Advice? Small tactile programming/admin keyboard. G84-4100?

[Krymzon]

Hello. I'm new here (and to the cult of mechanical keyboards in general). I am looking for a quite small (no numpad, at least) keyboard for programming (vim, mostly) and CLI work, general typing (~70wpm) and perhaps some occasional (Starcraft2) gaming. I think in terms of switches I prefer tactile and quiet, but I don't really have experience with mechanical keyboards yet. I'm mostly using a (Dell) rubber dome one, and I prefer the feel of my laptop's one, which is quite stiff for a short moment at the beginning of movent.

I think I really like the HHKB layout, though I'm wondering how it works in conjuction with mouse, when not typing. Unfortunately, it seems pretty tricky to get it in the UK/Europe. Also, I would like to be sure about it before spending that much on a Pro2 (or perhaps the japanese layout, hmm...), as I understand Lite2 is not worth bothering.

I'm considering mostly G84-4100 and a Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless with brown switches. However, the Filco is over half the price of HHKB, which seems too much for a 'non-final' (in ~4-year timespan) solution.

The G84-4100 is available in the UK for about £48 ($80), which, while way cheaper than the Filco, seems much more than people around here have paid. I guess the $10-30 prices were only for used ones, weren't they? It seems some people say its key stiffness is linear, while most claim it's similar to MX Brown, but stiffer. Are there various versions? Aren't they all supposed to have the same ML switches?

I'm happy with the US layout, I'd just remap some stuff, mostly along the lines of HHKB. Does anyone know if the Fn key on G84-4100 generates a scancode?  Some keyboards do...

I'm concerned about the small RShift, Backspace and Enter on the G84. It has quite some keys I could live without (HHKB), but I guess remapping adjacent keys to the ones I listed above isn't much of a solution.

I'll be happy to hear any thoughts you have on this general search :)

[n12]

Noppoo choc mini's are nice as well, for a good price (~$100).

[Reaif]

I personally don't like the ML switches that come with the G84-4100 cause they stick on mine if I press them even slightly off center, so if I were you I would go for an MX board such as the Noppoo or the Poker. I would choose the Poker first though because it seems to have better quality than the Choc.

I have a Leopold with blues and I loves it a lot. It is nice and small and it works like a dream. Also, no funny layouts to get used to like lots of smaller keyboards.

[n12]

I would choose the Poker first though because it seems to have better quality than the Choc.

I would say that the consensus on better quality between the two is still pretty much undecided.(I have a Noppoo and it's PERFECT.)

Anyways, the Poker is also much easier to come by at the moment because you can still get one with blacks or browns from the group buy. Although, who knows when they will ship!

[Ascaii]

ill second the voices opinion on the g84...they are going to frustrate you to hell gaming and coding. Ive found that they stick a lot when im typing, since i tend to not hit the keys perfectly in the center.
Youre way better off looking for browns or clears. Clears have a more pronounced tactile bump and are still quiet.

[Lanx]

g84 is tiny but keys are nasty, they stick, they sound bad (the squish of the stems) but they are an alternative, very light, portable thin and super small form factor. I wouldn't recommend it to type anything more than a few paragraphs as a reply over a regular cherry mx or comparable switch it will of course be better than membrane and cheap alps.

[crowstar]

I think ripster is trolling? (I hope he is, coz i have the little apple 'boards and they suck), but there is an auction for a model M at the moment. And on 'deskthority.net' there are many european sales in the market place.

[Lpb45]

I think ripster is trolling? (I hope he is, coz i have the little apple 'boards and they suck), but there is an auction for a model M at the moment. And on 'deskthority.net' there are many european sales in the market place.

Ripster did an entire review on the board he posted and it is a very very solid board for the price.

[woody]

I think I really like the HHKB layout

It depends. You may like it, or you may hate it. Any more intensive work with arrows and Home/End could be tiresome. Same goes for repeated use of CTRL+ALT+F7.
Keep in mind HHKB is still rubber dome, so you'll get rubber dome tactility, irrelevant of what the worshippers will tell you. Good thing - it actuates midway, not at bottom. Bad thing - no bump around activation point, so you cannot tell without looking at the screen whether lighter touch or double-tap worked as expected. If you're of the typists who spend lots of energy on pecking, that might not bother you then. If you type lightly, it's MHO that you should avoid Topre.

I'm considering mostly G84-4100 and a Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless with brown switches.

Filco is great. If you don't plan on carrying it with you, then it's a solid choice.
G84-4100 is a nice keyboard for limited desk space or carrying around. Contrary to what the GHers say, a brand new G84-4100 is a good choice. Speaking of which, I should get another one.

[Krymzon]

Thank you very much for all the replies!
I've just realised there should be another factor involved in the choice, the existence and location of Right Alt (AltGr). Also a trackpoint/clit/nub/stick would be a plus, but I do realize these are extremely rare. As for Ctrl+Alt+F# on my main machines I use it mainly for emergencies, I like my gnome-panel too much
Here are some thoughts on the keyboards you suggested and some others:

Poker - seems pretty good to me, especially at this price, but I've missed the European (deskthority) order by 3 days. I could order from Hong Kong, but this may be a bit too risky. It also lacks the Right Alt (Gr), which I should use quite a lot. I could try remapping with Left Ctrl, but that would be much different

Choc - does have the AltGr quite right, but otherwise seems inferior to Poker for my needs. Especially that easily findable Switch Lock - how often are you going to press it? Pause|Break I can at least bind to something.

DE HHKBKillah - Could be good if it really feels right. AltGr in a good location, closer to M. However, it misses the Right Super (I use quite a lot of custom bindings) and, what's worse, PgDn and co. seem unpressable when the other hand is on the mouse

Apple mini - I like the idea, but the full size aluminums at the uni seem too mushy for me, worse than my unbranded Compal laptop. Also, I'd prefer something darker, I'm wondering if the keys like dyeing

HHKB - if it doesn't have tactile feedback, that could be a bit of a problem. Also, if the new version is really coming this year... Or is it just Ripster's jokes+hopes?

Filco Tenkeyless brown - with HHKB being less tactile this gains an advantage. The layout is a bit too standard, but some remapping could help a lot. Over twice the price of all the others (exl.HHKB), though. A bit heavy for taking to work on a bike daily

G84-4100 - I would buy a brand new one, but if even they are likely to be too sticky to be used as the main keyboard, I'd probably rather get something better. Has great AltGr placement, also two Supers are a plus to me

Lenovo with TrackPoint - (here on amazon uk) good layout (huge Esc!), trackpoint, but allegedly the quality isn't great

Samsung Q1 Keyboard - wow, just found it. And it's even still available in the UK. If the switches are OK, this is likely to be great. Good layout and a trackpoint! Almost a scissored miniguru The Esc is small, but I could probably swap it with the tilde (which is next to the space bar here) This review says it's nearly full size and he reaches 89wpm on it. I'm wondering how the switches compare to the Cherry MLs. Has anyone here used it?

[n12]

Poker - seems pretty good to me, especially at this price, but I've missed the European (deskthority) order by 3 days. I could order from Hong Kong, but this may be a bit too risky. It also lacks the Right Alt (Gr), which I should use quite a lot. I could try remapping with Left Ctrl, but that would be much different

Choc - does have the AltGr quite right, but otherwise seems inferior to Poker for my needs. Especially that easily findable Switch Lock - how often are you going to press it? Pause|Break I can at least bind to something.

DE HHKBKillah - Could be good if it really feels right. AltGr in a good location, closer to M. However, it misses the Right Super (I use quite a lot of custom bindings) and, what's worse, PgDn and co. seem unpressable when the other hand is on the mouse

Apple mini - I like the idea, but the full size aluminums at the uni seem too mushy for me, worse than my unbranded Compal laptop. Also, I'd prefer something darker, I'm wondering if the keys like dyeing

HHKB - if it doesn't have tactile feedback, that could be a bit of a problem. Also, if the new version is really coming this year... Or is it just Ripster's jokes+hopes?

Filco Tenkeyless brown - with HHKB being less tactile this gains an advantage. The layout is a bit too standard, but some remapping could help a lot. Over twice the price of all the others (exl.HHKB), though. A bit heavy for taking to work on a bike daily

G84-4100 - I would buy a brand new one, but if even they are likely to be too sticky to be used as the main keyboard, I'd probably rather get something better. Has great AltGr placement, also two Supers are a plus to me

Lenovo with TrackPoint - (here on amazon uk) good layout (huge Esc!), trackpoint, but allegedly the quality isn't great

Samsung Q1 Keyboard - wow, just found it. And it's even still available in the UK. If the switches are OK, this is likely to be great. Good layout and a trackpoint! Almost a scissored miniguru The Esc is small, but I could probably swap it with the tilde (which is next to the space bar here) This review says it's nearly full size and he reaches 89wpm on it. I'm wondering how the switches compare to the Cherry MLs. Has anyone here used it?

Just curious - what's the problem with the Choc's Switch Lock key? All it's used for is switching L_Ctrl with Caps, nothing else.

Another thing about the HHKB and Poker is that they have no true arrow keys, if that matters to you.

[Ascaii]

Funnily enough I think I found a board for you two days ago going through a box of unsorted electronics.

Its a BTC-5100. Inverted individual rubber domes over the switch for tactile bump, f-keys have linear springs over the switch. Switch actuates membrane contact. Neat layout and decent feel for what is essentially a rubber dome.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823110008

[woody]

Filco Tenkeyless brown - with HHKB being less tactile this gains an advantage. The layout is a bit too standard, but some remapping could help a lot. Over twice the price of all the others (exl.HHKB), though. A bit heavy for taking to work on a bike daily

Well, stationary and luggable keyboard are different beasts, sorta like wife and a lover.

G84-4100 - I would buy a brand new one, but if even they are likely to be too sticky to be used as the main keyboard, I'd probably rather get something better. Has great AltGr placement, also two Supers are a plus to me

Just give it a shot - they could be found not that expensive. I spent several months (about 6?? can't remember anymore) daily with one as main keyboard, and don't complain much.


With about 2-3 iterations you could find very satisfying keyboard. The rest is just curiosity and boredom.

[The Solutor]

Lenovo with TrackPoint - (here on amazon uk) good layout (huge Esc!), trackpoint, but allegedly the quality isn't great

 

It's one of the best keyboard out there, likely one of the best choices for admin purposes: Good layout, trackpoint, media keys, usual great Thinkpad quality, availability in the national layout and with the iso enter.

Good tactile feeling if built by Chicony, superb tactile feeling if built by NMB.

[digitalleftovers]

Also consider the ducky 1087, and the PLU-87.  Both can be had for under $100 shipped.  The ducky has the removable cable and is lighter, so portability is good.  Both will give you choice of switch, but I don't believe they are available in a german layout.

[gore]

Am I the only g84-4100 user not to have a problem with sticking keys... I quite like them.  That said if money wasn't factored in i'd take the Filco.

[woody]

Am I the only g84-4100 user not to have a problem with sticking keys...

Of course not. That "sticking key problem" was inexistent to me until I read about it here - took me some careful (read: synthetic) attempts to reproduce. In real life - never happened to me. Proper key pressing?
Pairs well with the MX blue hysteresis hysteria.

[The Solutor]

Sticking is not exactly what happens (at least on my board), just a bit of increased friction if the key is pressed off center...

[woody]

Yep, talking about the same thing. You know how imprecise definitions are born on forums.

I'd say it has to be quite off center - that's why the "Proper key pressing?" remark.

[Human]

Sticking is not exactly what happens (at least on my board), just a bit of increased friction if the key is pressed off center...

Increased friction if pressed off center... Kinda remind me of this.
[video=youtube;Gl3qgBoW3F4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[/video]

[The Solutor]

I had a BW.  The large keys are wobbly "by design", but my sticky key was the T.

On the viseo you posted seem that the Murphy's law hit the left shift, which is wobbly and also sticky.

BTW nothing to do with the cherry 4100: it acts more like a slightly worn rubber dome keyboard where  the more worn is the stem the more friction you get pushing the keys offcenter.

[woody]

A wild guess - on the ML switches it might be a construction compromise because of the short travel and reduced size.

[theferenc]

If you're a Linux/UNIX and vi user, you really can't get better than an HHKB. It's small, it's light, and it's the perfect layout for getting real work done. I find it exceptionally comfortable to type on, as well. Sure, it isn't as tactile as my Model M, but not many things are. I would say it has an appropriate amount of tactility, and it's really quite clear when you actuate a key.

And, it really isn't that expensive if you're going to be using it to work. It really is an excellent little keyboard. And the layout on it is perfect.

[The Solutor]

I'm a linux user since the time of red hat 5 ( '95 or so if I'm not wrong) and I've never used vi as a main editor.

It's not an editor it's something to demonstrate some geekiness like the otaku keyboards.

I use it if and when nothing better is available, and I use it with  the cursor keys.

I prefer to demonstrate my geekiness with some kernel contribution, and managing to contribute to any OS comes in my hands.

And as editor in linux I use mcedit, as I use a backlit keyboard.

If you are Michael Schumacher you are still Michael Schumacher even driving a car with the robotized gears, if you are Satoru Nakajima you are still Nakajima even managing to use a manual gears car.

[woody]

If you're a Linux/UNIX and vi user, you really can't get better than an HHKB. It's small, it's light, and it's the perfect layout for getting real work done.

I disagree with that. Mostly because I've seen this so many times, that I feel like objecting at least once, to save some trouble on those that feel the itch to hop onto the wagon out of curiosity. HHKB is an odd beast, and the only definitive top it's got is price. Not that it's worst mini keyboard or anything - it's just OK keyboard. Nothing wrong for some people to see their best fit, but recommending as if it's the Holy Grail of keyboards is irresponsible.

Besides, vi/emacs/etc is just a meaningless religion.

I would say it has an appropriate amount of tactility, and it's really quite clear when you actuate a key.

I must suck then, because without looking at the screen it's not clear to me at all. You have very tiny initial travel, then the big initial bump, and then just descend to bottom, with actuation somewhere along the way.

[Krymzon]

Thanks a lot for all the thoughts. I'll start with a general update and them reply to some posts

I found a Samsung Q1 keyboard at a good price (£31 shipped, actually even bundled with a separate organiser), and I've just received it. It's very mobile, but so far seems reasonably good for desktop use, after just a few minutes I reach 67wpm. The trackpoint is pretty good, too. I'll probably write something like a short review soonish.

I'm considering ordering a Japanese layout Filco, due to the additional keys for the thumbs. I don't quite like what it does to the right hand side of the other rows, but it's very similar to what the UK layout does anyway (I prefer US ANSI).

Thanks for the new info on the G84 stickiness. If it is similar to that video or less, I think it wouldn't be much of a problem for me. I was worried the keys were getting stuck for like a second.

Just curious - what's the problem with the Choc's Switch Lock key? All it's used for is switching L_Ctrl with Caps, nothing else.

Exactly that - it's supposed to be compact, so why have a key I'd press once and not touch again?

Funnily enough I think I found a board for you two days ago going through a box of unsorted electronics.

Its a BTC-5100. Inverted individual rubber domes over the switch for tactile bump, f-keys have linear springs over the switch. Switch actuates membrane contact. Neat layout and decent feel for what is essentially a rubber dome.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823110008

Thanks a lot. Looks quite good, but 'decent for a rubber dome' seems a bit worse than the other options I'm considering. Unless you'd like to get rid of it for a small price

It's one of the best keyboard out there, likely one of the best choices for admin purposes: Good layout, trackpoint, media keys, usual great Thinkpad quality, availability in the national layout and with the iso enter.

Good tactile feeling if built by Chicony, superb tactile feeling if built by NMB.

 
Hmm the review on amazon states it's significantly worse than the ones in the laptops. Do you have one? Anyway, it would probably just keep telling me I should have bought a ThinkPad I think I'll now be considering mostly mechanical ones, as I've already bought the scissored Samsung one.

Also consider the ducky 1087, and the PLU-87.  Both can be had for under $100 shipped.  The ducky has the removable cable and is lighter, so portability is good.  Both will give you choice of switch, but I don't believe they are available in a german layout.

I'll have a closer look at them (and the availability in the UK) tomorrow, thanks.
I'm not looking for German layout, though it's acceptable. I've never lived in Germany for longer than two weeks. I like the ANSI layout - it's basically what I grew up with in Poland and I see pretty much no advantages of the smaller Shifts and Enters.

Besides, vi/emacs/etc is just a meaningless religion.

(about HHKB)
I must suck then, because without looking at the screen it's not clear to me at all. You have very tiny initial travel, then the big initial bump, and then just descend to bottom, with actuation somewhere along the way.

 
Well, I use vim, but I also use Geany
A keyboard that needs my eyes, whether on the screen or on the board, doesn't seem to be the best idea for me.

[theferenc]

I really don't know what woody is smoking here. There is no need for eyes at all. It's quite clear when the key actuates (to me, at least), and it really is a much better layout for vim and emacs both. Seriously though, if you're a keyboard person -- keyboard shortcuts trump mouse movement -- then the HHKB is an almost ideal keyboard. Everything is within easy reach, without having to move your hands really at all.

No eyes required after the first couple days of acclimation. Anyway, if you want to try the layout without shelling out that much dough, pick up a sun type 6 USB keyboard. It's large, but can be had in the states for about $30, probably close to that in the UK. Cheaper even than the HHKB lite, but still has the UNIX layout. I can send you an xmodmap file for the function layer, if you want. Bonus: it has a dedicated Atl Gr key.

[The Solutor]

Hmm the review on amazon states it's significantly worse than the ones in the laptops.

Again it depends. Yes  I have one  and I really don't mind to carry it with me.

But I have a thinkpad (and I swapped its keyboard twice, one from "stupid enter" to UK layout, the other from Chicony to NMB one).

[woody]

I really don't know what woody is smoking here.

The reality weed, I guess, mixed with some parts of frustration weed.

There is no need for eyes at all. It's quite clear when the key actuates (to me, at least)

That's the part that I can't understand - neither the published graph nor the actual usage show anything that supports this.
The only explanation I can see, is that you're of the heavy touch typists (Model M), and you apply enough force which results in enough velocity so that the initial (and only) bump seems to you like connected with actuation point. I guess you also bottom out so each stroke is accompanied with lots of travel both ways. I am of the light touch, where the keys are gently pressed and fingers just glide over, and here's where the problem comes. Most annoying is when double-tapping is required - not in games, but the regular double-tap where two of the same character must be input, like "aa". With the lack of tactility around the actuation point, a light touch will return slightly upwards, but not enough to go back to the un-actuated zone. And the lack of bigger spring force helps that too.

Here's a test done on HHKB with groups of five 'a' separated by space, without looking:

Code: [Select]

aaaaa aaaa aaaa aaaa aaaaa aaaaa aaaaa aaaa aaa aaa aaaaa aaaaa aaaaa aaa aaaa aaaa

and it really is a much better layout for vim and emacs both.

The point is, these two are a minor part of the software around the globe and cannot be any serious reference. Less geekness/religion == more objective value.

Seriously though, if you're a keyboard person -- keyboard shortcuts trump mouse movement -- then the HHKB is an almost ideal keyboard. Everything is within easy reach, without having to move your hands really at all.

CTRL+ALT+F7 is not easy reach - you either have to do CTRL+Fn+ALT with left hand and press '7' with right, or you have to do CTRL+ALT with left and Fn+7 with right. The latter makes for a good finger athletics.
Cursor layout is tiring, they should've tried with the inverted T.
Home/End are too far, so also tiring. Cursor navigation cluster has to be COMFORTABLE.
There is no mode where you have Backspace and Fn+Backspace would give you "Del".


IMHO: HHKB is OK keyboard. It has nice keycaps and the clean dark-on-white scheme with grey modifiers is my favorite. The Topre is not a good switch. Honestly, it's just a rubber dome with proper sensing, but tactility still sucks. The compact layout has nice ideas, but they need some further refinement - although that could be too personal ... dunno. It has given me enough ground for further experiments.

[The Solutor]

IMHO:The Topre is not a good switch. Honestly, it's just a rubber dome with proper sensing, but tactility still sucks. The compact layout has nice ideas, but they need some further refinement - although that could be too personal ... dunno. It has given me enough ground for further experiments.

 
Obviously this is a truth too simple to see when one owns another keyboard, but too hard to accept when one have spent 200+ $/€ on a supposed top of the line switch/keyboard.

Speaking strictly of the HHKB it's layout is pointless and I imagine dozens of Japanese engineers laughing about westerners who spent such amount of money in a keyboard that (unlike the their own one) lacks even the arrow keys.

Frankly the KBC Poker is far from perfect, but seem projected by Albert Einstein if you compare it with an HHKB pro.

[theferenc]

I guess it really depends on what you're used to. I use a plus layout on my arrow keys on my IBM keyboards, so that's normal to me. Also, I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with the X virtual console command. Sure, it's something that might be used, but not all that often.

And yes, I do bottom out on my HHKB, but not on my IBMs, so I'm more in the middle when it comes to typing. And sure, overall vim and emacs usage is pretty low. But if you spend most of your day in one of those two editors, having a layout geared toward them is really quite a nice thing. The OP is a stated vim user in some *nix OS that has gnome. I assume linux, but it could be a BSD or Solaris. Either way, that's a fairly special case.

You might find the Topre switch to be less than ideal. That's fine. I think Cherry switches feel god awful. I prefer buckling springs. But for a mobile keyboard, it really is hard to trump the HHKB. The key feel, the layout, and the size are, just frankly, yet to be matched, let alone beat.

It all depends on what you want. For some of us, layout and key feel matter equally. For others, less so. I would never want to use anything Cherry based for more than short, rare uses. Same goes for anything with chiclet style keys. And for the stated use to which the OP wishes to put the keyboard, layout clearly matters. Hence, the HHKB is a viable option. I really don't care if you personally dislike it. That's your right as an individual.

[The Solutor]

BTW i still  not understand why the HHKB layout should be better for a VI user.

Just for example, the second layered arrows shouldn't be FN+HJKL to match the usual VI layout even in other editors/programs?

[theferenc]

Why add an extra layer to HJKL? Those work in command mode, without needing another button press. It's more the logical placement of ESC, which is used quite frequently in vi.

And if you want those, just use xmodmap to map them there. Easy peasy.

[The Solutor]

Why add an extra layer to HJKL? Those work in command mode, without needing another button press.

I know how VI works.

But don't you think that can be nice to have the same scheme on other programs (and in windows/macos/whatever) , instead of having a 3rd place for the arrows ?

Obviously  xmodmap is a solution, but is still annoying for people (like me) who has half dozen of OSes installed, and for those used to test a lot of distros.

Fixing things is fine, doing the right thing from the beginning is better IMHO.

[woody]

I guess it really depends on what you're used to. I use a plus layout on my arrow keys on my IBM keyboards, so that's normal to me.

You mean the numpad? That's what I'd used before, and I can swap between it and the other cursor cluster seamless. Actually, I'd prefer the tenkeyless with such numpad, but I digress.

EDIT: Forgot the important part - the HHKB arrows are not plus, they're too narrow on the X axis. That's uncomfortable if you put four fingers on all four arrows.

Also, I'm not sure why you're so obsessed with the X virtual console command. Sure, it's something that might be used, but not all that often.

It's often in my case, can't change it.

You might find the Topre switch to be less than ideal. That's fine. I think Cherry switches feel god awful. I prefer buckling springs. But for a mobile keyboard, it really is hard to trump the HHKB.

You can't talk about Cherry switches in general - they're quite different. It's easy to think it's some kind of a prejudice. Anyway. We both had our arguments on this, case closed.

[theferenc]

Quite valid, woody. It's nice to have a disagreement with someone who stays rational about it.

And for the record, I've tried most of the available cherry switches, and dislike all of them. There just isn't one I like...though I do have hopes for reds. But that's for another discussion.

Sorry, Krymzon for taking it so far OT. Back on topic, as you can see, there are many fine choices, and each will have its proponents. It's just too bad there isn't a small buckling spring keyboard. The mini is still quite large and heavy, and totally unsuitable for moving around a lot. Not to mention even more expensive than the HHKB in general.