What's really 'the best' / some general questions

[daniel.ocarroll]

Hi (again),

Since I posted my last thread (I'm a mech keyboard newbie from Ireland with very little idea of what's going on), I was lucky enough to find an elusive IBM Model M2 in my family's businses, spent two hours cleaning restoring it, one joyful hour using it, and then, presumably because of water damage (which I can't understand, because I was careful to dry the keys before putting them back on), it broke..

That very short time period was my introduction to mechanical keyboards and it was absolutely incredible. Something very close to the satisfaction of using an old-style typewriter, fantastic for building speed, and a certainty that you just can't get with rubber domes.

Now I want a good mechanical even more! I already know what I want -- something with a 'light touch' (I type 90-100WPM typist, and want something very easy to maintain speed one) -- and I've been advised that what I need is a Brown MX switch based model, but I'm becoming slightly confused by the various people (on Geekhack and other websites) all recommending different keyboards!

Firstly there's the Model M brigade, other says that Filco are the best keyboards (for typing) if you can afford them, the Das Keyboard also looks good, others then say that I should be looking for something with Topre or Alt switches, and then there's even a recommendation for the Happy Hacker!

I'm a student, so my budget is limited, but I'm going to be studying journalism at Columbia next year, so besides the large amount of typing I'll be doing (I also run a news website), I want something that I can bring with me and use for years to come. Once you have a keyboard that does the job, and does it well, you can move on to worrying about more important things!

I'm sorry to post a second thread (first one I was asking about which one to get for a 'light touch'), but as I'm sure some of you can appreciate the world of mechanical keyboards can be a little confusing for somebody fresh out of using mere rubber domes, although the more I find out about them, the more I'm fascinated, and I'm convinced that a good mech. keyboard is an essential to anyone hoping to get the most out of their computer.

So to summarize my long, rambling, post: I'm looking for something with a light touch (MX Brown? Torpe?), nice tactile feedback, clicking / silent is irrelevant, I'm a poor student (therefore price-sensitive), and (currently) live in Ireland.

Thanks guys. I'm posting again because people were so helpful in the last thread!

[Brummell]

Poor students can probably eliminate Topre from their prospect lists.  

In general, "light touch" usually means either reds or browns.

[n12]

I would go with browns if you only want ONE keyboard for everything and don't feel like dropping ~$300 on a Topre board.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Thanks. I read somewhere earlier that a certain airline used Torpre switches for the computers at its check-in counters (maybe that was here), such was their reliability. I figured then they were probably going to run into the hundreds.

TBH I'm not worried about not buying the most expensive keyboard there is (obviously, I mean a can't!), but as long as I can get something decent that will last me until I next have a bit of cash together and can go for something really fancy, I'll be happy!

[daniel.ocarroll]

Wow, quick answering!
Also meant to add that it seemed - from the earlier thread - as if reds would be the absolute optimum switch to go for, but that browns were more common (and therefore less expensive).
So basically the advice is to just look at the boards with Brown MX switches and whittle it down from there based on budget, shipping etc?

[Brummell]

I'd say that's accurate.  Browns are generally easier to come by, almost always less expensive and a pretty good choice all around.  

Topre is awesome and solid as a rock, but spendy.

[canon.tk]

I'd go with browns.  

I've used them all, save for clears, and reds have the lightest touch but I'm having a really hard time getting used to them when typing.  I'd rather type on blacks than reds.  Browns have a good feel and are nice to type on and so are blues but they are a poor choice for an all around switch.

If you bottom out the keys every stroke then reds might be ok.

[daniel.ocarroll]

THanks. One more thing. I was on a great thread on Geekhack earlier that had pictures and  brief list of the most common keyboards with pros and cons for each one? It was short and to the point but I can't seem to find it. I've been looking in the Wiki but to no avail!

[pm_]

If you were using IBM buckling spring and liked it, then I'd probably recommend either another buckling spring or a keyboard with Cherry Blue switches. The cherries are lighter than the buckling springs, but still have the clickiness.

If you decide to go with either Cherry Browns or Blues, look at Leopold, Filco, or the Rosewill RK-9000.  If you want Tenkeyless, then it's either Filco or Leopold, with the Leopold running about $30 less.  

I do find the stabilizer for the Leopold with Browns a little annoying.  A few others have reported a similar issue, where the spacebar seems a little looser and noisy if you depress it to the right of center.  I'll probably have to try modifying the right side of the stabilizer at some point to resolve it. I think Filco uses the same stabilizers, but don't know if they have the same issue, or if this issue affects all the Leopolds. I'm very picky and critical in general though.

[n12]

Wow, quick answering!
Also meant to add that it seemed - from the earlier thread - as if reds would be the absolute optimum switch to go for, but that browns were more common (and therefore less expensive).

You said that you wanted tactile feedback - red's do not have that.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Thanks, PM!

I loved the mechanical nature of the keyboard rather than the springs I think (if that makes sense). It was so solid, made such a great noise typing on it, everything was so certain, my typing was great (and almost error free), but the one thing I didn't like was that I found the keys a little unresponsive (ie hard to actuate), which I think has to do with the buckling spring mechanism.

So I think that an MX Brown probably is actually the one to go for as that would have a lot less resistance  - from what I understand - than the IBM buckling spring.

There's also the added benefit that, although I like the click, I can bring / use the keyboard in places where the noisier switches would drive people mad, although I'll loose out on the nice sound!

[digitalleftovers]

If the tactile feedback is important to you, then brown is the best option.  Note, however, that comming from another type of keyboard, they take a while to get used to.  Many people (including myself) report that it is difficult to feel the tactile bump at all for several days after you start using them.

While we are on the topic of inexpensive, tactile switches, Fukkas may also be an option (because they are cheap).  They are tactile and clicky, but have an actuation for of 65g (according to the key wiki).  That's much heavier than a brown.  I've never tried the Fukkas, but others here have strong opinions about them.  I will let them speak for themselves.

[Chobopants]

If raw typing pleasure is your goal I can't help but recommend blues, especially since you loved the M so much. They're not quite as soft as the browns but I barely have to push down harder than my natural finger weight to trigger them. Browns are even smoother but don't give you nearly as satisfying a "click" when you trigger them.

Both are amazing switches and you can't go wrong with either one.

The red will be slightly lighter than the brown but provides no tactile response whatsoever, it is 100% linear.

So, if maximum lightness is by FAR your number one priorty then get brown.
If a SLIGHTLY stiffer switch is ok I'd go for blue, the tactile click feel is just too fun.

Topre is overpriced in all regards. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who doesn't have an extreme excess of cash and just wants to try something for fun.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Hi guys,

It's a real pity that mechanicals aren't more commonplace, and the major PC retailers don't stock them.

The entire extent of my experience using mechanicals was playing with the Model M for an hour this morning, so I know I must seem a bit slow, but it's really hard to visualize the feeling of all these different switches when I've never actually tried them, and only have my experience with rubber domes to judge against! If they were stocked in PC retailers and people actually paid proper attention to what they were typing on everyone who wanted to know would be able to tell the difference between the felling of the various switches. Perhaps a business idea in the making!

But from what I think I understand, it's a toss-up between a blue and brown switch.

I think I'll probably go for the latter, as not having a nice click wouldn't be the end of the world, but having keys that are stiff and unresponsive would, but I can always start with a brown, and if I feel I can handle more resistance, add a blue MX on my wishlist for the next purchase.
Thanks to everyone for all the help.

[Chobopants]

Sounds good man! You'll be super happy with your choice. Both switches are awesome, I use them both every day (blue at work, brown at home).

[daniel.ocarroll]

Excellent. I think I'm just going to go with the Filco brown switch fullsize model. That will get me started and if I want to go in the slighter lighter / heavier direction that can be my next purchase.

Anyone have any idea where that comparison article with the pros and cons of the most common boards is? Would love to print it out.

[daniel.ocarroll]

found what I was looking for.

This article gives a great roundup of the most common models:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:6456

[Chobopants]

It looks like a lot of data in that is out of date actually so don't take it verbatim. It's also very subjective. I disagree that browns are subideal for gaming, I actually bought brown SPECIFICALLY for gaming.

[.XL]

I've been typing the Browns for a month, and I still bottom out almost every keystroke. It depends how hard you type, really. The browns are quite nice, but don't expect to be able to use the keyboard to it's full effect for a while. Learning not to bottom out will take a while!

[n12]

It looks like a lot of data in that is out of date actually so don't take it verbatim. It's also very subjective. I disagree that browns are subideal for gaming, I actually bought brown SPECIFICALLY for gaming.

Yeah, browns are great for gaming.

[BucklingSpring]

Are you afraid of the dark?

This member is getting rid of a Tactile Deck Legend (arguably best backlit boards on the market)

According to the seller, almost new. http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=320577&postcount=1

Tactile Legend come with MX Clear switches. They're non-clicky and a bit stiffer than the Blue. I own one of those and used it a lot. I was not disappointed.

[Ascaii]

your board might not be beyond repair, if the symptoms match this:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5065

Directions on how to repair it included.

Also, I have 8 used model M2 boards, a Model M, and a dozen cherry boards with german layout laying around here I'd be willing to part with if you are looking for a cheaper alternative. Refer to my thread in the classifieds or hit me with a pm.

[canon.tk]

Blues might have a bit more of a weight listed than browns but they aren't much harder to press.  I type on blues all day at work and I'm trying on a brown right now, and on a user level I'd say very few people would be able to feel the difference in the springs.

The big difference comes in with the tactile feeling.  Blue have more of a snap to them and browns have more of a bump or nudge.

Still recommend browns.  The more I type on blues and get used to the feed back, my first Flico had blacks, the more and more I like the tactile feel, but IMO blacks are still best for gaming.  

I'm not sure where reds belong.  Some one that wants a light touch and will always bottom the keys out?  Probably.

[Lanx]

this image is in the wiki, and really everyone should see it, it plainly gives a very nice matrix/rubic


(didn't know how to link this section of the wiki so just reupped the image)

[DrunkenDonut]

Not to derail this topic (it has come to good conclusions already) ..

Someone needs to add red and clear cherries to that diagram

And I could swear the blacks are quieter than the browns (at least when I type). Not only do they lack the bump, they also hold the key caps tighter/stiffer, so they don't make quite as much noise when "brushing" along the key tops. Less slop = less noise.

I guess it's a close enough call though. IIRC, my noisiest keyboard (aside from M) is the ABS M1.

[keyboardlover]

Someone needs to add red and clear cherries to that diagram

Done:

[daniel.ocarroll]

Guys,

I hate having to keep making fawning comments like this, but this forum in truly fantastic.

At least where I'm from (Ireland) most internet forums seem to be the preserve of people with major axes to grind. Aggro is rampant, etc, but it's nice to see that people here seem to be just genuinely interested in helping each out and learning together more about mechanical keyboards!!!!

I'm still in two minds about the blue / browns, especially after that last post. If there isn't much, even negligible difference in the weights (I know, wrong term!), then I wouldn't mind a bit of satisfying tactile feedback.

M2 guy. I will hit you back with a PM once I've got a bit of work done here. It was really great, if just a little stiff, but it would be really nice to have a few mechanicals as a budding collection, and the Model M, in all its varieties, does seem to be the gold standard after all these years. Actually, in case it's tomorrow before I get back to you, just PM me an estimation of how much shipping to Ireland would be on one of those, please.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Ascaii,
Thanks a million for the link to the Model M2 repair article, but that seems way out of my league (I'm a law student, no skill whatsoever in electronics!), but I do have a friend who's studying electrical engineering and there's a very slim chance that if I print off those instructions he'll be able to help, so I'm printing them now!

[bhtooefr]

Daniel:

If you can find a Razer BlackWidow in a store, try one of those.

That board uses Cherry Blues, and is the most likely to be found in a store.

[gregh]

I see that you've already made your decision, however, I'll offer my input.

I have tried a lot of switches. Cherry Reds, Blacks, Blues. Buckling Springs, variable Topre and all 55g Topre.

I believe the buckling springs are the best to type on, if you're used to bottoming out and you don't care about the noise. I do NOT like these for gaming though, they'll wear out your finger and drive you crazy with the clicking of repeatedly pressing a button over and over.

Topres are a close second for typing, and work great for gaming too. But they're expensive as hell.

Cherry Reds are good for gaming, but they're too light for me when it comes to typing. Cherry Blacks are too stiff for me, however, the board I had was very slippery with the key tops which made it worse. Cherry Blues weren't as good as buckling springs for me. I have not tried cherry browns, they might be wonderful for all I know.

[HaveANiceDay]

Steelseries 6gv2 (Blacks)
Zowie Celeritas (Browns)
Razer Black Widow (Blues)

Those three should be reasonably easy to find (the Celeritas maybe not that easy as the other two). Try them.

If not, browns are the safe bet, it's hard to dislike them.

[AcidSouL]

Hey everyone...i have  problem with the choice too black widow or g6v2...i really want cherry brown but its to expencive and not evablable in my country or near i play SC2 too...but the problem is i play a lots of diferent gender of games i play FPS like crysis2 now...i wait battlefield 3 soon... i play some racing games...play RPG, and MMORPG a lot...too how i said its not posible to get brown... and now what u recomend me for all gendre playing? blue or black...
Regards Alex.

[RiGS]

Blacks. MX blues are useless for general gaming...

[BucklingSpring]

Blacks. MX blues are useless for general gaming...

Do you run some sort of MX blue driver to sense gaming and deactivate your keyboard when you play games?

That must be why Razer selected MX blue for the Black Widow. A keyboard clearly aimed at the professional typists. :biggrin:

[RiGS]

Have you ever played a game that requires good finger coordination?

[vun]

Have you ever played a computer game?

I have, and for me I have no problem playing with blues. I like them better than browns except for FPS games, then I often find browns to be better, but playing FPS games with blues isn't really an issue.
For RTS I find them fantastic and they're perfectly viable if you plan on going pro because several SC2 pros play with blues.

[.XL]

I'm going to back up RiGS on this...the blues are okay for rts (the sound is nic for SC2) but for other games I've found I don't really like the blues. I'd say if your primary need was gaming grab blacks or reds, if your primary purpose is typing or rts blues will be fine.

I think Razer chose the blues because they're the most distinctive mech switch. Ive had people try my brown and say they feel like it's just an old keyboard, but when they try my brothers blue they love it. The blues differentiate the keyboard the most.

[AcidSouL]

btw i really dont like all click think in blues...i prefer quite but how i said brown is not posible to take right now... but if i get black...i am little afraid if i play more hours without stop...if my fingers go to hurt???

[.XL]

btw i really dont like all click think in blues...i prefer quite but how i said brown is not posible to take right now... but if i get black...i am little afraid if i play more hours without stop...if my fingers go to hurt???

Where do you live? Browns are typically the easiest switch to find after blues

[vun]

I'd say blacks are some of the easiest to find; the Steelseries 6 and 7G are all over the place, easier to find than Blackwidow in my experience.

[RiGS]

Do you run some sort of MX blue driver to sense gaming and deactivate your keyboard when you play games?

That must be why Razer selected MX blue for the Black Widow. A keyboard clearly aimed at the professional typists. :biggrin:

I just had a little fun with my Topre. This is far from my best.
Mx Blacks FTW.

TBH I doubt that you can be proficient with mx blues at games that require good finger coordination.

Just prove me wrong!
http://www.addictinggames.com/theworldshardestgame.html

[AcidSouL]

I live in Bulgaria do u know where is it? its east europe...next to greece and turkey... here i can find any popular hardware u want...but not the thing that no  popular... like this brown keyboards... and the problem is asian countys dont ship to my country i think...:Cry:
if someone can tell me from where can i buy the cheapest brown one...from some onlite site...that ship to my country..

[Chobopants]

Blacks. MX blues are useless for general gaming...

You claim that blues are "bad" for gaming is starting to border on obnoxious. While I do think my browns and Topres are better, playing RTSs on my blues is quite satisfying and I have no problems with it. In fact, if I were going to a SC2 tourney I'd think about bringing my Leo over my Filco.

While you can't ride the actuation point on a blue, you can do anything else. Hell, I grew up playing competitive FPSs (primarily Quake 2 and 3) with my old M because that's all we had!

[RiGS]

You claim that blues are "bad" for gaming is starting to border on obnoxious. While I do think my browns and Topres are better, playing RTSs on my blues is quite satisfying and I have no problems with it. In fact, if I were going to a SC2 tourney I'd think about bringing my Leo over my Filco.

While you can't ride the actuation point on a blue, you can do anything else. Hell, I grew up playing competitive FPSs (primarily Quake 2 and 3) with my old M because that's all we had!

Starcraft is more like typing, that's the reason why mx blues are fine for that, but for anything else they are inferior to mx blacks.

Just prove me wrong!
http://www.addictinggames.com/theworldshardestgame.html

[BucklingSpring]

Starcraft is more like typing, that's the reason why mx blues are fine for that, but for anything else they are inferior to mx blacks.

Just prove me wrong!

I can't because I have no right to argue with your personal taste.
But there is a huge difference between saying you prefer Black over Blue for gaming VS a bold statement claiming that Blue are "useless" for gaming (end of discussion).

Too many different hands, fingers and habits. Think of it as blood types. Not everybody have the same. What is right for you can be wrong for someone else. But as an expert, you can educate and show the differences, then let people the choice to make an educated decision.

[keyboardlover]

No, you're wrong. RiGS is the definitive expert on everything. Just give in. Resistance is futile.

(This is the half Russian side of him.)

[RiGS]

It is not only about my personal taste, but also it is more about the proper actuation timing and control over it.

[BucklingSpring]

No, you're wrong. RiGS is the definitive expert on everything. Just give in. Resistance is futile.

Two words for you guys: Switch Nazi

[.XL]

It is not only about my personal taste, but also it is more about the proper actuation timing and control over it.

I think if were talking about pro level yes, riding the actuation point is extremely necessary and blacks are the best. Anything before that and I think it's more up to preference.

@acid: what city? I am from Greece, but live in USA. I have friends from Plovdiv, I can ask them if they are going to Bulgaria anytime soon to bring you a keyboard. But I think your best bet is to order directly from China/Taiwan. You could try the Keyboard Co out of Britain but the shipping will still be high.

[BucklingSpring]

It is not only about my personal taste, but also it is more about the proper actuation timing and control over it.

I rest my case.