Heavier than blues for typing?

[daniel.ocarroll]

Hi guys,

I've just bought my first mechanical keyboard. I thought that I had ordered the Filco MX brown, but it turns out (after I vaguely remembered something about brown and blue having different LCD colours) that it's actually MX Blue ( I must have been really tired or in a big rush when ordering). Anyway, while I had assumed until just a few minutes ago that the reason that this felt so light was that it was the MX Brown version (and I was planning on exchanging for an MX blue), but now that I realize that it's the blue switch version, I can't see what I can exchange for / upgrade to? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest as I'd assumed that what I'd ordered was just a bit too light and the blues would be perfect. Now that the 'perfect mechanical for typing' feels a lot too light for me I'm unsure what to get, as besides what I consider to be the very light weight of the keys I'm absolutely in love with the keyboard!

I know that buckling springs have the highest weight of all the mechanicals, but I tried one out in my mum's office (albeit a non-working one, it was one of the unreliable M2s that had just broken down) and found it a little bit too heavy, quite tiring.

I type literally round the clock and do absolutely no gaming. Can anyone recommend a switch that would be heavier than the blues, lighter than buckling springs, and not in the sort of insane price range as the other switches (Alps and Torpe). I've seen some references to MX clears and whites but they seem to be very hard to come by and the nearest online reatiler (the keybord company, UK) doesn't seem to carry any keyboard with that switch.

[squarebox]

Clear are awesome to type on which are heavier than blue but non-clicky.
To bottom out, you must purposely attempt it.
I love typing on it but unfortunately for me, I game more than I type.

U can get clear switch from various keyboards.
G80-8113 - cheap on ebay but used
G80-3000 - new @ http://global.pchome.com.tw/?mod=item&func=exhibit&IT_NO=DCAH21-A53514192&SR_NO=DCAH21&ROWNO=10&tm=u

[Ascaii]

Alright...I have several recommendations for you. First, switch the keys for some thicker, heavier caps. Either the thick lasered Caps used on Cherry POS boards, which can be got off ebay for about 10$ or some Cherry doubleshots, which pop up on ebay or in the classifieds. The weight of the keys does make a difference on the feel.

Another recommendation would be to mod your current blue keyboard. There are several options:
-Replace the blue spring with a heavier one, like a black switch spring. Or get a set of Cherry green switches and exchange them with your blues.
Personally, I love the cherry green switch, but it isnt exactly easy to get large amounts of them.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Thanks, guys. I'm not really into the idea of modifying the board. I think if it's going to come to that it's probably easier just to go to the buckling spring. I think I'd actually have an easier time adapting to a little more weight than to this. It's not really that bad but just a bit of a nuisance.

One question: does anybody know the force requirement for scissor switches?

It's just that I read in another thread that the average force requirement for rubber-domes was somewhere between 45g and 55g, and blues are 50, which would make them about the same as the average rubber-dome, but this feels a LOT lighter than any keyboard I've ever used before, so I'm a bit confused about that.

Perhaps it's because I've recently been using the Apple Wired (scissor swithc) and laptops, which is why I'm wondering.

[BucklingSpring]

besides what I consider to be the very light weight of the keys I'm absolutely in love with the keyboard!

I know that buckling springs have the highest weight of all the mechanicals, but I tried one out in my mum's office (albeit a non-working one, it was one of the unreliable M2s that had just broken down) and found it a little bit too heavy, quite tiring.

Can anyone recommend a switch that would be heavier than the blues, lighter than buckling springs, and not in the sort of insane price range as the other switches (Alps and Torpe).

If you find your blue too light, I supposed it's because your previous keyboard was stiffer.

Blue clicks, brown doesn't. Clear doesn't click either. I hope it's not the click that you like so much.

Drastic changes in your typing world are bond to feel weird at first. I say give you some time to get used to the MX blue.

As you say, clear are not that common, Topre are expensive and you don't like Buckling Springs. (Although you might want to try a Buckling springs in good shape and also give you time to get used to it before ruling that one out for good. Unicomp keyboards are not that expensive)

[daniel.ocarroll]

Buckling Spring,

I guess that judging by your username you're a fan!

I don't know if the age of a buckling spring makes any difference, but the one that I tried to use (after having spent two hours individually cleaning each keycap) would have been over a decade old, and used intensively in a factory setting from when it was bought. So perhaps that contributed to the stiffness?

Actually I've tried out a variety of keyboards before buying this trying to find something that I really liked. I have the Apple Wired Aluminium but was never really a fan. The laptop I type on is an Acer 5732 (very average scissor switch). I also really enjoyed an old (rubberdome) Microsoft Internet Keyboard. Actually that was probably the best I've used recently but had to leave it behind as it didn't belong to me. I use a few others as well on a regular basis (in college, friends' houses). They're all rubber dome but all significantly stiffer than this. I should also add that I'm a very heavy typists. I average about 90-100WPM but love to really pound the keys when I get into whatever I'm doing. I actually love the sound on these blues, but that wouldn't be the only reason that I'd stick with them. Whether they click or not doesn't really matter to me tbh.

Don't get me wrong, I love the feeling of the mechanical switches, and the build and design quality is simply amazing, but I don't think I'd ever get used to the lightness no matter how long I own one of these! I think the Unicomp may be the way to go..

[BucklingSpring]

I don't know if the age of a buckling spring makes any difference, but the one that I tried to use (after having spent two hours individually cleaning each keycap) would have been over a decade old, and used intensively in a factory setting from when it was bought. So perhaps that contributed to the stiffness?

 
You bet... Die hard fan.

Oh so you took the time to clean the keys. Then in that case, heavily used buckling springs tend to be softer... Not stiffer.

I'm a bit slower than you and I do pound the keys – I enjoy it the most on buckling springs and Topre all 55g. I will adapt to lighter switches after couples of weeks. But no matter what, I always come back to my roots :-)

[jpz]

If you like the buckling spring keyboards then you can get a new one from a company called "Unicomp".  They manufacturer the classic IBM model M now a days. But if you go here there is a graph of the force that is required for each key switch and it also includes scissor and rubber domes.

[Larry Dallas]

Model M springs are quite a bit heavier than blues, and everyone should have a used Model M, anyway. You could also just type on what you have until you get used to it.

[bhtooefr]

There's also the Model F. I'd argue that it's closer in feel to a heavier blue than the Model M is. (And, it feels lighter than a Model M.)

[daniel.ocarroll]

I think that was sound advice, guys. For the money I've spent and all that, I think it's work hanging on to this, as even if it is a bit light, it's an amazing quality keyboard, and no matter what I say now, I reckon that in a week or two I'll have adapted. I think the trick as well (to getting used to any new keyboard) is to doing something online that distracts your attention from your typing. I've a couple of web design jobs to get through next week so hopefully once I've gotten through those using this I'll be fully 'acclimatized'.

Having said that, I checked the Unicomp site and the Computizer 101 (or something like that) only works out at €90 including delivery all the way to ireland. Assuming that there isn't custom duties to pay on the way in (and that's probably a very unsound assumption), that's within budget. I guess getting those websites done could be motivation to buy that as well. I think having one of each would be sort of ideal as I understand that typing all days on buckling springs is a bit fatigueing too.

Cheers for the advice, guys, I've only had this a day and I'm already scoping out my second purchase. I honestly didn't expect that something like keyboards could become this interesting / addictive!

[bhtooefr]

Customizer 101.

And there's also a Customizer 104, and a SpaceSaver 104, which are the same price IIRC, and you get Windows keys.

[daniel.ocarroll]

thanks. i think the customizer 101 is the one I'm interested in. Pity that none of them look all that great. Perhaps there'd be more of a market for them even within the mechanical keboarding world if they hadn't done such a great job at emulating the original design of the model m. Would it really be that hard to stick some buckling springs into something modern looking like the Filcos? or is the old look part of the appeal too? Either way it would be a fairly legit use of €90 so I'll wait to get those jobs done! No way I'm going back to rubber domes, though, these things are fantastic!

[bhtooefr]

They weren't emulating the original design of the Model M, though.

They're making original Model Ms.

As in, they're using Lexmark's old tooling.

That said, if you want something that looks different from the old-school Model M, the SpaceSaver is based on the same internals, but a smaller, more modern case...

In any case, the Model M2 is one that I've said would've been interesting to see a remake of. Very small, sleek case, and cheap to make... if only they didn't suffer from controller blight and broken stabilizers...

[daniel.ocarroll]

Yeah, the M2 was actually the one I found in the factory, spent two hours cleaning, was really excited about using, plugged in, and then found that it had broken! and I was really careful to dry all around the keys (but I've heard that you can practically stick those things in a dishwasher so I don't think water damage was the reason, they're supposedly just very fickle).

I had another look through the Unicomp catalogue but I still think they all look kind of dated, even the Spacesaver. To be honest I really couldn't care less if I owned one, but I don't think that choosing a buckling spring keyboard should mean you have to choose from keyboards that look like they've jumped straight out of the nineties!

Space not really being a concern for me (I've a big desk), is the Customizer 101 the best choice? I tried running a search for Model Ms on google.ie but couldn't find anything so I guess there's none being sold on classifieds in the country, which is kinda bad!`

Just read the history of the Unicomps by the way. Didn't realize they literally bought the patent off IBM and starting making them. So I guess they're basically the same thing more or less as modern modern Ms.

[bhtooefr]

Never stick a Model M in a dishwasher.

But, your M2's problem was most likely because the controller had failed, very common problem.

In any case, the reason you can't get a modern looking BS keyboard is because Unicomp hasn't been able to tool for a modern design, whereas they have the older designs already available to them. (There are the Sheng Ya BS keyboards, but they're best not talked about. They're downright awful.)

Also look for the part numbers. 1391406 is the UK layout, I don't believe there's any special Irish layout.

[Findecanor]

Can anyone recommend a switch that would be heavier than the blues, lighter than buckling springs, and not in the sort of insane price range as the other switches (Alps and Torpe).

I have heard about a switch commonly called "SMK Monterey" on that should be like something in-between a Cherry Blue and Buckling spring in feel.
Available only in rare keyboards from the 80's and 90's. I would like to find a cheap one, myself, just to try them out ...

Another recommendation would be to mod your current blue keyboard.

It may be a bit difficult to mod a Filco like this, even though several people here have. Each switch has to be de-soldered from the circuit board before it can be opened and the spring exchanged for a stiffer one.

I can recommend a keyboard with Cherry MX Clear. It feels a little bit like a scissor switch .. on air, and much lighter but quite heavier than the MX Blue or Brown.

I have bought several Cherry keyboards (that is, the whole keyboard made by Cherry) from eBay.de  to Sweden at a low cost. Cherry is a German brand, so they are more plentiful there. Also, low shipping costs and no customs fees within the EU.

I find the IBM Model M to feel nicer than the M2. It is more sturdily built and the keys caps are heaver, which affects the key feel in a positive way. Also, the  back-plane is curved vs. flat on the M2.
Some connaiseurs of the buckling springs also find older worn springs to be somewhat lighter than new springs ... while others feel no difference.

[daniel.ocarroll]

from what I've read so far it does sound as if the cherry clear switch would be ideal, but it is quite hard to find. I actually only found out that cherry was a german company this morning. there are actually a couple of UK websites that I hadn't known about before i ordered the MX blue, but none of them actually mention what colour switches they use (well you can work it out e.g. clicky tactile = blue, etc, but no mention of clears).

I think if I do get a buckling spring one to complement the blues then I'll just go for the Unicomp. THat old switches (the Monterey) sounds really cool, but I think mechanicals are hard enough to track down without the added difficulty of finding a vintage model.

Hopefully in time BSs will make a resurgence and we'll get some nicer designs, but I think it's a case of function over form for mech keyboard fans in general!

[Reaif]

As far as descriptions of MX switches go, sometimes they can be misleading. My brother ordered a few switches from Mouser to find out what the differences between some of them were. Some descriptions made sense, but the one that said "Soft Tactile" which we thought would be brown, were actually clear switches. There were two other switches which we thought would make sense too. We saw "Linear" and "High Force Linear" which seemed like they would be red and black. He ordered a couple of the "Linear" ones but they ended up being black. I imagine that the "High Force" ones are likely to be grey switches.

Rambling aside, if you can find a board that is being described as "Soft Linear" and has no description of color, it could have clear switches.

[bhtooefr]

Ergonomic Soft Tactile is the brown, by the way.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Thanks, I'l look out for that description, but I don't think I've seen a 'soft linear' in the Majestouch range either.

I think I'll just have to buy that Unicomp board. I must be one of the 1pc of mech users who simply aren't enthralled by typing on the blue switches. No matter how much I try I can't stop focusing on how daintily I'm having to type to avoid getting sharp feedback to my fingers (when I slam the keys down, which apparently is my favourite way of typing!). Think something which can absorb a bit more force is in order. Buckling springs it shall have to be!

[daniel.ocarroll]

Also, I just read on another form that Alps would be another alternative to the buckling springs? Are they heavier? I know they're also pricier though, so buckling springs may be the best match of firmness and price.`

[False_Dmitry_II]

How could alps be pricier at all? They don't make switches anymore, so you have to get a vintage one. On ebay from $10 to $50 for anything but an omnikey. It's really not that hard to find.

Also for clears go to 1. the great finds forums, there is one that is mentioned in there that is in better condition than I expected (only used for an hour or two, so not ready to comment on how I like it) or 2. the worldwide shopping links, there are some current models for sale with them.

[daniel.ocarroll]

thanks false_dmitry_ii. I'm looking for something new to be honest. Not picky about that sort of thing in general (I can't be, I'm a student!) but I think that in this case as it's something that I intend to be using for a long long time I'd rather start with something fresh out of the box before making a mess of it myself. So if the Alp switches have gone out of production that pretty much ends my interest in them I'm afraid!

I'll take a look in the clears forum but being a total noob it seems like the Customizer would be the easiest option, and again it's something new that I'm looking for.

My new concern about the customizer (nothing with mechanical keyboards seems to be that straightforward) is that they don't compare in quality to the old Model Ms (seems to be a common concern), but I guess as long as they work and provide some decent feedback I'd be satisfied.

[bhtooefr]

Also, in my experience, the Unicomp boards tend to be lighter than a IBM or Lexmark Model M, so if that M2 was too stiff for you, the Unicomps might be better.

[daniel.ocarroll]

Thanks, that sounds like the one to go for by all accounts, as the clears seem to be really hard to find, although they'd probably be ideal.

In case anyone's interested, I compiled all the switches by actuation weight from the mechanical guide to try help me figure out what one would be closest in weight to rubber-domes. Let me know if that's right / there are errors. It seems as if clears would be the closest and following that Alps, but as I said they both seem to be harder to find, unfortunately!



Weight requirements by various switches   :
         
Type of switch
Actuation weight (g)
Buckling Springs
65-70
White Alps
60-70
Black Alps
60
Rubber dome
55-60
Cherry MX Black
60
Cherry MX Clear
55
Cherry MX Blue
50
Cherry MX Brown
45
Cherry MX Red
40
Topre
35-45

Edit: I think the guide said that the Topres go  up to 55g..

[False_Dmitry_II]

I'll say it again. This is how you find a new one: Step one, look at the top of the page. Step two, find wiki. Step three, click on wiki. step four, click on worldwide shopping links. Step five, find where you are in the world. Step six, go to that section. Step seven, find clear cherries in the list. Step eight, compare the few options. Step nine, buy it.

And the one from the great finds forum is in quite good condition, with full NKRO.

[godofdeath]

u can mod if you buy the boards in the great finds section

[Ascaii]

Have you tried white alps yet?

[keyboardlover]

No one's ripometered all the clear variants yet?

[BucklingSpring]

Graph in the Geekhack Mechanical Keyboard Guide.

I like your graph.
Do you think it would make it too crowded if you add tactile/linear and clickyness?
(Maybe you consider median "sound" for clicky or not)
EDIT: "PUT A NICKEL RipOmeter ON IT AND I'LL ADD MOAR!!!!" -> You don't rely on specs? (eg for Clear MX)

[RiGS]

You need 65cN to press through the bump in mx clears.

[False_Dmitry_II]

I'm using clears right now, they aren't very loud. I'd guess slightly louder than browns (which I don't have) since the switch itself rubs more.

I still bottom out on them some, though. I guess that's why I wasn't bothered by BS boards.

[keyboardlover]

Where would people put Clears on the sound axis?

I would say the same distance to brown as brown is to red. I personally don't find them to be much louder, but I think that's partly because I don't bottom out on them. Bottoming out plays a big role in sound, both volume and pitch of the switches.

[keyboardlover]

Funny thing: I compared PCB-mounted reds vs. ergo clears tonight and I found the reds to be louder.

I think it's mostly due to bottom out though.