shift down arrow, selecting the text being traversed.

Firefox works... Thunderbid works... notepad works...

So can you share what bulk of programs you're using that this doesn't work on?

[theferenc]

Oddly, in Windows 7 via a synergy kvm from a linux machine, with numlock *ON*, shift + kp_8 selects text upwards, while it gives me just an "8" with numlock *OFF*.

In linux, on the machine to which it is directly attached, it works as Findecanor describes. That said, I use emacs mode in linux, so for most of my programs, shift + arrows doesn't do anything anyway. Shift+space turns on selection mode, then only arrow keys are needed.

But in Windows, at least, it works exactly the same as the regular arrow keys, just reverse of the numlock status as you would expect.

[alaricljs]

Didn't think to try it on Linux, most of my work there is split between email and shell, very little cause for text selection.  You could try to count the ticket tracker we use, but that doesn't conform to anything including its own design documents.

I've been contemplating a navless tenkeyless.  Basically a tenkeyless with the nav cluster also removed.  I tried the noppoo and found out I'm not willing to give up key size on the modifiers and don't want to give up function key grouping/spacing either.  It'd be even better with a trackpoint, but I don't know if I'll even be able to manage making a 74key board.  All the missing keys would be on layers...

[False_Dmitry_II]

When you finish with that keyboard mod be sure to show it to us.

But yeah, that was my point. That you already have that set of stuff on the numpad so why not just keep it. In fact if a manufacturer made their board that way they could label the keys, and perhaps even reposition them slightly to make it more like the discrete keys. (in layout and signal to the computer)

[Ekaros]

Thermaltake Meka?

Still, big-ass enter and other quirks in that layout...

[alaricljs]

When you finish with that keyboard mod be sure to show it to us.

But yeah, that was my point. That you already have that set of stuff on the numpad so why not just keep it. In fact if a manufacturer made their board that way they could label the keys, and perhaps even reposition them slightly to make it more like the discrete keys. (in layout and signal to the computer)

You could move (or even duplicate) down arrow to the 5 key, then you have the inverted T.

[celery]

If you're talking about pure functionality, you aren't losing anything with standard tenkeyless keyboards either, except for the Num Lock key itself, so it comes down to which set of keys you use more often. Though when I want to use the numpad, I miss it a lot, the arrow keys and navigation cluster see far more action in normal usage.

(Yeah, there's scancode differences with the numpad equivalents that can cause issues in obscure cases. Can't say if it works out for or against the numpad.)

That being said, there are examples of what the OP suggested as above. One I haven't seen mentioned yet is the Razer Marauder, which also has a toggle for inverted-T arrow keys.

[rustybarnacle]

Inverted T as God and DEC intended!

Heh, DEC.  Remember the alpha processor?!

[theferenc]

Someone has mentioned previously that you can't use alt codes for special characters from character map without a number pad. Not sure how often that is used (I use LaTeX, so don't need character map), but you do lose that ability if you have a tenkeyless keyboard.

So yes, you do actually lose distinct functionality.

[alaricljs]

Heh, DEC.  Remember the alpha processor?!

OSF 1... god that sucked.

[alaricljs]

Someone has mentioned previously that you can't use alt codes for special characters from character map without a number pad. Not sure how often that is used (I use LaTeX, so don't need character map), but you do lose that ability if you have a tenkeyless keyboard.

So yes, you do actually lose distinct functionality.

Well, not if you are willing to deal with Fn layers.  Compact KBs do it, why not tenkeyless?

[False_Dmitry_II]

@theferenc

Did you proceed with doing this to your model M?

[dorkvader]

Why doesn't there seem to be a version of a so-called space saving keyboard that instead of eliminating the numpad, it eliminates the discreet home, etc. and arrow keys? I mean, that would give you almost the same amount of space, but at the same time you would have 100% functionality. All I have to do to get to any of those other keys is turn off the num lock.

Phantom?

I know the 7bit one has space for the full area to be filled up (I'm putting a tenkey there for sure) and I think the plates for the other phantom's have space for the keyswitches.

It's a pretty awesome layout, anyway.