Can anyone explain...

[MrCynical]

...why the Realforce Topres are cheaper than the Happy Hacker Pro 2?

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=pfu_keyboards,hhkbpro2
These are all 275 each

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,realforce
These are all 245 each

What the deal? And why do Topres cost more than Cherries? Are they noticeably better?

[The Solutor]

...why the Realforce Topres are cheaper than the Happy Hacker Pro 2?

When the price is completely unrelated to the production costs, the final price can be whatever the end user is supposed to pay.

[Findecanor]

Cost of materials per item is often not a large part of the price of an item these days. There is often a huge single cost, regardless of how many are produced. The cost of development can be high. The manufacturing location (china, elsewhere in the far east or in the western world) is significant.
In general, lower volume => higher price. Higher volume => lower price.

[The Solutor]

Cost of materials per item is often not a large part of the price of an item these days.

I think that in, cherry  and alp boards, is still a large part, as switches aren't cheap, and the keyboards requires costly robotic placement machines or must be assembled by hand, which is costly too.
 

In general, lower volume => higher price. Higher volume => lower price.

This is obviously true.

But when we speak about luxury product, the price is functional to made the product a luxury one..

I'm sure that if the topre boards were sold at the correct price, say 40/50 $, no one will buy one

[RiGS]

That's because the HHKB Pro 2 is sold by a different company (PFU). I guess they have to pay extra to Topre.

[RiGS]

I'm sure that if the topre boards were sold at the correct price, say 40/50 $, no one will buy one

 
Have you ever touched one?

[The Solutor]

Have you ever touched one?

 

What has to do the likings with the production cost ?

If I'm saying "I don't like it" ask if I touched one, I never said that.

If I'm sayng that the cost is unrelated to the production cost, ask if I have idea of the industrial processes, the components cost and so on. And yes I have it

[gilgam]

I'm sure that if the topre boards were sold at the correct price, say 40/50 $, no one will buy one

There is indeed a luxury/"costs a lot must be nice" factor

But if topre costs 50$ i think they will sell much much more. But i'm not sure they will earn as much money....

[cactux]

Also it plays an important role the demand and offer. Maybe I wrong but the HHKB sales better than the Realforce so they can speculate with the price

[The Solutor]

But if topre costs 50$ i think they will sell much much more. But i'm not sure they will earn as much money....

 
Exactly, I think their manager have carefully evaluated the options, ant they decided for the best from their point of view.

Also it plays an important role the demand and offer. Maybe I wrong but the HHKB sales better than the Realforce so the can speculate with the price

Also correct, the HHKB has the geek factor added to the luxury factor

[MsKeyboard]

That's because the HHKB Pro 2 is sold by a different company (PFU). I guess they have to pay extra to Topre.

 
Topre is the manufacturer, and PFU is the owner of HHKB Pro2.  While both keyboard sport the same technology, they are in essence owned by different companies.

Later........

[RiGS]

Topre is the manufacturer, and PFU is the owner of HHKB Pro2.  While both keyboard sport the same technology, they are in essence owned by different companies.

Later........

 
I think this is what I said.

PFU has to pay Topre for the keyboards. On the other hand Topre is the manufacturer & owner of the Realforce, so there is no middleman.

[The Solutor]

PFU has to pay Topre for the keyboards

Not sure about their deals but I think PFU have to pay Topre some IP, usually this is a big amount of money if the whole amount of the production is taken in account, but means few $ per unit.

Just for example Philips and Sony collected half $ for each CDrom player, while for each DVD player sold, the royalties payed to various companies are on the range of 5-20$

[mmmty]

Do Filco, Das, and other companies that use Cherry switches have to pay IP for Cherry in Germany? That would be a lot of $$$$. There are more Cherry keyboards than Topre.

[alaricljs]

No, Cherry just sells the switches as a commodity.

[Findecanor]

Topre does not have individual switches in the same way as Cherry or ALPS. They are in essence rubber dome keyboards with extra springs.

[The Solutor]

Do Filco, Das, and other companies that use Cherry switches have to pay IP for Cherry in Germany?

 
They should if they wanted to build their own switches, but AFAIK they just buy the finished component from cherry.

[mmmty]

So PFU makes their own Topre switches. Why don't they just buy the switches from Topre? Whose Topre switch is better??

[The Solutor]

So PFU makes their own Topre switches. Why don't they just buy the switches from Topre? Whose Topre switch is better??

 
There are no switches on topre boards, it's just a PCB with traces that acts a capacitors and a rubber dome membrane coupled with some conical springs meant to alter the capacity between the printed electrodes. All the analogical signaling is managed by a specific controller, which is likely the part what required more refinement to be reliable.

Any couple of insulated wires can act as capacitive sensors if coupled with the correct controller.

[mmmty]

Now it makes sense that PFU is paying for the IP - thanks!!

[The Solutor]

Now it makes sense that PFU is paying for the IP - thanks!!

 
As I said this is just my guess, but I find very unlikely that PFU is paying for other than IPs.

[MsKeyboard]

There is no "ip", PFU purchases a finished product from the manufacturer and then broadcasts them on their own distribution chain. Just like most products today, and keyboard and mice are no different, there are only so many manufacturers.  Most products are made by a common manufacturer then sold to the "owner" who then places their name and packaging on said product, and it is not uncommon for an "owner" to use more than one manufacturer for their product line.

Sometimes it is just best to find a product you like and quit worrying about who's name is on the label, because you might be surprised who really produced that product and how much a name/badge costs.

Later............

[elitekeyboards]

It's no secret that HHKBs are made by Topre. You can open one up and see that the PCB says Topre.

The reason for HHKBs costing more than Realforce is a function of the fact that PFU is a middleman between Topre and distributors and the fact that the HHKB does not have any competition in the market.

The reasons these boards cost a lot to begin with is generally apparent to those people who actually OWN one; as the quality usually speaks for itself:) However, if one does not own one or they are still skeptical, then they might consider the fact that it is made in a country with a relatively high standard of living, and that a higher level of quality control and materials goes into every board than the norm coming out of other factories. Every board is electrically, mechanically, and visually tested, 2+ times, at least once by a human and once by a robot (custom designed robots I might add!). Also, the quality of plastics, pcb material, and dye-sub printing process come into play, as well as assembly and construction that requires more time and attention than that of a typical Cherry or ALPS board; i.e. every Topre switch has a spring in it that must be carefully inserted into each switch, and the construction of these boards use 25+ screws in some models.

I know this all sounds like sales spin, but all this effort results in a product with reliability much higher than the norm for the keyboard market.

So much for my lunch break!

[The Solutor]

There is no "ip", PFU purchases a finished product from the manufacturer and then broadcasts them on their own distribution chain.

Ok, thanks for the clarification.

The reason for HHKBs costing more than Realforce is a function of the fact that PFU is a middleman between Topre and distributors

This could mean something but we have to take in account that usually a large contractor have way better prices than a small one.

and the fact that the HHKB does not have any competition in the market.

This, instead explain a lot.

The reasons these boards cost a lot to begin with is generally apparent to those people who actually OWN one; as the quality usually speaks for itself:)

No one as ever questioned the topre quality, but we have all to remember that the cheapest rubber dome cost something like 2.5$ and a very high quality one hardly sells above 50$.

Theres nothing other the monopoly and the luxury position that could ever justify the topre's prices. Even a Ferrari doesn't cost 100x the price of the cheapest car available.

[ch_123]

The same Topre switch is used in the HHKB as the Realforce. The HHKB's PCB is stamped with the Topre logo. Some reckon that the Realforces are nicer to type on due to the presence of a backplate. I doubt the difference is that significant.

As for the greedy capitalists at Topre, and the humble socialists at Cherry - TVS in India sell a Blue Cherry keyboard that costs the equivalent of $30 from retail. Sure the likes of the Leopold or Filco have higher build quality (apparently later TVS boards don't have some of the hideous quality issues of older models), but not necessarily 4-5 times the quality.

That's before we consider Cherry's own boards, which aren't exactly the sturdiest keyboards ever made...

[elitekeyboards]

Theres nothing other the monopoly and the luxury position that could ever justify the topre's prices. Even a Ferrari doesn't cost 100x the price of the cheapest car available.

You didn't read 90% of what I said, did you? The price is very well justified. No one at Topre (nor EK) is driving a Lamborghini.

I don't mean to sound lofty, but at some point here...sleeping Westerners might want to realize they shouldn't take the low cost of labor in developing countries for granted; lest they slip under a veil of middle-class'dness such that the distance between themselves and politicians/rich grows to the point necessitating revolution...

[The Solutor]

You didn't read 90% of what I said, did you?

I read, but happen that I'm well introduced in the industrial  processes, and I'm able to evaluate by myself how many hours/man are needed to build something.

And while a microswitch keyboard could need a time way longer than a rubber dome kb, a topre does not. Surely does not.

As I said here try to dismantle piece by piece an average RD, a microswitch KB and a Topre and reassembe them, and tell me how much time you spent in each operation.

I'm not here to pop bubbles nor to bash anything, nor to ridiculize who like topres, but at the same time I can't accept as facts, marketing words that are clearly exaggerated.

Obviously you are true when you say that in japan the workmanship cost is (now) not too different form the one of most western countries, but this is still not nearly enough to explain an end price of this level.

BTW even if relatively exaggerated, the keyboard hobby is still cheap if considered in absolute sense, almost any other tech hobby is way more expensive, so I can't say anything against people who like Topres, Filcos, Leopolds whatever, If they like the products and consider the price correct, are in the right way by definition.

[elitekeyboards]

I read, but happen that I'm well introduced in the industrial  processes, and I'm able to evaluate by myself how many hours/man are needed to build something.

And while a microswitch keyboard could need a time way longer than a rubber dome kb, a topre does not. Surely does not.

It still doesn't appear you read most of what I said.

Surely Shirly, it DOES.

I'm not here to pop bubbles nor to bash anything, nor to ridiculize who like topres, but at the same time I can't accept as facts, marketing words that are clearly exaggerated.

Obviously you are true when you say that in japan the workmanship cost is (now) not too different form the one of most western countries, but this is still not nearly enough to explain an end price of this level.

BTW even if relatively exaggerated, the keyboard hobby is still cheap if considered in absolute sense, almost any other tech hobby is way more expensive, so I can't say anything against people who like Topres, Filcos, Leopolds whatever, If they like the products and consider the price correct, are in the right way by definition.

No, you're clearly here to speak, tirelessly, without experience. Not only do you appear to not have an understanding of the Japanese economy and manufacturing capabilities, but by all accounts, you do not even own a Topre! So you have no idea what you speak of when you criticize the cost of construction and assembly time.

[keyboardlover]

He's also #2 in the troll poll.

Ripster's holding firm at #1.

[RiGS]

He's also #2 in the troll poll.

Ripster's holding firm at #1.

 You are the one who has no contribution to this thread. You just came here to pit others against Solutor.
What a coward!

[HaiiYaa]

You are the one who has no contribution to this thread. You just came here to pit others against Solutor.
What a coward!

 
And you just came here to pit against keyboardlover

[eyesnine]

...Or why tenkeyless Realforce keyboards are more expensive than full sized Realforce keyboards?

The manufacturer probably does significantly smaller runs of the tenkeyless, HHKBs, etc.

So, they end up costing more, since the set up cost is split over fewer keyboards.

I feel your pain, though. It is hard to spend more money on a smaller keyboard with less keys.

[keyboardlover]

I leave RiGS out of the troll poll for good behavior, and this is the thanks I get. He hasn't trolled like this in months!

[RiGS]

And you just came here to pit against keyboardlover

 
Partly. Btw rtft.

[The Solutor]

It still doesn't appear you read most of what I said.

 

No looks like YOU haven't read/understood what I said, and I don't think that my broken English is the culprit.

No, you're clearly here to speak, tirelessly, without experience.

Just FYI I'm on IT since 1982 as hobby and since 1998 as my main job. Before '98 I worked in almost any area of electronics, from audio with a line of High End acoustic box built and projected by me,to digital where I built and designed a uniquely designed interface for ZX spectrum in 1982, to communications when I made the first completely automated power pland via cell phone, in Italy. I cooperated to the design of a robotized assembly line for a multinational/american corporation, here in Italy, I had my part also in an UFO construction, really , and I can continue for a whole day, but I don't want to be boring.

So who is inexperienced ?

you do not even own a Topre!

Indeed.

I preferred to spend a similar amount of money to mod some keyboards to fit my needs, now I have a couple of keyboards that are surely unique models, by features and by tactile feeling.

And personally (i repeat personally) I don't mind to spend 200+$ for a keyboard that has not more than a well built rubber dome to offer.

BTW what I missed ? What is the Topre's feature so hard to understand ?

They are well built keyboards, they have a unique feeling, they are likely unbreakable.

And then ?  Is this sufficient to justify their cost ? IMO absolutely not, for other people yes, other ones simply doesn't ask and likely the vast majority buy tham purposely because costly, as happen in almost any marketing area.

They are all fine, but my choice is fine too, and like it or not, has nothing to do whit the question asked in the first post.

[MrCynical]

Alright, new question then... If I already have a Ducky MX Blue keyboard, a Zowie Celeritas, a Steelseries 6GV2, a Blackwidow, and 2 Das keyboards, would it be worth it to buy a full size Realforce Topre keyboard? What is it like typing on it compared to a MX Blue? (favorite typing switch <3) What is it like playing SC2 on it compared to a MX Brown? (my favorite Starcraft switch)

[HaveANiceDay]

I like my Filco more than my Realforce.
In my opinion, you don't miss out on anything special by not owning a Topre "switch" keyboard.

[Chobopants]

Topres are nice but my Filco Brown takes the cake as my go to board. As I've said many times, if I could keep any board it'd be this one, which is funny since it was the first one I bought.

[The Solutor]

Thanks HaveANiceDay and Chobopants.

Btw I'll be curious to see a blind test, like the ones meant to test good wines or just coke v.s. pepsi, and see what the people would like between a god RD, a topre, and some other good boards.

I sure the results could give more than a surprise.

[nhwhaup]

Thanks HaveANiceDay and Chobopants.

Btw I'll be curious to see a blind test, like the ones meant to test good wines or just coke v.s. pepsi, and see what the people would like between a god RD, a topre, and some other good boards.


I sure the results could give more than a surprise.

Man, I'm sure I could pick out my reds.  Like the topres but really love the reds.

[The Solutor]

Lol@the solutor.  Someone get this kid a shoe contract.  Surely with his vast knowledge and experience he could be a superstar.

 
Arguing w/o having nothing to say is always a nice task, isn't it ?

[ch_123]

Alright, new question then... If I already have a Ducky MX Blue keyboard, a Zowie Celeritas, a Steelseries 6GV2, a Blackwidow, and 2 Das keyboards, would it be worth it to buy a full size Realforce Topre keyboard? What is it like typing on it compared to a MX Blue? (favorite typing switch <3) What is it like playing SC2 on it compared to a MX Brown? (my favorite Starcraft switch)

 
They're quite different. The Topres are lower force, and less tactile. They feel far more smooth than the Blue Cherry. I actually prefer the Topres over the Blue Cherry, but this is probably because I prefer the buckling spring in regards to clicky switches.

[Chobopants]

They're quite different. The Topres are lower force, and less tactile. They feel far more smooth than the Blue Cherry. I actually prefer the Topres over the Blue Cherry, but this is probably because I prefer the buckling spring in regards to clicky switches.

I actually like my Topre more than my Blue as well. The noise of Blues actually bother me as a typist after a while. I much prefer the gentle steady clacking of red/brown.

[The Solutor]

I actually like my Topre more than my Blue as well. The noise of Blues actually bother me as a typist after a while. I much prefer the gentle steady clacking of red/brown.

 
Basically I totally agree with your rating for the currently available cherry switches, btw I hope you will have a chance to test an ergo clear board, I'm sure your ratings will be revised as happened to mine.

[Chobopants]

Basically I totally agree with your rating for the currently available cherry switches, btw I hope you will have a chance to test an ergo clear board, I'm sure your ratings will be revised as happened to mine.

Yeah, the number of people who swear by their ergo clears must mean something. Definitely something on my list to check out.

[daerid]

Topres are nice but my Filco Brown takes the cake as my go to board. As I've said many times, if I could keep any board it'd be this one, which is funny since it was the first one I bought.

 
I agree. I'd get rid of every board if I have to, except my tenkeyless brown. I'm gonna be buried with that thing. Which is funny, because it's the board I use the least at the moment.

[Chobopants]

I agree. I'd get rid of every board if I have to, except my tenkeyless brown. I'm gonna be buried with that thing. Which is funny, because it's the board I use the least at the moment.

Yeah, it's just so damn reliable and middle of the road. All of my other boards have unique characteristics/flaws that make them unique but also give them shortcomings. The brown is just so damn jack of all trades that it's invaluable as a daily driver.

[The Solutor]

I wasn't arguing.  I was laughing at you.  

 
Ok, maybe I misunderstood due to the general tone of the latest days, sorry

Then again, arguing only because you think your opinion is superior, regardless of what the truth might be, tends to be quite pointless.

Sorry again, but to me looks pretty obvious that I share my opinion only on matters where I think I'm right, are you used to do it when you think you are wrong ?

[Mazora]

The Solutor: do you like topre or what ? Sometimes you sound like you do, other times you dont.
just wondering?

I love the fact that topre have dye sub keycaps. It cost alot to put dye sub keycaps on modern cherry-mx keyboards...

[The Solutor]

The Solutor: do you like topre or what ? Sometimes you sound like you do, other times you dont.
just wondering?

 
This happen when you read messages from non biased people.

Happen rarely nowadays, but happen.

BTW I don't think my opinion is so  hard to understand, they are good keyboards, they are well built, they are likely durable as model M.

But their cost is completely unrelated with their construction and their improvement over a good rubber dome keyboard,  on the typing pleasure side, is also too little to made worth the price delta (even a justified one, by a costly build process).

Usually you don't buy a Mazda RX-8 just because the wankel engine, you buy it if you find the price worth considering the whole car. I apply this metric to keyboards, mice and other tech items.