Cherry swith choice

[Ctn]

Which Cherry switch in terns of activation force required is closest to Microsoft Natural keyboard 4000 or the Apple Alum keyboard?

I'm having a tough time deciding on a switch since I can't demo the different Cherry switches before I buy.

[The Solutor]

The cherry switches who resemble more the scissor boards is the ergo clear, winch unfortunately isn't available in "nature".

Then you have to mod a board or to choose between

browns, soft and with very slight tactile feedback

Blues, soft with a good tactile feedback but clicky (may be problematic in silent environments)

or clear good tactile feedback but stiff (common in European boards, uncommon in the US ones, absent in the oriental made).

linears blacks (stiff) and reds (soft) have a feeling that you may like, but is very different from the one from classic rubber domes and scissor switches keyboards.

[Ctn]

The cherry switches who resemble more the scissor boards is the ergo clear, winch unfortunately isn't available in "nature".

Then you have to mod a board or to choose between

browns, soft and with very slight tactile feedback

Blues, soft with a good tactile feedback but clicky (may be problematic in silent environments)

or clear good tactile feedback but stiff (common in European boards, uncommon in the US ones, absent in the oriental made).

linears blacks (stiff) and reds (soft) have a feeling that you may like, but is very different from the one from classic rubber domes and scissor switches keyboards.

 
I'm tossing up between the Brown, Black and Red. But since I haven't used them before I have no idea which is the most similar to a rubber dome in actuation force.

I'm not sure if soft is hard or soft when compared to a rubber dome.

For brand, I've settled on Filco.

[The Solutor]

I'm tossing up between the Brown, Black and Red. But since I haven't used them before I have no idea which is the most similar to a rubber dome in actuation force.

I'm not sure if soft is hard or soft when compared to a rubber dome.

Some numbers in grams are published in the wiki, just search for rip-o-meter, and obviously even rubber domes or scissor switches can have different stiffness (sometimes even in the very same model of notebook, when different OEMs are involved).

btw 55g is usually a reasonable average number.

Blacks and clears are stiffer, around 65g, reds are definitely softer 45g, blues and browns have the same red's spring but the tactile point raises the force needed to depress the keys around 50/55g.

The ergo clears I mentioned before are made replacing the clear's spring with one from red/brown/blue switches.

For brand, I've settled on Filco.

Frankly I don't suggest to buy an expensive board as a first try, a cheaper board could be a better choice to evaluate the switch feeling.

Given the hour I assume you are from EU, in Germany you can get easily a cherry board for 40/60€ depending on the language layout needed...

[Ctn]

I'm actually from Australia.

I had a look at the actuation force of Cherry switches compared to Microsoft and Apple keyboards.

On paper it should be softer but people keep saying Browns are much stiffer than any rubber dome keyboards they've tried so I'm confused which is true.

[The Solutor]

I'm actually from Australia.


On paper it should be softer but people keep saying Browns are much stiffer than any rubber dome keyboards they've tried so I'm confused which is true.

Maybe because the keyboard are placed upside down there ? :happy:

Jokes aside, I have a blue and an ergo clear board placed side by side to a thinkpad and a vaio, and the mech boards feels softer.

P.S. Speaking about Australia you may find interesting this thread

[Ctn]

Interesting, so you think a blue is stiffer than a Thinkpad keyboard. I have a Thinkpad in the lounge. That's firmer than an Apple keyboard.

I think maybe a Black will be more to my liking.

Nice, that's very cheap for a Cherry Red keyboard.

Very temping, pity PCG charge and arm and a leg for shipping.

[Arcanius]

There is no way a brown is heavier than a rubber dome, unless we're talking 35g Topre.
The only reason somebody would think that is because of the increased travel of the mechanical switch, especially when compared to a scissor.
Also, why do you want to have the same weight as a dome? It's not always that hard to get used to a lighter switch.

[Ctn]

When gaming I sometimes rest my fingers slightly on the wasd keys to prevent fatigue.

If the keys are too light, I may press the keys accidentally.

Preferably they should be at least as firm as rubber domes.

[The Solutor]

I've read from more than one source that the clears are just like browns except they are even more tactile/clicky.

Those are, in short, the ergo clears.

Plain clears are theoretically more tactile and more stiff, practically the increased stiffness masks the increased tactility, so they feel as stiffer brown more than  more tactile browns.

[alaricljs]

When gaming I sometimes rest my fingers slightly on the wasd keys to prevent fatigue.

If the keys are too light, I may press the keys accidentally.

Preferably they should be at least as firm as rubber domes.

I have browns and I can rest my fingers on the keys without any activation.  Also it might help to be a little more specific about what sort of rubber dome you are speaking.  There's the short-stroke 'low profile' and there's the longer stroke normal keyboards.  My low profiles are definitely light, although not as light as my browns.  My standard keyboards range from uncomfortably firm to painfully firm.  Most of that is from the slide mechanisms being un-lubed and sucking at their job.

[Ctn]

The rubber domes I'm talking about are the domes on the Microsoft natural keyboard 4000.

I want to find a mechanical switch roughly as firm as them.

[Arcanius]

The 4000 is likely around 60 or 65 grams, I think, having tried a couple of them. However, the keys stick a lot, so getting a mechanical will feel much smoother to you.
I say clears would work for you, although they are harder to get than browns or blues. Blues may be good for weight, but the click and hysteresis won't be ideal for FPS gaming.
Lol, says the guy who games on buckling springs. ^^

[alaricljs]

Yes you did, and I've never touched one nor seen one in person.  The picture looks like a standard stroke board, but maybe I'm wrong because of the wonky curve it's got?  There's also the possibility that you refer to the like-new feel of the board or the broken in for N years feel... Rubber domes can change over time, especially in different environments.  I've never had a rubber dome board that felt anything like a Cherry switch, but then I haven't tried everything.

I would definitely recommend figuring out either the cheapest board or the most resell-able board (or both!) to try a switch on.  I love my Filcos but I would have choked on churning through Filcos to figure out what switch I wanted.

[Mr. Perfect]

The Solutor has the right idea, just Rip-O-Meter the Microsoft board so you can stop guessing.

[Ctn]

The Rip-O-Meter idea might be the way to go, with Oz $2 coins.

[Ctn]

I just tried the Rip-O-Meter idea.

Hmm, my 2 year old Microsoft Natural Keyboard 4000 takes around ~70g before activation. Any less than 70g, the key doesn't move at all.

Looks like I'm leaning towards the Black.

[alaricljs]

Stop abusing your fingers... I used to really like my rubber dome keyboard.  I used browns for a few days and now I can't stand rubber domes because they are too stiff.

If you're just gaming blacks may be your thing, but if you type a lot you owe it to yourself to check out other options.

[Ctn]

I just got a Filco Brown and it's simple the most awesome keyboard I've ever typed on. I find it so accurate to type on.

I quite enjoy the typing experience on the Filco but I find it weird that it takes more effort to press the key down compared to my old keyboard even though it should not. My old keyboard needs 70g to activate the switch.

I tried:
- Blue - didn't like the feel of the click
- Black - too stiff
- Red - too easy to activate when resting fingers on it but feel was good.
- Brown - best switch I preferred out of the lot.

I think the perfect switch for me would be a lighter brown.

Is there a switch that has a tactile bump just firm enough (like the Browns) to prevents accidental key-presses when resting my fingers on it then become very light (Lighter than the Reds) once you overcome this bump.

[nhwhaup]

I tried quite a few keyboards including the browns and I kind of have to agree with you. Although the actual testing proves the actuation force for the Microsoft natural 4000 is much higher than the browns it didn't feel that way for me.  Before I found this website I tried a number of non mechanical boards and my favorites were the Thinkpad laptop, Mac chicklets and then the Microsoft 4000.  For me it's all about the feel and sound and of course it goes without saying that I expect a quality build.

My absolute favorite switch is the reds with soft landing pads. I found it didn't take me long at all to appreciate the lighter touch and I found myself flying over the keys barely touching them.  The sound is as light as the touch.  I also have a Realforce with the topres but it is always as a diversion to my overall favorite reds.

[Ctn]

Yeah my favorite is  a Thinkpad keyboard, then Apple Alum keyboard then MS Natural 4000.

I've tried reds but they were so soft, felt great but resting fingers on them would trigger the switch.

If only there are lighter browns. i.e. soft springs but still takes the same force to push past the tactile bump.

[N8N]

I just got a Filco Brown and it's simple the most awesome keyboard I've ever typed on. I find it so accurate to type on.

I quite enjoy the typing experience on the Filco but I find it weird that it takes more effort to press the key down compared to my old keyboard even though it should not. My old keyboard needs 70g to activate the switch.

I tried:
- Blue - didn't like the feel of the click
- Black - too stiff
- Red - too easy to activate when resting fingers on it but feel was good.
- Brown - best switch I preferred out of the lot.

I think the perfect switch for me would be a lighter brown.

Is there a switch that has a tactile bump just firm enough (like the Browns) to prevents accidental key-presses when resting my fingers on it then become very light (Lighter than the Reds) once you overcome this bump.

Have you tried ergo clears?  I haven't, but the clears do have a more distinct tactile bump than the browns, an "ergo clear" is basically a clear stem w/ a brown or blue spring.  Personally I like the feel of clears out of the box, and the main reason I don't like browns more is that I find them too light for general typing, but you may like the ergos.

I'm not aware of a MX switch that has a lighter spring than browns but I'm sure someone will chime in.  I think that the reds use the same spring and the extra force of the browns/blues comes from the tactile bump.

lots of info here

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Cherry+switches+and+boards

[Findecanor]

I am one of those who prefer real Clears over Ergo Clears. The stiffness cushions the stroke after actuation -- halfway down the stroke. If feels like a really nice scissor-switch keyboard on a feather bed, but without any wobble -- lacking a better description.

[Ctn]

I ended up getting a Filco Linear R (Reds) and I'm loving it more than the Browns.

Typing on them feels very natural and I want even lighter.

On actual use it does have enough spring tension to prevent accidental key pressures from resting my fingers on them.

[nhwhaup]

I ended up getting a Filco Linear R (Reds) and I'm loving it more than the Browns.

Typing on them feels very natural and I want even lighter.

On actual use it does have enough spring tension to prevent accidental key pressures from resting my fingers on
them.

 I'm glad you ended up with the reds - my absolute favorite.  I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.  My husband thinks I'm a little nutty when I'm sitting in front of the TV typing just for the sake of typing.  For me the reds are that good.

[Ctn]

I'm glad you ended up with the reds - my absolute favorite.  I hope you enjoy them as much as I do.  My husband thinks I'm a little nutty when I'm sitting in front of the TV typing just for the sake of typing.  For me the reds are that good.

How are the keycaps on yours? Mine are consistently looser that the Browns. I can pull the key caps off by hand where as on the Browns I need the puller to pull them off.

[nhwhaup]

I didn't notice my keycaps being loose on the actual keyboard but interestingly enough I bought a number pad to go with the TKL and that had brown switches with very loose keycaps. One of them was actually off when I received it.

[Ctn]

It's quite annoying, almost the entire keyboard is like that.

It doesn't fall out when turned upside down, but I can remove the keycaps by lifting it up by softly pinching on them

[Input Nirvana]

I've been typing on browns for a couple years on Kinesis Contoureds. Enjoyed the feel and the soft tactile bump. Sometimes use the audible click, sometimes not. I have just changed the switches to reds and have been typing happily with the audible click all evening.

Very recently I've thought that the springs used in these switches may be a standard part that can be located, and, other springs that will fit the switches appropriately would be able to be located as well. This could easily allow for a lighter spring to be used in an existing switch. A group of springs combined with the various physical stems could give people the option to "build-a-switch".

I'm in and can do some legwork, if anyone is also interested. Litster and I are buying some reds, and doing some horse trading so we can have some samples of all Cherry switches including the custom configs in the wiki. This could easily be expanded to include a couple more spring tensions.

[nhwhaup]

I would ask where you purchased about the loose keys. That doesn't sound right.  When I would push down the caps I would feel a bump when they clicked in place and then they were solid.

I switched my keycaps to white PBT ones shortly after receiving my keyboard but I don't remember loose original caps. I kept all my original black caps and would be happy to send them to you for the price of shipping if you are interested.  I really don't know but I would venture a guess that between the switches and the caps, I would say the caps were made out of spec.

[Ctn]

Thanks for your generous offer.

I don't think that will help unfortunately, I tried the key caps on my Filco brown on it and it is still loose.

[Ctn]

I found something very interesting, the stems on the Red and Brown are not the same size. Almost the same but not quite.

I may have to take you up on your offer. Going to see if I can source PBT caps that fits snugly first.

[Mr. Perfect]

Very recently I've thought that the springs used in these switches may be a standard part that can be located, and, other springs that will fit the switches appropriately would be able to be located as well. This could easily allow for a lighter spring to be used in an existing switch. A group of springs combined with the various physical stems could give people the option to "build-a-switch".

I'm in and can do some legwork, if anyone is also interested. Litster and I are buying some reds, and doing some horse trading so we can have some samples of all Cherry switches including the custom configs in the wiki. This could easily be expanded to include a couple more spring tensions.

Cherry might even tell you where they get their springs from if you ask nice. :nod: It would be kind of nice if we didn't have to buy, tear down and then rebuild two complete boards to do switch mods.

[Ctn]

Thanks.  Added to the Peak Force wiki.

But the stems are identical size.  4.0mm.

Glad I could contribute.

The size of the Red and Brown stems on my keyboards are different.

All the Red stems are consistently slightly smaller than all the Brown stems.
Similarly for the keycaps.

It's probably due to manufacturing tolerances wrt to the moulds for different factories.

[sordna]

There's an obscure red with smaller stems but not the currently shipping ones.
(Attachment Link) 23141[/ATTACH]

Maybe that's the MX1A-R1NN I see here?
http://www.armygroup.com.tw/shop/goods.php?id=6135

reds are normally L not R.

[Input Nirvana]

R=Reduced

not really

[noodles256]

r = rinear

asian secret

[Input Nirvana]

Cherry might even tell you where they get their springs from if you ask nice. :nod: It would be kind of nice if we didn't have to buy, tear down and then rebuild two complete boards to do switch mods.

Exactly, some of this work is pretty silly if you wind up with all the extra "dead" parts. Cherry either has the springs made to their spec, or are using a "standard industrial part". I'm guessing the latter. I don't know if a simple email would do the trick with Cherry Corp. I have hit and miss results contacting companies of this sort for this type of info. I'll email right now to try and get the spring specs and a manufacturer/supplier.

EDIT--- I've sent an email to the customer service/tech support address and received an "out of office reply". I'll wait till the end of the week to see what happens.

I asked for the specifications, or a source/seller for low quantities of springs.

[Input Nirvana]

Exactly, some of this work is pretty silly if you wind up with all the extra "dead" parts. Cherry either has the springs made to their spec, or are using a "standard industrial part". I'm guessing the latter. I don't know if a simple email would do the trick with Cherry Corp. I have hit and miss results contacting companies of this sort for this type of info. I'll email right now to try and get the spring specs and a manufacturer/supplier.

EDIT--- I've sent an email to the customer service/tech support address and received an "out of office reply". I'll wait till the end of the week to see what happens.

I asked for the specifications, or a source/seller for low quantities of springs.

[Input Nirvana]

Any chance that McMaster-Carr might have anything? God knows they carry almost everything. We need some accurate spring measurements.

I'm also looking to them for foam to use for the Kinesis and Datahands.

[Input Nirvana]

*I was careless and posted this in another thread, and the thread de-railed a bit. I'm re-posting that post then the link of the de-railed responses here:

FROM CHERRY CORP:

Hi,

We do not sell springs and would not give out information about our supplier. In Asia there are a lot of companies around offering accessory sets for MX keyswitches.

A possible source in USA might be http://elitekeyboards.com/ . They may know where you can get such accessories in USA.

Kind regards/Mit freundlichem Gruss,
Ed Ferraton
Cherry Senior CID Technical Services
ZF Electronics Corporation
11200 88th Ave Pleasant Prairie WI 53158 USA
Phone/Telefon +1 262-942-6393, Fax/Telefax +1 262-942-6566
ed.ferraton@zf.com (ed.ferraton@zf.com)
www.cherrycorp.com
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sent: Wed 8/3/2011 12:59 AM
To: Ellis Vickie PPR ZFE
Subject: MX Keyswitches

Hello,

I'm inquiring about the specifications of the various springs used in the MX line of keyswitches. I need to locate either a manufacturer/supplier/distributor or seller of the springs. My goal is to change the springs within the keyswitch to achieve a pressure force that accommodates my needs. Is this a question you can provide an answer to?

1- A source to buy the springs.
2- Spring specifications so I can find a source that sells them.

Please contact me with any questions or comments.

Sincerely,

Input Nirvana-Keyboard Kutter Krew

I didn't actually sign the email this way, but it seemed funny to add that now
[/HR]

This is the continuation of that thread, basically Solutor posted a link to a supplier that will sell springs for $1 USD each...
I said that sucks...
he said yea, maybe group buy project...
I said I lost interest...

For anyone really interested in sourcing springs in a group buy or otherwise:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20569-Different-Cherry-MX-stem-size&p=392258&viewfull=1#post392258

[hella]

Dude, we should get a "Which switch should I buy" megathread.  Definitely needed.

[luie]

Buy 4 keyboards each with different switches: red, brown, blue, black.
Give the other 3 as gifts: birthdays, christmas, weddings, graduations