the audiophile effect (?)

[The Solutor]

And this is not the case of other switching types?

No because a mechanical switch has more than a century of history on its shoulders, is a well known and widespread technology, and most of its initial problems were resolved many years ago.


This not mean that a mechanical switch is problem free, but that the problems are well known, and you can choose a mechanical switch that fit the needs of every application with a predictable durability and behavior, no matter if we are speaking of a nuclear power plant or a 9$ cellphone.

And what changed to make the Topre a rip off?

Likely they improved the electronics, and the dome structure, and they choosed to not sell their patents (or asked to much to sell it).

I'm just guessing, here.

But until some one will give some reason I missed this remain the best approximation of the truth.

What are your sources for the production costs of Topre keyboards? I'm genuinely fascinated now.

I spent 15 of years of my life as electronic technician, most of them in some industrial plants, so I have a very clear vision of the steps needed to build something, and I have also a good vision of what can be built in an automated way and what requires the human workmanship.

BTW, try to completely dismantle a cherry keyboard (i mean completely) and a topre one, and then remount them, then tell me how much time you spent for both the operations.

[ch_123]

What's a mechanical switch?

[panda-R]

Indeed It's a rubber dome keyboard, the different feeling is due mainly to the shape of the dome an the added spring.

Surely not because it has a capacitive switch.

Put a topre dome+spring on top of a membrane and you will get almost the same feeling.

you lost me at "Hey panda you're a hottie."

[suntorytime]

But until some one will give some reason I missed this remain the best approximation of the truth.

No your approximation of the truth is your own subjective viewpoint in saying that the consumer's price should be relative to the production costs.

Different strokes for different folks. Different switches for different riches.

[ch_123]

Likely they improved the electronics, and the dome structure, and they choosed to not sell their patents (or asked to much to sell it).

I'm just guessing, here.

But until some one will give some reason I missed this remain the best approximation of the truth.

So, you acknowledge that capacitive keyboards were expensive to make. Then you claim that Topres are cheaper. You base this claim on the idea that you 'guess' they are cheaper to make. I smell some circular logic here.

BTW, try to completely dismantle a cherry keyboard (i mean completely) and a topre one, and then remount them, then tell me how much time you spent for both the operations.

And this proves what?

[The Solutor]

What's a mechanical switch?

Is something that physically closes opens and closes an electric circuit accordingly to a mechanical force applied on it.

This is the my own definition, but I don't think that an "official" definition will be too far.

[ch_123]

So you claim that a microswitch that uses ohmic switching is not subject to ill effects caused by things such as humidity or temperature?

[The Solutor]

So, you acknowledge that capacitive keyboards were expensive to make.

You was speaking about the oldest IBM one, yes the possible were more expensive AT THE TIME, and IN THE WAY the IBM where built, that is a way completely different than the topre's one

Then you claim that Topres are cheaper.

I claim that in a topre there is nothing of expensive, other than the mechanical tolerances and the plastics quality.

And there's nothing in the assembly process that can justify the higher price.

Thats's all

I'm not criticizing who bought one of them (I'm the first who spend stupid amounts of money when I like something, no matter if that amount is justified), I'm just saying that the quality of a board, is often unrelated with its price, and the topres are just an handy example, you can find zillions of other examples in every market.

[Lanx]

I think it's the simple reason that if you charge a high price for an item, that gives back no measurable value other than you paid more for it, it MAKES the purchaser "feel" better.

This is done in many areas, for instance when Gray Poupon tried to break into the mustard market, French's had a super hold on the market. So they decided, lets put it in a glass jar, jack the price up 10x and say that it's for rich ppl. So Grey Poupon took half the market.

Grey Goose Vodka was not selling well, so some rich guy bought out the brand, now he wanted to try to do something, after years of failed marketing campaign, he decided, i'll just double the price. Sales soured, ppl now believed that since the price was so high, they were paying for a quality product.

Same thing is true for Apple computers.

[The Solutor]

So you claim that a microswitch that uses ohmic switching is not subject to ill effects caused by things such as humidity or temperature?

All on this world is subject to the external conditions, what is different is how predictable the variation is.

A dielectric material can absorb the humidity an change its behavior in a way that is difficult to schematize and to compensate, sometimes that variations can be irreversible.

Every technology faces problems on the early design but the early designs of the mechanical switches comes from the 1800 era

[The Solutor]

I think it's the simple reason that if you charge a high price for an item, that gives back no measurable value other than you paid more for it, it MAKES the purchaser "feel" better.

This is done in many areas, for instance when Gray Poupon tried to break into the mustard market, French's had a super hold on the market. So they decided, lets put it in a glass jar, jack the price up 10x and say that it's for rich ppl. So Grey Poupon took half the market.

Grey Goose Vodka was not selling well, so some rich guy bought out the brand, now he wanted to try to do something, after years of failed marketing campaign, he decided, i'll just double the price. Sales soured, ppl now believed that since the price was so high, they were paying for a quality product.

Same thing is true for Apple computers.

Exactly

[JohnehJH]

When it comes to feeling, different people have different tastes. There's no way to justify buying a mechanical board, especially not $300, except for that you personally like it. So yeah, I guess there is an audiophile effect. Some people may like the feel of rubber domes. I work at Radioshack, and I spend a lot of time in the parts drawer messing with the switches inside of their bags. I like how they feel. I like the bump and click on a Blue MX keyboard.

Some people may like rubbers, I personally don't see the use. ;]

[HaveANiceDay]

I own a Topre board. The materials do not justify the cost, nor does the actual switch which is not much more than a rubber dome with a spring.
Still, I am very happy with the keyboard. I don't see why you guys argue against The Solutor, the Topre boards are overpriced but so is everything else in the world that makes profit. The question is how much overpriced is it, and can I accept that?

Carry on.

[K5Doom]

So you claim that a microswitch that uses ohmic switching is not subject to ill effects caused by things such as humidity or temperature?

He never said that.

What you fail to understand in his arguments is that Mechanical switches have a more predictable behavior than Capacitive switches.

And yeah, humidity and temperature both affects the capacitance of a dielectric material.

I would much rather put a mechanical switch in a safety device rather than a capacitive switch. Important stuff need to have predictable devices.

This is the same reason why FPGAs are preferred over CPUs in important/safety devices.

[ch_123]

He never said that.

Yes he did.

People building mission critical stuff use Hall Effect switches. Switches that involve bits of metal bumping off eachother have far too many problems to be really dependable.

I never claimed that capacitive keyboards are problem-free, merely that the reliability issues that are raised are just as applicable to ohmic contact switching.

You was speaking about the oldest IBM one, yes the possible were more expensive AT THE TIME, and IN THE WAY the IBM where built, that is a way completely different than the topre's one

There were people who built capacitive keyboards other than IBM, Keytronic and BTC are the ones that immediately come to mind.

The reason why the IBM example is noteworthy was because they produced what was effectively the same keyboards with only the contact mechanism differing, and the membrane one was dramatically cheaper to produce.

[The Solutor]

People building mission critical stuff use Hall Effect switches. Switches that involve bits of metal bumping off eachother have far too many problems to be really dependable.

Most of security devices are built around a NC mechanical switch (because you can easily spot a not working one, and a not working one doesn't affect the security).

All switches based on a combination of a sensor + some electronics, like the capacitive or the hall effect ones, are well suited to the operations where the mechanical wearing is a problem.

An hall effect switch can malfunction in any moment as any other electronic component and you are not sure if if the result of the malfunction will be an open or a closed circuit.

[strum4h]

Well you get what you pay for most of the time. I bought a filco with browns and I never want to go back to any rubber dome keyboards ever again.

[woody]

I claim that in a topre there is nothing of expensive, other than the mechanical tolerances and the plastics quality.

And perhaps the believed QA testing of every key. But that's it.

The capacitive sensing doesn't cost that much - just a good enough PCB material and fab, and IC or two that cost peanuts compared to the price the end product is sold at.

I own a Topre board. The materials do not justify the cost, nor does the actual switch which is not much more than a rubber dome with a spring.
Still, I am very happy with the keyboard.

That's a happy end. I really wonder if the Topre based keyboards were priced differently (say, close to the $100 mark) what the following would have been?

My personal biased judging from monitoring this forum is that Topre keyboards are heavily placebo/audiophile-effect ridden. My other even more biased opinion is they still feel like rubber domes, but the activation point (thanks to capacitive sensing) makes them at least tolerable.

[woody]

I think it's the DIP switches that make them so expensive.

Dang, how could I forget this one.

[The Solutor]

i think it's the dip switches that make them so expensive.

rotfl

[HaveANiceDay]

Individually testing every Topre key is PR-BS until proven otherwise.
It makes no sense to test such a simple mechanism where nothing could possibly go wrong.

[HaveANiceDay]

I saw you fail with the IMG tags!

[The Solutor]

That's what Nuclear Reactor designers say.

Meanwhile in Japan.

Look at the positive effects, probably we will have a keyboard with a switch that no other one uses, which is also glowing w/o the need of any kind of lamp behind the keys...

[.XL]

I wanted to buy a BMW 7 series but decided against it because the 5 series uses most of the same materials. Because it uses most of the same materials, it must not be worth it.

Is that statement true? For some people. For some people a small increase in quality reliability and feel is worth the extra $100. For others it's not. Are the Topre's built to a better quality than cherry based bords? Yes. Is the feeling better? Depends on the person. You can't tell RiGS he's wrong to like blacks, and I can't tell anyone blues suck and they're not allowed to like them.

What's the case here is that all of us enjoy quality keyboards and we like trying out new keyboards to see what they're like. We can afford it, so we try. Each and every one of us will be the judge of whether the Realforces and Filcos of the world are worth their price. People who love rubber domes can say you spending so much on a keyboard is silly to them, and the never would. That's fine. To them no mech keyboard is worth it. Are you going to go and argue with them about the building processes and the technical aspects of each switch, and decide which keyboard has a higher true value?

Yes, you probably would. But they won't give a ****. Some people like rubber domes, others like cherries, some like alps, many like BS, and there's a handful that love their Topre's. Honestly I think Filcos are overpriced but I'll still pay the price for them. The only mech keyboards near worth what you pay for them are the direct from manufacturer Noppoo Choc Minis at $75-$80 each...they even have POM keys compared to the crappy Filco keys.

I might order a RF or HHKB or maybe another Filco...will the price be a point of concern for me? Yes. But the feel will be even more important, and if I have to pay an extra $100 to get my ideal typing feel I will.

[.XL]

I like Filco keys better than those crappy AND pooey looking Noppoo keys.

But this part was funny.

If the lettering was a different color and I didn't own a Mac I'd be all over the Noppoos.

[.XL]

So you really didn't like the Noppoo keys better than Filco keys.

Just trying to keep track here.

I didn't buy one for the aforementioned reasons...though one member of the group buy is very graciously allowing me to mess around on his for a little to compare with my Filco.

[Chobopants]

While Filco keys get shiny and slick after a while, right out of the box they look and feel quite nice. Not on a Realforce level but it's definitely something that you can impress people with.

While it's silly, I've given myself a goal of getting the entire engineering, QA, and IT departments in my studio on good boards. Already convinced a handful by just letting them type on mine or hearing me code all day.

[.XL]

While Filco keys get shiny and slick after a while, right out of the box they look and feel quite nice. Not on a Realforce level but it's definitely something that you can impress people with.

True..and the white keyboards have the best caps. They feel much nicer than the black filco's caps. They're the same material so I guess it's just the way the lettering was done.