Das Browns versus finger pain... my results

[greyhounds]

After 1.5 years of bottoming out my UltraX, my genetics (EDS) caught up to me and I've got alot of knuckle joint pain and stiffness going on.

I researched a bunch and decided to go with a Das Silent (brown) for the low force and quietness as I use this in an office with cheap paper thin cubicle walls. After 2 weeks, my impressions and questions for the experienced are:

1) It's not silent. It's hard to feel the tactile bump with my reduced dexterity so I tend to bottom the keys, and I like the sound. . The FB over the cube wall from me farts all day anyway so what do I care about making a little noise?
2) Firm pads quiet the keyboard immensely, but you loose the bottoming clack, and tend to hit them even harder. They also feel "grittier" with the pads - not as smooth. I don't know why.
3) The longer travel resulting from travelling the keys fully is causing me to "trip" over the other keys, as I'm still used to a short travel scissor switch.
4) The keycap shape has a cup and the edge seems sharper and sharper as the day goes on (hypersensitivity also related to EDS there). THe UltaX had a flat key top like any laptop style keyboard would. Do any on the mech keyboards have a flatter, wider keytop?
5) My hand pain has decreased slightly, but with the shock of bottoming out still going on I doubt I'm going to see any quick improvements.

I'm thinking of trying a blue keyboard. My thought is that if I hear the click then I won't have to bottom the keys out. With the pads on there it'd quiet down any clack from bottoming anyway, and soften the hits for my poor complaining knuckles.

The blues do have a bit more force though, but I don't think it'll be a significant factor.

Anyone have any thoughts/opinions on this one? I'd love to hear from other hand pain sufferers...

[Lanx]

never bottom out if you have joint pain, or you'll have even more.

[sordna]

Interesting, I've also noticed that with landing pads I don't quite feel the bottom out so sometimes I tend to push harder than I need. The soft (black) pads are even worse. If you want something bouncier than the firm pads to get extra feedback, but still maintain low sound levels, I would suggest 50A durometer, 008 size o-rings. Part number: 2418T114 at McMaster-Carr: http://www.mcmaster.com/#as568a-o-rings/
They don't alter the feel of a mechanical keyboard as much as the soft-landing pads do.

A blue keyboard (or a buckling spring for that matter) might indeed help. Another thing to try is software like KeyClick to provide audio feedback via your speakers.

I was using brown switches on a Kinesis ergonomic keyboard, but their vague tactility bothered me, so I switched to a model with super smooth red mx switches. I love them. The browns just felt gritty. The Kinesis Advantage keyboardhas a configurable audible click through a piezo speaker, and that helps avoid bottoming out. If I turn the sound off, I bottom out a whole lot more!

[Ascaii]

I would recommend to go for a higher force switch...the first and foremost goal should be to stop bottoming out. Once that goal is acheived you can look at reducing switch force.
With your current force, you wont bottom out a heavy switch, which will allow you to get used to the feeling of typing only to the actuation point. I personally find it easier changing typing force then "finding" and remembering actuation points.
I would recommend you try clears (tactile) or blacks, if you can live without tactility. When I first got into mechanical boards I had boards with blacks and blues. Originally, I couldnt stand the blues because I kept bottoming out and that felt horrible. I used the blacks for about 3 months and my muscles got used to the heavy black spring. I gradually managed to not bottom out and trained myself to recognize exactly when the linear switches actuated. The lack of tactility really helped me by forcing me to save the exact distance to actuation to my muuscle memory in order to not bottom out.
When I tried my mx blue board again I immediately bottomed out again, but thanks to having gotten used to actuation point typing I managed to adapt to the lesser force in a day. I am now typing on MX browns, my current favorite. I switch around every few weeks with my mx blue Access, 1390133 Model M, Compaq 11802, and my MX-Black g80-1800. By now, switching between boards only requires a short time.

[The Solutor]

I suggest to try the silicone o-ring mod, and/or clear switches, or just stick with a good rubber dome or scissor keyboard

[greyhounds]

I just loaded a program that clicks with each keypress, but it's delayed enough that it just doesn't quite cut it. Sometimes I think it even slows down the keystrokes the computer can read as it can tend to stack them in a buffer then spit them all out.

The shock and pain of bottoming has decreased as I've used the browns - on the UltraX is was almost like small explosions in my knuckles every time I hit a key. I'm pretty confident that this is the right basic track, and I just need to work out the details.

I'm going to grab a blue board today as the Razer BW is available locally, and see how that goes. It's a little heavier than the brown, plus has the click. To get blacks I suppose the 6gv2 is the way to go?

Does anyone have any thoughts on keycap profile? Does every manf use the same curved key top? It seems so sharp edged compared to what I'm used to.

[jpz]

To get blacks I suppose the 6gv2 is the way to go

Keep in mind that black keyswitches dont have any tactile point.  There is always black alps keyswitches which are heavier than browns and are tactile.

[RickyJ]

I find that with my clear switches I rarely bottom out.  The springs aren't light like your browns, but they do work well with the tactile point to keep you from bottoming out.  I got mine here, and so did several others here after I posted the link here.  If you (or someone you know) can solder, you could have the clear switch stems swapped into your Das board to increase the tactility of your nice Das.

[digitaltotem]

P.M.ed the OP, but thought I'd add here for anyone with similar complaints. A Buckling Spring keyboard is really about the best for finger pain. I have EDS as well I have Type II so my small joints are usually not as involved, but I do dislocate my middle and ring fingers on my right hand from time to time. Even with weakened joints I think seeking lower activation force provides minimal improvement if any, when I went to  high activation force on a switch that kept me from bottoming out my finger pain from typing was gone in a matter of days. They might be ugly but Unicomps are a nice yet affordable way for aggressive typists to have happier hands.

[sordna]

Welcome to Geekhack!
How would you compare buckling springs vs blue cherry switches for your condition?

[digitaltotem]

I prefer BS, but it is kind of hard to explain. I'm a fairly quick typist, about 115 wpm assuming a 5 character average word length on Cherry blues. I'm slower on BS about 90-95 wpm with the same 5 character average, because when I get to the actuation point of the BS I relax and let the key lift my finger back into the plane of the other keys this helps reduce my muscle stress and doesn't really slow me down too badly. If I haven't explained it adequately, as it's hard to relate the allowances I have to make for my condition to people that do not have it, just pm me I'm always happy to talk to people who want to know about something most people never hear of.

[False_Dmitry_II]

You could also do the reverse of ergo clear mod with cherry blues. That is, to give the cherry blues heavier springs. I think as far as cherry boards go, that would be the best combination of parts to help not bottom out.

[Wibox]

I always bottomed out until I tried MX Clears. Then when I switched to "Ergo" Clears I also didn't bottom out.. when I went back to trying my MX Blue keyboard again I found that I wasn't bottoming out on them anymore.

[nocturn4l3030]

maybe try to learn to not bottom out on the browns?

coming straight from a rubber dome, browns were the first keyboard I tried and i bottomed out like crazy.. not really using it how it was intended for.

i revisited it again later when i got the gist of how you're "supposed" to type on reds and browns..  and wow.. what a great experience.  you really have to type lightly on that thing to get the full effect of it.. imho

[greyhounds]

I'm afraid that I may never get enough feeling/sensitivity/dexterity back in my hands to allow me to feel the tactile point of the browns. I really don't know.

I plan to pick up an M and a good dome as well and give them a test drive. I'd love to try MX clears as well though. I though I saw some old cop car type cherry black boards on ebay once - that'd be worth a shot as well just to check the feel.

I've read quite a bit about the benefit of being able to let the spring push your finger up for you, instead of having to pull it back on your own like you have to do with low force ekeyboards.

[looserboy]

maybe someone could help me because i dont know the difference between browns and blues.
i know blues and soft blacks i want to buy a brown switch keyboard but i am afraid of the possible tactile blue fleeling wich is stopping my typeflow.

to avoid a problems with resending it, i thought about a brown spring into black switch modding.

[nocturn4l3030]

I'm afraid that I may never get enough feeling/sensitivity/dexterity back in my hands to allow me to feel the tactile point of the browns. I really don't know.

I plan to pick up an M and a good dome as well and give them a test drive. I'd love to try MX clears as well though. I though I saw some old cop car type cherry black boards on ebay once - that'd be worth a shot as well just to check the feel.

I've read quite a bit about the benefit of being able to let the spring push your finger up for you, instead of having to pull it back on your own like you have to do with low force ekeyboards.

 
ah, i think blacks would be a great choice for you then.. they're also the cheapest to find too.  try searching the cherry g80-3000 keyboards.. i believe the ones that you'll actually find in stock will always be blacks.. and their alot cheaper than filco's/leopalds etc

[greyhounds]

I was starting to think that a "good" dome like the ergoforce might work, but the force looks way too high for me, plus it sounds like all domes have to bottom out to work. I like the varied key force concept though, and it sounds like others do as well, but I need lower force on the shift key to minimze the pinky side load.

Maybe I could mod a Cherry black board to put some reds in on the keys that are killing my pinkies, but keep the heavy switched on the main keeys to help against bottoming out. Honestly - the additional 10g or so from the shift key stabilizer on my Das brown is a huge pain (literally).

[sordna]

If bottoming out is the enemy, I wonder if a switch exists that has 6mm of travel (and same 2mm for actuation). That would make it very hard to bottom out while keeping the spring light.
Maybe a cherry switch could be modded to that effect ?

[Ascaii]

If bottoming out is the enemy, I wonder if a switch exists that has 6mm of travel (and same 2mm for actuation). That would make it very hard to bottom out while keeping the spring light.
Maybe a cherry switch could be modded to that effect ?

to be quite honest i have a box of new old stock, obsolete cherry linears with longer key travel...sad part is they only fit modern mx keys after cutting off part of the stem with an exacto knife.