A sad day in Filco Ninja Land

[penpoints]

I ordered TWO Filco Majestouch-2 tenkeyless Ninja keyboards, with mx browns, from Amazon. They arrived yesterday, and at first I was thrilled to get these beautiful keyboards.

Then, after some testing, I noticed... PING!, BOING!, ZING! - actually just the same ringing tone, with varying degrees of loudness, when releasing the Back Space, Enter, and other keys in that general area. That's where it's the worst, but the whole board has this "feature" - and both keyboards do it, in exactly the same way.

How much $$$ have I spent on BOOKS from Amazon over the years? I don't want to think about that, but this will be my FIRST return to Amazon, ever - so they'd better take them back.

Anyway, maybe I just got two lemons, by coincidence. But I don't think so. I'll bet they're all like this, at least the browns. Actually it's not that loud, just mostly annoying. I once had a 1st-generation Matias Tactile Pro (sold) that was like a miniature percussion band: clicking, clacking, pinging and squeaking - what a racket!

[noodles256]

stabilizers tend to make noise. Mine don't make that kind of noise.

Sorry to hear the bad news, good luck on your return.

inb4 viper2 bashes Filco quality

[kriminal]

filco Ninja keyboards?

[penpoints]

stabilizers tend to make noise. Mine don't make that kind of noise.

Sorry to hear the bad news, good luck on your return.

inb4 viper2 bashes Filco quality

It's coming from the switches themselves. To prove this, I removed the Back Space keycap, held the switch down and released it quickly: there's a loud PING. Nearby switches have it almost as bad, and the whole keyboard has this problem to a lesser degree. It's exactly the same with both keyboards (Filco Majestouch-2 Tenkeyless Ninja, brown switches, purchased from Amazon.com).

[hyperlinked]

I don't have a Ninja, but if they're anything like the Majestouches, the noise is from a combination of the switches and the steel plate mounting. There have been reports of this being a problem for people before in the past.

A lot of mechanical keyboards make noise like this. Model M's have a really loud ping.

[flaming_june]

Kinda regretting getting rid of all three of my first gens.

[penpoints]

BTW I just stick my keyboards on a SuperXXL Mousemat.  You'd be surprised the difference.

Have you considered listening to a lot of Death Metal?

I just subjected my Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (1st generation), mx brown switches, to the same test. I removed the Back Space keycap, held the switch down and released it quickly, several times: instead of a loud PING there's just a dull click. Of course that's how it should sound.

Putting the new keyboards on a sound-deadening pad made no appreciable difference. There's still a loud ping.

These two keyboards (Filco Majestouch-2 Tenkeyless Ninja, mx browns) will be returned tomorrow. They are defective. This was just a heads-up for you guys. Maybe I got the only two lemons in the bunch. Who knows?

[Wallach]

My first experience with a Filco was a MJ2 tenkeyless with browns myself (from the first Amazon batch) and I returned it for the exact same reason. It wasn't something I'd consider minor, the backspace and arrow keys were really loud. I had a Daskeyboard S to compare it to at the time it arrived and the Daskeyboard made no such noise whatsoever on any of the keys. I wouldn't blame you for sending them back for that if it was anywhere as loud as mine.

[substract]

I have a filco brown coming from amazon and these threads scare me.

[sordna]

The keyboard is not defective, the noise comes from the springs inside the cherry switches. It comes with the territory of mechanical switches. Get over it and don't return perfectly fine keyboards.

[mmmty]

I have:
Filco gen 1 brown - no ping
Filco gen 1 blue - no ping
Filco gen 2 red - ping
Filco gen 2 TKL brown - no ping (so far)

[canon.tk]

My 87 Filco Ninja with browns from Amazon doesn't make any pinging sounds at all.  I've heard Filco boards make that sound so I know what it is, and mine doesn't do it.  And I've tested for it.

The Filco Ninja is a perfectly fine keyboard.  Sometimes things like this happens.

[hobojelloz]

I got my Filco Ninja brown today and I don't notice any difference in sounds with the keys mentioned by other people. However, this is my first mechanical keyboard and I'm not too sure what the ping's or ding's or pong's should sound like entirely. I love this keyboard and don't plan on returning it any time soon.

[penpoints]

These PING! threads come up every 6 months or so.

You'll notice PING! has been in the Geekhack Mechanical Keyboard Guide Glossary (sticky above) since the beginning.

I'd say it's as significant a problem as shiny spacebars.

If there's ambient sound - talking, music or whatever - then the pinging isn't such a big deal. But in a quiet room it's deadly. Ping, ping, ping, ping... This isn't normal at all.

There's a HUGE difference between the quiet clicking of my first-generation Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless keyboards (brown switches) and the noise from the two second-generation keyboards that arrived yesterday. The new ones are certainly defective - but judging from some of the other comments, it seems like there are some good ones out there, in the exact same model. Good luck finding them.

[keyboardlover]

It's definitely a significant issue. I had a tenkeyless with browns before and sold it because I couldn't stand that annoying ping sound.

[noodles256]

I have a majestouch 1 with blues.

No pinging unless you count the asians playing ping pong on it.

[Tony]

If someone is too sensitive to keyboard sounds, then a headphone with music is the best solution.

I have a Filco Majestic 1 brown and sometimes the sound is very metallic ping too, compared with my old Compaq MX11800 brown. I also have a shiny Space keycap after 6 months of heavy use.

All that is fine to me since the key switches and typing feel are the same. I consider keycaps and typing sounds less important.

[keyboardlover]

I'm curious how many people have experienced this "ping" so I created a poll here:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?18739-Have-you-experienced-the-Filco-quot-ping-quot-noise

[sordna]

What about pings on other boards? It's not particular to Filco. It's a characteristic of the cherry MX switch. However different boards may amplify the sound in different ways. I would not call it a defect however, you may get the sound even though the keyboard manufacturer did nothing wrong.

[canon.tk]

I can hear the springs doing the ping sound on my Leopold with browns but I doesn't resonate across the board like I've heard a Filco do.

[sixty]

I betcha a little foam type padding under the PCB would also go a long way in reducing this.  The case acts like a guitar soundbox.

 
This. A little bit of foam or "rubber" can fix the problem. I currently use some rubber-foam called "Rutsch Stop". CeeSa has also previously used this to reduce noise and soften switch landing. I wrote a rough guide (for another keyboard) on how to best use the stuff, it should work for the Filco as well:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?13165-Fix-G80-3000-(and-probably-G81-1800)-flexing

[redpill]

I betcha a little foam type padding under the PCB would also go a long way in reducing this.  The case acts like a guitar soundbox.

The case is involved but the metal plate itself is really the source, it rings like a tuning fork.

[flaming_june]

I have a majestouch 1 with blues.

No pinging unless you count the asians playing ping pong on it.

Hey one joke over the line sweet jesus, one joke over the line.

[litster]

noodle is originated from China, like many of the keyboards and keycaps we buy.  8 bits == 1 byte represents 256 variations. Take a byte of noodle. :-)

[nhwhaup]

I have a tenkeyless Filco with reds that I bought through the keyboard co and I have no pinging at all. I tried putting my ear right down and releasing the keys and spacebar quickly and absolutely no pinging.  I also have the full-sized version at work and that one I purchased off Amazon but also via the keyboard co.  I haven't noticed any pinging but I'll really check it out today when I get to work. I do know that the keys seemed to have a different sound on some of the keys after I switched the keycaps to PBT ones.

[Surly73]

I'm curious how many people have experienced this "ping" so I created a poll here:

 
Do we have a recording of a reference sample?  Sometimes I'd say I hear a "clink" from some of the stabilized keys on my MJ-1 w/ browns but certainly not any undampened ringing like "piiiiing" implies.

[keyboardlover]

That's a good point. Folks with ping-y boards: let's get some audio samples uploaded!

[Wallach]

That's a good point. Folks with ping-y boards: let's get some audio samples uploaded!

I would if I hadn't sent mine back almost immediately. I get the impression mine was worse than most peoples' though. It was loud enough that it was clear as day even when listening to music through my studio monitors.

[keyboardlover]

That's how mine was too. Crazy loud, despite how hard or soft I typed.

[redpill]

I'll take some recordings today and post them

[elbowglue]

This ping is not found on any PCB mounted keyboards as far as I can tell.

And bottoming out on PCB mounted keyboards is quite pleasant to do as well.

[daerid]

None of my 3 Filcos ping. Must have lucked out. However, there's a few keys on my Das Keyboard that pink like crazy

[Tony]

Cherry switches are not made from rubber, but from metal. Some keys just consonate, I think.

[keyboardlover]

It's not an issue specific to plate mounting. Neither of my current Filcos have this noise. Seems to be a sporadic issue but when it does occur its definitely noticeable and can be quite annoying. For me its a dealbreaker.

[morethanless]

Or THIS!

Wow thats ugly.

[litster]

If this kind of stuff bugs spend the $400 and get a Topre Realforce Silent from Japan.  When you live with rice paper walls you need silent.

I hae urge to wet my finger and poke holes through rice paper windows, from watching all the ninja movies.

[redpill]

Here you go.  Probably need to crank the sound a bit.

[sordna]

I could hear the ping on your filco, but it's much much lower level than either the downstroke or the upstroke sound. It's really a non-issue. If it bothers you, open up the case and stick some foam, rubber, sorbothane, duct tape, foam, whatever, inside the case, around the plate, etc.
Post results, it would be useful. Much more useful than returning perfectly good keyboards and making the case that Americans are better off with membrane keyboards.

[redpill]

I could hear the ping on your filco, but it's much much lower level than either the downstroke or the upstroke sound. It's really a non-issue. If it bothers you, open up the case and stick some foam, rubber, sorbothane, duct tape, foam, whatever, inside the case, around the plate, etc.
Post results, it would be useful. Much more useful than returning perfectly good keyboards and making the case that Americans are better off with membrane keyboards.

1) I didn't say I was returning it.

2) Obviously it's not a non-issue if it bothers some people and it doesn't do it on other keyboards.

3) Stop worrying about an agenda!  It is what it is.

4) I'm planning on various experiments to dampen the sound and will report results when available.

[hobojelloz]

Now I'm just super paranoid about my keyboard.

[sordna]

It's an agenda. A conspiracy :-) Look what happened to manual transmissions. The automative equivalent of mech keyboards. The rest of the world gets all the nice cars (even family cars and SUVs) with a stick. In the US, it has to be the base model with the wimpy engine (if you're lucky enough to have stick available as an option). In Europe, most grandmothers drive a stick. Over here, most people don't even know how. So sad.

[penpoints]

The case is involved but the metal plate itself is really the source, it rings like a tuning fork.

 
Yes, like a TUNING FORK. (I wish I had thought of that.) It's loud, there's just one tone, and it sets up a kind of resonance effect.

Generally I don't mind noisy keyboards at all. In fact, I LIKE THEM. Noise is good. But this pinging is just too weird.

Currently I have 7 Filco keyboards (1st generation, all tenkeyless), with blue, brown, and black switches, and none of them ping. I think it's obvious that at least some of the 2nd-generation Filcos are defective.

Anyway, I've already mailed them back. If Amazon won't accept the return, then maybe I'll try to resell them here, since so many of you are saying that there's "no problem." I would include free ear plugs, duct tape, foam rubber, etc., and probably discount the keyboards to $129 each. What a deal!
:music:

[Tennobanzai]

Outrageous! These ninjas would never pass the test as real ninjas if they were made in Okinawa

[redpill]

In the US, it has to be the base model with the wimpy engine (if you're lucky enough to have stick available as an option).

Pfft, my M3 disagrees

[sordna]

Well, tuning forks are useful. Jot down whether you ping is a B# or whatever, and tune your guitar with it. Now that's what I would call a proper geek.

[sordna]

Pfft, my M3 disagrees

Try gettiing a stickshift rental. Or a large family car or SUV. Even some American "sporty" cars, all looks, and they still come with auto and torque converter slush in between your engine and your wheels.

[keyboardlover]

There's no agenda. It's annoyed some people so we're discussing it.

Censorship and agendas are for the deskthoritys and Ocns of the world.

[Findecanor]

This ping is not found on any PCB mounted keyboards as far as I can tell.

I have no Filco, but I have keyboards with
 - PCB-mounted MX Blues, Browns, Clears, Blacks
 - Plate-mounted MX Blacks

Of these,
- my PCB-mounted Blacks ping
- one of my plate-mounted Blacks ping but the other doesn't!
The ping emitted from the pinging keyboards sounds like the ping from redpill's Filco with Browns.

None of my other Cherry MX keyboards emit any pinging noise. I can hear some slight noise from the spring when if I put my ear next to a switch, but unlike the pinging keyboards I can not hear any spring noise during normal typing.

My theory is that some batches of switches may have springs made of a different metal alloy than others.

Anyone tried the Dental Floss mod on Cherry MX's yet?

Not possible with Cherry MX. The slider occupies this space. I am afraid that if you would cut off this part then the switch will be less stable. This part of the slider is so long that it will even pass through the PCB when the key is pressed to the bottom.

Outrageous! These ninjas would never pass the test as real ninjas if they were made in Okinawa

Ninjas are from mainland Japan. You may be thinking of Karate, which is from Okinawa.
Karate practitioners yell when they strike, and this is called "ki-ai". Ninjas are of course above such nonsense. ;-)

[Tennobanzai]

Pfft, my M3 disagrees

Yeah but europe got all the cool variants like the CSL, Evo, and GTR. Not to mention a lot of the good japanese cars too

Ninjas are from mainland Japan. You may be thinking of Karate, which is from Okinawa.
Karate practitioners yell when they strike, and this is called "ki-ai". Ninjas are of course above such nonsense. ;-)

I never learned about ninjas but I just assumed they were lowly peasants and western movies made them sound all cool. Just like how western movies make it seem like samurais always used swords as there main weapon

[morethanless]

European cars more and more get dual clutch transmission to get rid of torque converter automatic.