Dang... peroxide DOES burn

[The Solutor]

You spelled RetrObrite wrong.

If were just for retrobright I was more than happy.

Sooner or later I need to reach S.Francisco and have an English full immersion arguing endlessly with you

[The Solutor]

RetrObright isn't an English word.

If we want to split the hair, my mistake was not a spelling error but just a typo...

[Input Nirvana]

I am using a generic brand of OxyClean (from Target) it does not have blue granules that Oxy Clean has in it, it's all white.

[Oqsy]

OxiClean's website has a FAQ. They say 6 hrs after mixing with water, then it is spent.

[litster]

Just as a reference, my can of oxyclean was very old (at least a few years, if not 10 years old).  It was chunky and stuck together as a solid block.  I think that means some water was mixed into it at some point.  I had to use a knife to stab the whole can of oxyclean loose in order to get it out.  It did work as my pictures showed.  But I had to use a lot of it.

[Input Nirvana]

So basically after the first several hours, I've been soaking the parts for 3 days in soapy water. Lol

**** that's funny.

[Input Nirvana]

Sooner or later I need to reach S.Francisco and have an English full immersion arguing endlessly with you

Come on down! I live next to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey.

[TexasFlood]

OxiClean's website has a FAQ. They say 6 hrs after mixing with water, then it is spent.

So basically after the first several hours, I've been soaking the parts for 3 days in soapy water. Lol

**** that's funny.

Hah.  Good to know, didn't even think to look there.  I've got some keyboards that could certainly benefit from this, Dell w/ pink alps and a Northgate come to mind.

[Input Nirvana]

Couple more questions:

1-Sun exposure, A) is it needed, or B) it just helps or C) has no effect?
2-Concentration (mix ratio with water) A) as directed or B) a higher concentration? At 16x the highest recommended mix, it sucked out some of the blue pigment in my blue keycaps.

[The Solutor]

Come on down! I live next to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey.

Defense against who ?

Me or Noodle256 ? :happy:

[The Solutor]

Couple more questions:

1-Sun exposure, A) is it needed, or B) it just helps or C) has no effect?

I'm not sure, likely sun has some effect on some fluorescent components added to the  Oxyclean formula, has happen in any laundry detergen, to made the white "more white"

But this requires the the sun when the work is finished, not during the process.

[The Solutor]

The Solutor.  I don't think you've been following the science here.

What part of "I'm not sure" and "likely" you missed ?

BTW is not with a generic chemical reaction that you can explain what happen here.

[Input Nirvana]

Use those lights for my aquarium set ups. Very expensive.

[Input Nirvana]

Wait, these guys might have been legit?

Every wonder why I know so much about nickel weights?

Seriously, when you get on a roll, it can be a great ride. Not dull.

[Input Nirvana]

Sun/UV is needed, direct and fairly strong (not foggy/overcast/early-late day).

Concentration minimums....I suppose is relative to the job at hand. I used 10x recommended for case in full sun with perfect results. I used 16x recommended for keycaps in jars in almost full sun, some keycaps obscured from full sunlight due to being bunched up in jar. Seems like sun was more important than the concentration, but then again, I didn't know exactly what I was doing at the time, or how it all worked together. My guess now is that a concentration of 10x OR LESS is adequate. (Hear that Stumpy...Litster...) And this is without hydrogen peroxide. But, this is not a paste, which has a valuable use as well. I want to use paste on the bottom half of the cases so the 2 labels (one is paper, one is plastic) don't get damaged or removed.

I have 2 cases left to try. Maybe try one at the max recommended ratio first, and build up from there.

[The Solutor]

Experience Trumps Theory.

Often.

Btw I've never used sun when whitening something and it always worked as expected.

The inside of a washing machine is also known as a dark place.

And I'm still waiting for a theoretical explanation about the sunlight in this process.

[The Solutor]

Washing machine as an analogy?

What analogy?

Oxyclean is meant to work there, and no UV radiation is involved. Period.

Use the analogies when facts are lacking or vague, not when

Is those one of those Italian Logic things?

I'm more worried about good v.s. bad logic, more than Italian v.s. American.

[Oqsy]

I have no idea who is arguing what here anymore

I have a new tub of magic powder, and I plan on trying a no peroxide mix on the Northgate case. They really yellow up to a gross color, but nothing like Rips SGI or Apple.  I will see if I can replicate the results of the Contour case with 10x OxiClean and no peroxide with a few hours in the sun. Stay tuned...

[Input Nirvana]

DO IT BRUTHA!!!!

To reiterate, I'm suspecting a lower concentration may be just as effective. I mention this:

1- to attempt to prevent possible damage to colored keys (like my blue keycaps)
2- for the pure facts of the matter
3- for economics

Remember, you can always treat again, or increase the concentration. Don't damage anything, you can't undo it. I did my Contour case at 10x max recommended which turns out to be 1 scoop per gallon.

[Oqsy]

Ah yes, 10x. Fixed.

Soak began at 8:30a CST.
4 scoops to 4 gallons (the only tub I had big enough was WAY too big, so I had to use extra water just to get the level above the top of the case, these could easily be soaked in 2 gallons or so in a "just right" sized container.
ZERO hydrogen peroxide added.
Sun is full, and is forecast to be that way all day today, with a high expected around 94F.

I will post back with more soon

[Input Nirvana]

You maybe should give the mixture/cases a stir every now and again. I think most of my results were visibly working in the second hour as the sun came out from foggy skies.

[Oqsy]

Been stirring about every 20-30 mins.

I also took a rough sponge and gave the case a quick rub down in the oxi bath at about 1:30 into the soak (wearing gloves) in case I didn't do a thorough enough job cleaning it off before soaking.  This way I'm sure the Oxi can equally treat the surface, in case there was a grimy spot, etc.

I recommend everyone here get a set of PVC gloves that reach to your shoulders, and some nice goggles (the kind with holes are useless for this kind of work, need a true seal if you want to keep splashes out).  I use these gloves a lot more often than I'd expected when I bought them.  I'll see if I can find a link.

These are PVC, run about $12-$15, and work fine with the retrobrite solution with or without peroxie:
http://www.amazon.com/Aqua-Gloves-Pair-28/dp/B000255OEK

These are Nitrile,[strike] so likely more delicate and harder to re-use[/strike] they appear to have a lining and should hold up well,t better chemical resistance and around $16:
http://www.labsafety.com/NORTH-Shoulder-Length-Nitrile-Gloves-Medium-1-Pair_s_121929M/Chemical-Protective-Gloves_24543574/?CID=9PP001&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=121929M

These are Neoprene, so better chemical resistance, a bit more expensive somewhere in the $50-$60 range:
http://www.labsafety.com/Best-Shoulder-Length-Neoprene-Gloves_s_152484/Neoprene-Gloves_32245688/?CID=9PP001&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=152484

These bad-asses are $400, and are really only worth it if you want to look super-creepy  like you might be stashing corpses in your basement:
http://www.calpaclab.com/products/Thermaprene_26_Chemical_Gloves_for_Acids_Alcohols_12_pair_Medium-10092-571.html
as you can see here, they're also good for shoving cotton candy into rusty industrial food processing devices..

[keyboardlover]

I'm surprised the OP got burned with peroxide and his first thought was "Dang...".

[The Solutor]

These bad-asses are $400, and are really only worth it if you want to look super-creepy  like you might be stashing corpses in your basement:

 
A 400$ pair of gloves are worth only if you plan to bleach a topre keyboard...:becky:

[Oqsy]

Ok, around 6 hours and the solution should be spent per the OxiClean FAQ.

The case is defintely lighter, but these Northgate cases seem to have a darker base color than many, so it's not "white" by any means. The before color was very close to matching the extra function row decal. Now its much lighter, and likely very similar to the factory shade. I'm curious if anyone knows what color Northgate cases were when new. All examples I've seen are quite yellow.

[Input Nirvana]

Google Images of your model and see what comes up.

[Input Nirvana]

Was it sunny?
(Attachment Link) 21190[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 21195[/ATTACH]
Ba-Da-Br!

[Oqsy]

Ok, mine is *close* to that one.  The difference between that case and it's decals is about the same as mine.  My darker keys like modifiers, arrows, etc are definitely darker than the ones in that pic, but not any more yellow.  It just looks like they're from a different batch of key caps made from a different, and much darker plastic.

[Oqsy]

Ripster: re sunlight, http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?19644-Dang...-peroxide-DOES-burn&p=381927&viewfull=1#post381927

[Input Nirvana]

Old Yeller is one issue, lightening/discoloring of the plastic is another issue. My lightened keycaps have NO yellow left.

I don't know if a keycap can become lightenend/discolored and still have yellow...but it seems possible. Caution.

[Input Nirvana]

Just turn the key or case over to see the original color.

I dunno. I did that to a girl once. I was NOT happy with what I found.

[Oqsy]

As per Ripster's suggested metric of "turning it over", it appears to be around 95% here, too.
The room I took these photos in was dark, and I didn't use flash for fear of glare and washing out the image, so this is only useful for comparison of top and bottom, not realistic representation of the shade of the case.  My photo "gear" consists of a digital P&S.  ISO of 200, no editing other than putting the two images together and resizing.  White balance, etc will be very off.  Indoor lighting from yellowy incandescent bulbs.

Bottom line, I'm satisfied with how it turned out, but a bit surprised at how dark the Northgate cases really are.  Also to note, the BEFORE color was similar to that decal strip with F1-F12 above the number row.  Improvement.

[Input Nirvana]

OQSY CASE STATUS: 95% or better...that case looks great! Yellow gone, that's the purpose, and it worked. It's a dated beige color, but not yellowed.

BEFORE AND AFTER PHOTOS: These are always cool, we all love 'em. But if you don't have a "studio" like Ripster does, it can be hard to show actual colors, and often even a relevant comparison between the two. I'm going to experiment with my Point and Shoot when I do the next case (in a week) so we can have an accurate wiki entry for "Oxy Only". Will need Ripsters advice with my available light sources.

WIKI INFO UPDATE: I guess we now know 10x recommended Oxy and water and sun does the trick. My next try will be with much less Oxy (5X?) to see how that will work.

[Oqsy]

Yay I won the thread!
This info really should be parsed and placed somewhere besides a peroxide burn thread. Illster, InputNirvana, you interested in joining me in a Wiki three-way?



Seriously, this info is useful, interesting, and was fun to test!

[Input Nirvana]

No offense, you and Litster seem like real nice guys and all, but I have a hard enough time fighting off all the love-offerings here in San Francisco. Plus, Litster is gonna kick my butt if I don't get the Cherry reds soon like I promised.

Should it be a separate header in the Retrobrite wiki as a full-submersion option or???....Ripster, would that be correct?

For a formal wiki, there needs to have complete & quality before/after photos, which I think I may be able to add with what we have so far.
I have this to whiten:
-1 set of keycaps
-2 case tops
-3 case bottoms that I don't want to submerge due to paper labels (maybe Retrobrite these)

I would have done this a year ago if I had known I could have done it this way. I'm sure that might be true for others as well.

I need at least a week before I can do anything. Gotta order the Cherry reds first!!!!

[litster]

input, I am glad that you finally have your priority straight!  LOL!  

As for wiki, I will do whatever you guys want.  I like 3-way!  I kind of have before and after pictures.  But the before picture was taken with an iphone and the quality is not very good.  But for demostration purposes, it does serve the purpose.

[The Solutor]

WIKI INFO UPDATE: I guess we now know 10x recommended Oxy and water and sun does the trick. My next try will be with much less Oxy (5X?) to see how that will work.

 
As you applied part of my suggestion (and it worked), why not test it completely and add the ammonia in to the game ?

[Oqsy]

I won't be putting ammonia in any of my mixes. I'm not brave enough to experiment with ADDING ingredients. Btw, didn't you suggest mixing bleach and ammonia earlier in the thread?  Bad idea.

[The Solutor]

Btw, didn't you suggest mixing bleach and ammonia earlier in the thread? Bad idea

No I didn't

I won't be putting ammonia in any of my mixes. I'm not brave enough to experiment with ADDING ingredients.

This is not an experiment, I'm not used to give random suggestion nor to use people as guinea pigs, this is a well known mix (I mean 50% ammonia/50% hydrogen peroxide) by any antique furniture restorer that, for the record, was my work for almost an year, when I was younger.

Just don't drink it and use it in an open environment.

[Input Nirvana]

I'm fairly certain the case I did is effectively 100% (95+% because I figure maybe it isn't and I just can't tell). The keys aren't quite perfect because I couldn't get the sun exposure correct in a jar. I want to make it less toxic, cheaper, easier, yet effective. So far, that seems to be what we three have done...I'm good with that. The only goal now (I think) is to see how little Oxy strength can be used without losing the effectiveness. My next batch will use HALF what we've previously used.There is another aspect we have not touched on, it's regarding the QUANTITY of solution. I did 1 set of keys in 20oz, another set in 32oz. I don't know how solution is actually used, but I think only a very, very small amount is needed (a couple ounces) for what we are doing...so what does that mean? Discuss.

[Oqsy]

That means we need custom trays for placing caps(like an ice tray) and/or cases to submerge in as little volume possible. Using smaller volumes means evaporation becomes an issue to consider, so something with a clear top.

[Input Nirvana]

All the various processes have merit, Maybe some are better, faster, cheaper, more effective, easier....like the endless pursuit of dongle nirvana (what else BESIDES the Blue Cube???) Necessity is the mother of invention. There are some overly-detail-oriented-OCD-geeky-nerds here

My initial thought was to explore if there was 1)a simpler/easier and 2)less toxic method that is still 3)reasonably effective. Two extra benefits are that it turns out to be 4)cheaper and 5) a common household item available everywhere.

I'm very satisfied with the results, But since I have several more items to de-yellow, I might as well fine tune some of the info (how little of a concentration is needed?).

The Retrobrite paste is crucial if you don't want to submerge the item. I have 4 keyboard cases that have a paper label on the back I don't want to destroy. So I can't get away from going the Full-Monty at some point. No pics.

Also, after we cut all the fat from this thread, it boils down to a short paragraph, with a couple mix ratios and cautions, not a separate wiki article.

[litster]

The Dolch keyboard that I received today has white letters and they have become yellow.  I ran out of yellow things to Retr0brite.  Now I need to buy more OxyClean.

Billy is dead.  Long live Billy!

[Input Nirvana]

I could see yellow on the blue and the white on the blue keycaps with white letters.

Do you see yellow on the keycap itself, not just the white legend? What color is the key?

Billy is dead....long live Billy??....put down the bottle before you type something you regret

[Input Nirvana]

FYI---update on mix ratios used

I bought a generic (not OxyClean name brand) oxygen booster at Target. 6 pounds for $7.50. OxyClean was $9.50 for the same 6 pounds. No biggie.

Now I'm comparing the suggested mix ratios between the generic and OxyClean for the same tasks. There is a HUGE difference. First, a SCOOP of OxyClean is 1/2 cup (8 tablespoons). A SCOOP of the generic I've been using is only 2 tablespoons. So using "scoop" as a form of measurement between the 2 different oxy boosters is not consistent. Secondly, the physical amounts, after I converted to standard units of measure is surprising. According to the two labels for the same tasks, require a very different mix ratio. The OxyClean requires from a low of 2x more to a high of 8x more volume of product in the mix for the SAME specified tasks.

Either the generic has much more active ingredient/less filler, or the mixing directions are very very imprecise, or---?

EDITED POST---
So if you used my mix ratio which was 10x stronger than the generic recommended, you were using the WEAKEST OxyClean solution.

[Oqsy]

Yay I overkilled again!

[Input Nirvana]

Yay I overkilled again!

No you didn't. I made a correction to that post (late nite posting math incorrect, I posted volumes). I got the strength of booster backwards.

OxyClean recommends 2 scoops for a gallon (max strength), you only used 1 scoop, which is only HALF their maximum recommended (which is their weakest strength). Your mix was the weakest category of anything OxyClean recommends. My generic mix was 10x the maximum what the generic recommends. Most likely I'm the one that overkilled. My next batch will be equivalent to yours, if it works the same, I'll do another at an even lesser strength.

EDIT--Oxy-Clean: 1/2 cup per gallon=weakest solution. 1 cup per gallon=Max strength solution.

Maybe that's why my dark keys got lightened?

[alaricljs]

Hydrogen Peroxide... decomposes to water and oxygen, pretty damned safe as long as you don't get any of the liquid on you.

[Input Nirvana]

OxyClean laundry or generic equal.

Get it on you, no problem. Lots cheaper than hydrogen peroxide and available everywhere (about .10 cents for a gallon of mixed solution). We have just accidentally figured out it can be used at the recommended household strengths, if not even less, and that it cleans yellow keyboards easily.

[Oqsy]

Plain peroxide soak was the origin of retr0bright, and Oxi was added to speed up the process. We're finding that Oxi alone seems to work as well. Peroxide often suggested for retr0bright is the beautician stuff, higher concentration, and more caustic. Oxi is used as a laundry additive, and while playing in it isn't smart, it should be MUCH safer to handle than peroxide. All of this is of course dependent on concentrations.