Ringing Filco Majestouch-2 Plus Expanding Polyurethane Foam

[dannyp]

mine rings too, it's worst with the keys in the middle especially jjjkkkkkhhhll;    (space)    jnnnn.

****.

[sordna]

This isn't the best reproduction--I used a Nikon D90 and Youtube. But it's still noticable, albeit pretty quiet. (I included a WhiBal card in honor of Ripster.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N54eusgrtoM

This is very good, thank you Lucas! Also I'm noticing that the ringing noise is much higher pitch that what we've seen so far, this is a high A note, 880Hz. At least you can tune your guitar or violin with it :-)

[Wallach]

Somebody try their Ducky with this arpeggio trick.  Aluminum backplates should dampen this effect more than the steel plate my Kinesis/Filcos have.

Do you know if the Das Keyboard uses steel or aluminum for their plate? I don't believe a Das Keyboard S would reproduce this either.

[sordna]

Ripster, I can get a Kinesis contoured keyboard to ring if I do the arpeggio/strum thing, or if I just knock the side of the keyboard, and there's no metal plate.
So it may or may not be the plate on that Filco. It could simply be the springs, and the higher pitch on the Zero can be explained by the fact that it does not wear Cherry MX switches.

[lucas]

hm.

i'll see if i get used to the sound while typing normally. at first, i was avoiding typing on it because i hated the sound so much.

then if we can land a solid hypothesis, i'll test it on my board.

this was another larz post written on ambien. good night!

[redpill]

Try it.  I bet it's steel on the Das.

My Kinesis keypad is steel and does the same thing so I would think the Das would too if you draw your fingers over the keyboard like that.

My Topre Realforce makes more of a duller sound but still vibrates.  Sort of a washboard sound.

So you've moved on from denying the sound exists to insinuating all keyboards make a similar noise.   You even mentioned a Topre!  Please stop the ridiculous comparisons.

[redpill]

Never said it was the SAME.  Just a difference in DEGREE.

Anyway, I wanted to show Findcanor that indeed I can change and be open minded.

...

After all your BS about the "McGurk Effect", and "sound samples or it didn't happen", and how your Gen 2 Cherry doesn't ring, oh wait then it does, but it's not the switches because the Riporuster doesn't do it, blahblahblah.  You haven't changed because you're still Filco shilling.  If you want to be open minded, why not take what multiple people have to say who have experienced it at face value instead of trying to discredit them.

The question is why is the Filco plate resonating so loudly?  My $100 KBC Poker should not sound better than my $150 Filco.  They can't have designed it that way purposefully, and it's clearly not something that is a widespread issue to this degree or there would be more about it.

[redpill]

Oh and btw I looked it up on the other thread, and I believe it was alaricljs that deserves credit for first making the zany suggestion of expanding foam.

[redpill]

And these are some of the Chemicals I plan on using for Filco Key Testing, plus a few new ones.  Assuming you are not so mad you won't send me the keys.

I'm not mad, just keeping you honest  Keys should be out in a couple days, would have sent them on Friday but things got hectic at the office.

[gimpster]

It would be easy for the manufacturer to add dampening during the manufacturing process of course at relatively small cost.  Even on non-ringing boards I would think it would help provide a more solid sound/feel (cue ripster claiming Filcos are perfect as they are and can't possibly be improved upon).

Maybe some strips of Dynamat. It's primarily used in U.S. for car stereo installations to keep the bodywork from rattling. It's pretty easy to cut up and apply with your hands.

http://www.dynamat.com/

[greyhounds]

I was going to chime in regarding Dynamat as well. We use it in car restoration all the time, but they also apply it to computers etc:
http://www.dynamat.com/products_computers_and_more_introduction.html

It's adhesive backet and relatively thin, so you could cut some strips and add them to the face of the metal plate. I'd expect they'd add enough mass to change the resonant frequency of teh plate and stop the ring.

My das board rings only slightly when I hit it real hard, so whatever they do works about as good as you can hope for.

[lucas]

i have gaffing tape. how would one use it in this case?

[gimpster]

i have gaffing tape. how would one use it in this case?

I would expect that for the Cherry MX keyboards, you'd just cut it into strips and apply it to the face of the metal plate. But if you were talking about Model M's then I'm not sure because I'm not that familiar with how they're designed.

[gimpster]

A paper trimmer would probably be very helpful in making the strips quicker and with a more uniform width.

[The Solutor]

I would expect that for the Cherry MX keyboards, you'd just cut it into strips and apply it to the face of the metal plate. But if you were talking about Model M's then I'm not sure because I'm not that familiar with how they're designed.

 

This will likely helps to dampen the filcos resonating plate but unlikely helps with the pinging switches, btw a self adhesive caoutchouc mousse roll, should be way more effective than the gaffer tape for this purpose.

[morethanless]

Yes I use the black cellular rubber in conjunction with orange sponge rubber to reduce vibrations of HDDs an water pumps. (google for "shoggy sandwich")



EDIT: But I think actually you'd have to dampen the springs of each switch like this


[video=youtube;CJnAbPrmJNA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJnAbPrmJNA[/video]

[redpill]

The plate rings with any vibration, whether it be the springs or knocking on the desk next to it.  So you can try to treat the vibration in the springs in hope that it causes less to be carried to the plate, or you can dampen the metal plate directly so it doesn't ring regardless of the springs/knocking/earthquakes, etc.  Or, both.

But I'm more hesitant to try to modify the switches themselves because it's 1) hard and 2) likely to negatively impact the keyfeel.

[The Solutor]

My Kinesis keypad rings like a bell if I hit the key hard enough.

Since I bought the switches new from Mouser and soldered the plate myself with remarkable skill I am not an adherent to your theory.

 

You know, no theory here, resoldering the switches was tested and retested, btw as I already said likely the led will helpto coupling tightly the switch to the PCB.

The only cheap keyboard I have with just two pin connection per switches is the BW (which is natively not pinging because it's blue) anything else have a led, a diode or a jumper.

[redpill]

My / key rings like a bell.

Keys ping.  Boards ring.  

Good material for a haiku in there I think.

[redpill]

I think ripster ate some bad eggplant parmesan once and has never forgiven Italy.

[sordna]

You know, no theory here, resoldering the switches was tested and retested, btw as I already said likely the led will helpto coupling tightly the switch to the PCB.

 
Soluter, I believe your solution will work for some switches, but for the OPPOSITE reason you are mentioning. A tight coupling increases sound transfer. It's not the switch body that vibrates but the spring inside the switch. Think guitars. the better mounted the bridge, and the higher the bridge height (more force on the soundboard) the louder the sound.

I bet if you desolder the switch (remove all solder so the switch is completely loose), the noise level will go down.

[The Solutor]

I think ripster ate some bad eggplant parmesan once and has never forgiven Italy.

 
He just suffers of what we call "the two cock on one hen-house syndrome", likely sounds bad in english, but I'm sure you got the point.

[sordna]

There are some cool iPhone/iPad apps like Audio Tool / AudioTools with SPL meters and sound frequency generators. Not the most accurate but very handy.

[The Solutor]

Think guitars.

 

On guitars is not the whole string that is coupled with the resonance chamber, and materials are calculated to resonate.

Think to the one or two euro coins instead.

[sordna]

On the euro coins, the metals ARE the sound source. On keyboards, the possible sound sources are the springs and the plate. The other components (switch shells and PCB) act as coupling materials. In any case, theories don't matter so much as long as the solution works. Anyway, resoldering is a good solution for an isolated switch, and the foam is good if the entire keyboard has a pinging problem.

Ripster, you mentioned earlier that you don't have a pinging switch issue before to try the soldering on. Now that you discovered your "/" numpad key, can you please try resoldering it and provide before/after sound samples ?

[redpill]

the foam is good if the entire keyboard has a pinging problem

I don't know if I'd call it good, but it was effective in reducing the noise and making a mess.  I'd be interested to see if people have success with less messy/permanent foam and/or alternative solutions like padding on top of the metal plate.

[The Solutor]

On the euro coins, the metals ARE the sound source. On keyboards, the possible sound sources are the springs and the plate.

I can speak for the switch not for the whole plate, because I don't have the problem.

BTW I'm sure that my plate is not resonating like on filcos because the plate doesn't have any clearance with the switch border with a tightly soldered switch I mean.

Looks like on filcos the plate is placed slightly in lower position, so I can't say if a resolderd switch makes any difference for the plate ring. And buying a filco just to test this is out of discussion altough I'm used to test in first person what I'm saying.

Back to the filco problem, I'm sure that any usual dampening method will work, from the rubber foam to the dampening paint (the one used on the underside of the cars).

I used the latter for ages to improve the sound of my line of acoustic boxes, when i was used to build and sell them.

[sordna]

I was gonna suggest soldering the switch while squeezing it or pulling it, so it creates different tension on the metal plate. It's not the actual solder points that matter IMO.

[The Solutor]

It's not the actual solder points that matter IMO.

 
Obviously is not.

On every keyboard I tried when the soldering points were melt the switch made a definite "tock" and made a little travel in the PCB direction.

[The Solutor]

This is getting complicated.  I don't think the robo picking machines do any of that stuff on anybody's keyboards.  Dump it on the plate/PCB and run through the wave soldering machine.

Exactly.

Is what I'm saying in the last month.

Glad you finally realized it.

[The Solutor]

From this piece of factual data you concluded it was a Filco manufacturing problem.

 

I concluded that any industrial process can't be good as a relatively expert hobbyist's hand.

Likely filco has greater problems because the larger tolerances, that's all.

[keyboardlover]

Are you guys still arguing about this?

Talk about the ping heard round the world...

[redpill]

Couldn't handle the EK soft landing pads, they kill the switchfeel too much.  Mushy.

[sordna]

This is getting complicated.  I don't think the robo picking machines do any of that stuff on anybody's keyboards.  Dump it on the plate/PCB and run through the wave soldering machine.

 
Yes, that's why artificially creating some tension/pressure on the metal plate, may have a dampening effect.

[sordna]

Couldn't handle the EK soft landing pads, they kill the switchfeel too much.  Mushy.

I did the same. I couldn't stand the black pads, but gave the gray ones a few weeks, and finally removed them last Friday. Dental-bands didn't do it for me either. The medium-soft o-rings are much better though, they are almost perfect, it's incredible that the cheapest/easiest solution happened to be the best... once you find the right o-ring part number that is! I spent almost $80 trying out various alternatives :-)

[morethanless]

Which shore number or rubber type?
Is NBR70 ok?
http://www.hug-technik.com/shop/product_info.php?info=p2357_praezisions-o-ring---5-50-x-2-00-mm--nbr70.html

[sordna]

Which shore number or rubber type?
Is NBR70 ok?
http://www.hug-technik.com/shop/product_info.php?info=p2357_praezisions-o-ring---5-50-x-2-00-mm--nbr70.html

Nope, shore 70A is too hard. 40-50 is perfect, material doesn't really matter since you're not sealing any fluids in your keyboard. Rubber/silicone/neoprene should all work. The o-rings you pointed to are too big however, they are metric 5.5mm x 2mm. For metric, you want 5mm x 1.5mm.

See comments near the end of the relevant thread: http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:5450

[morethanless]

Thank you. But finding shore 40-50 seems impossible in german online shops.
They only have shore 70.

[The Solutor]

If true the OCN trick of baking your graphics cards may work by relieving stress points on the steel plate.

Or maybe not.

 
Is not an OCN trick and often works,  go back to the lead free soldering alloy post, to understand why...

[lucas]

can someone link me to a threads that tell me how to open a filco tkl and how to pull fukka caps? i can only search every 30 seconds

i'll void my warranty on my overly-expensive board

[sordna]

can someone link me to a threads that tell me how to open a filco tkl and how to pull fukka caps? i can only search every 30 seconds

search engine sucks, you can't even search for "pads" (complains it's too short) you have to search for "landing" instead. iMaaaaaaaaaaaaav can you at least allow 4 character words?

Anyway, you can ask google to search geekhack for you, for example:

TKL site:geekhack.org

[redpill]

The problem is you are searching for "TKL".

I wrote it up using "Tenkeyless".

In fact the Vbulletin search engine kinda sucks so "TKL" is too short.

Vbulletin search sucks anyway, you'll never find much.  Need to use google: "TKL site:www.geekhack.org"

I think I'll open up a "Mod Your Kinesis Keypad To Stop Ringing" post tomorrow.

But it will be in the Mods subforum.

 
I got a mostly-full can of expanding insulation foam I can sell you for cheap!

[MissileMike]

Here is typing on a Ducky 1087.  Do you hear a ping?

[video=youtube;saUOK60t5Tg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saUOK60t5Tg[/video]

[redpill]

Here is typing on a Ducky 1087.  Do you hear a ping?

I hear springs, but I don't hear a plate ring.  Do you hear one in person?

[alaricljs]

I hear the normal Cherry MX spring ping if I crank the volume.  I haven't heard a single ringing Filco sample yet, since that's what all the complaining is about how come no one has recorded it?

[morethanless]

If I put up the volume high I can hear the springs.
Especially when you come closer at the end.

But on my normal volume level I can only hear the plastic keycaps

[redpill]

I hear the normal Cherry MX spring ping if I crank the volume.  I haven't heard a single ringing Filco sample yet, since that's what all the complaining is about how come no one has recorded it?

I recorded it, link in sig, but doesn't come across very well due to iphone microphone.

[keyboardlover]

If I put my ear up to my kalrykh-krusted shorts I can definitely hear ringing.



I plan to consult a doctor.

[alaricljs]

Yeah, there's a bit of sustain there but again I had to crank the volume to get much of it.  The way certain other users were describing it I was expecting something more obtrusive and painful.

[redpill]

Yeah, there's a bit of sustain there but again I had to crank the volume to get much of it.  The way certain other users were describing it I was expecting something more obtrusive and painful.

Well it's not something that happens loudly on every board, so if yours doesn't do it, that's a good thing