Realforce or HHKB

[kinkng]

Hi, I suddenly have the urge to try a Topre switch and can't decide between the realforce (tenkeyless) and HHKB. I like the HHKB because of it's smaller size which makes it easier for me to carry around in my laptop bag but the realforce seems to look better.

In terms of quality, are both of them pretty much equivalent? Also, I am not sure if coming from Buckling Springs, would I like the feel. I tried Cherry blues (Filco and Noppoo) but have reverted back to my IBM for my daily driver. The blues feel ok but I like the BS more.

I would prefer the black version except that the black ones that elite keyboard sells have very light lettering so it's hard to read the keys (I'm not a good touch typist).

Thanks for any insight that fellow members can provide.

[AndrewZorn]

The Realforce use plate-mounted switches, the extra weight and firmness from that usually make people say the Realforce feels of higher quality.

[theferenc]

You know, I see this question a lot. I think the RealForce is heavier and sturdier feeling, but just ask yourself this: which layout do you prefer? The HHKB uses a UNIX style layout, based on the Sun Type 3 (and many others, but the Sun is cited). The RealForce is ANSI.

Personally, the RF isn't an option for me, as I don't like the ANSI layout, and all of my keybaords are in the UNIX layout. For most people, it's the other way.

Answer the layout question, and you'll answer your own question as well.

Hope that helps!

[Chobopants]

You know, I see this question a lot. I think the RealForce is heavier and sturdier feeling, but just ask yourself this: which layout do you prefer? The HHKB uses a UNIX style layout, based on the Sun Type 3 (and many others, but the Sun is cited). The RealForce is ANSI.

Personally, the RF isn't an option for me, as I don't like the ANSI layout, and all of my keybaords are in the UNIX layout. For most people, it's the other way.

Answer the layout question, and you'll answer your own question as well.

Hope that helps!

Ya, layout preferences matters WAY more than feel here. besides the Topre switches the keyboards have nothing in common. Decide how you want your keys laid out before anything else.

[Zhuni]

I was asking this same question a month back and these guys in this thread chimed in with the same.

After trying a HHKB it was the clear winner for me. The 2 major things that swung it for me was just what a difference the small foot print made. Not just for typing but when I play FPS games (that all I play) I use around 30-40cm/360 meaning I use a huge mouse mat. And this keyboard size fits that perfectly.

The other was I wasnt too sure about the layout but I love it and its one of the boards major plus points. Yes the realforce is better built but its much of a muchness given how both board are well built.

As for the black on black letters if you buy it you have no choice but to become better and trust me you will. Grab the HHKB you will love it! also the re-sale is so high its barely even a risk..

[bdpq]

Once you pass the learning curve of adapting to the HHKB layout, it can be hard to go back to the regular PC/AT layout if you use the control key often.  Zhuni is right, the resale value is really high on HHKB but the tenkeyless Realforce is also well sought after.  An all 55g Realforce87U went up to $450 on ebay couple weeks ago.

[AndrewZorn]

Caps is very easily remapped to Control in Windows, and the setting will allow you to use 'normal' keyboards just like a HHKB without interference (unless you actually use Caps).

Things like the placement of Delete/Backspace, however, are not easily remapped... and if you do, you'll be switching it back and forth when changing keyboards.

[theferenc]

Yeah, the backspace thing is the real problem using ANSI layout keyboards.

You get this a lot: \\\\\\\\\\

[flaming_june]

Never had that problem once.  But I can see how that may happen.

[daerid]

Ya know, I've never once hit the \ key instead of backspace.

[jayfinger]

Caps is very easily remapped to Control in Windows, and the setting will allow you to use 'normal' keyboards just like a HHKB without interference (unless you actually use Caps).

Things like the placement of Delete/Backspace, however, are not easily remapped... and if you do, you'll be switching it back and forth when changing keyboards.

The Windows registry hack that swaps ctrl/capslock works just as well for delete/backspace, or any other keys.

I think the same thing goes in Linux, only you're messing with xmodmap instead of the registry.

[theferenc]

I'm talking about getting used to the UNIX layout on the HHKB, and then having to use ANSI, not the other way around. Coming back to ANSI, what was backspace is now backslash.

And remapping doesn't work when it's a different physical layout. This is something that people just don't seem to get, for whatever reason. Where backspace is on ANSI, UNIX has 2 physical keys there, instead. No matter how you remap, you can't turn one key into 2 keys on the same layer.

[JustCallMeCrash]

Sorry.. noob questions abound.  I'm googling around trying to find images of these UNIX and ANSI layouts... ?

[Daniel Beaver]

Sorry.. noob questions abound.  I'm googling around trying to find images of these UNIX and ANSI layouts... ?

ANSI is the standard US layout:




The "UNIX Layout" is the same as ANSI, but with the Caps Lock and Control keys swapped. It was the layout used in old Sun keyboards, and a lot of the Bearded prefer it. There are other differences as well (can you spot them all?)





For reference, most non-US countries use the ISO layout:

[theferenc]

There are more differences than just caps and control being swapped. But the image captures it fairly well. Notice that ESC is next to the 1 key, the place where backspace normally is now has two keys: \|, `~ (from left to right), where backslash normally lives is backspace.

Also, for whatever it's worth, it's 1 more key than the corresponding ANSI layout. A 101 key ANSI would normally be a 102 key UNIX. Where the ESC normally is located, you have a "dead" key, that is often system dependantly mapped.

Also, on the older UNIX full keyboards, it's quite common to have a + arrow arrangement, and an extra key around the numpad, with + no longer being 2 keys tall, similar to the 122 key terminal keyboards.

Edit: If you want to see full keyboards in that layout, look for "Sun Type #", where # is a number from 3-6. The Type 7 has both UNIX and ANSI layouts available, which is why I left that out.

Edit 2: See, why did you have to go editing your post after I typed this all up?

[Daniel Beaver]

The HHKB apes the Type 3 in specific, correct?

[theferenc]

The HHKB apes the Type 3 in specific, correct?

That was the keyboard that was used as the original design, yes. In the main block, the Type 3, 4, 5, and 6 are all the same though, with the exception that optionally you could have swapped Meta and Alt keys on the Type 6. The main differences were F keys, the addition of the editing keys to the left, the eventual move to the inverted T arrow arrangement, + moving to be 2 keys tall, and the protocol change from "Sun" to USB.

The Sun keyboards had connectors that were phsyically compatible with PS/2, but a different protocol, which was even wonkier than PS/2. This provided much frustration to people moving from Solaris to Linux, as they could plug their keyboards in, but otherwise couldn't use them. Once they switched to USB keyboards, they were interchangeable with every other USB keyboard on the market, basically.

[JustCallMeCrash]

Wow, you guys are a wealth of knowledge.  I see lots of differences in the UNIX... while I am a full-time Linux user, typing on Dvorak Simplified, I think I'd have a hard time getting used to the CTRL key all the way up there... I avoid the CAPSLOCK key like the plague (i didn't even use it in this post), it's one of the reasons I looked seriously at learning Colmak instead.  Anyway, I feel enlightened.  Also, I hate that Enter key on ISO; though now that Unicomp Teminal Emulator board makes more sense with the empty button. http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19639-eBay-US-Unicomp-Terminal-Emulator-32-shipped!&p=376236#post376236

[theferenc]

Oh, on the terminal boards, you just bolt mod and swap the ISO for ANSI enter. Then all is right with the world.