compact mechanical keyboard? a case for the IBM PC/AT layout

[gocantor]

Dear keyboard gurus,

I'm new to the forum, so my apologies in advance if this is rehashing an old topic (although superficial mining revealed no evidence).

I've been typing on PC keyboards since the mid-80s. In the last decade or so I grew sicker and sicker with keyboard technology and layout, especially since the emergence of modern laptops. Recently, I started delving deeper into mechanical switch technology, hoping that this will remedy my disgust with modern day keyboards and let me relive the joy of typing that I recall having as a kid... If all goes well, I'll likely end up with a nice tenkeyless MX Blue Filco, or similar.

My preference for a tenkeyless stems from the desire to reduce unnecessary hand motion---I'm a right handed trackball user. That said, I am still hesitant to give up the numeric keypad. Yes, I know I can get a separate keypad, maybe even one with mechanical switches, for the relatively rare occasions when one is actually necessary. Yet, I still have this refrain: why would I want to add yet another gadget---attached with yet another cable---to my desk? And why would I add something that I decidedly detached from my main keyboard? And, most annoyingly, why am I adding something that I just decided to remove, but whose presence didn't use to be a problem in the past?!

Well, I still remember those days when keyboards did not have dedicated navigation keys: these were coalesced with the numpad keys, and one would either use numlock (which was off by default) or depress the shift key for quick number crunching. True, that was before the MS Windows convention of marking text using shift-arrow combinations. But aside from that, it worked great.

I actually went ahead and searched for images of the PC/XT and PC/AT layouts (aka 83- and 84-key), and found that it was so much more sensible than the more recent 101/102/103/104 layouts. Most notably, it was economical in terms of space usage, more balanced, and more ergonomic: economical because it did not have a dedicated navigation group; balanced because the function keys were grouped on the left-hand side, countering the numeric keypad on the right, and as a result positioning the alphabetical keys more towards the center; and more ergonomic because of these two reasons, plus the fact that there is no sixth row (escape + F-keys + others) that requires an extended movement range. To me, it's a lot more elegant than what we have today, and sacrifices very little, really.

Searching for a compact mechanical keyboard, all I've found were either the aforementioned tenkeyless layout (sacrificing the numpad); a condensed layout (eg, Adesso MKB-125B) that sort of eliminates the navigational keys but in fact relocates them elsewhere on the keyboard; and a bunch of Cherry models that seem fairly convoluted (and ugly).

What I'd love to discover is a high-quality mechanical keyboard in the spirit of a modern tenkeyless, but one that replaces the navigation key group (3 columns) with a modern numpad layout (4 column). Ideally, it will have the F-keys grouped to the left as in the old XT/AT layout (somehow resolving the escape/backtick conflict), although I admit this is a secondary issue... ;-)

How sensible of a wish is that? Anyone seen such a beast? Or do you think I'm fundamentally wrong?

(Btw, here's a nice survey of the evolution of PC keyboards: http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdXT83-c.html )

Thanks for reading through my rants ;-)

G

[sordna]

Welcome to geekhack!
The Adesso MKB-125B, which even has cherry blues should fit the bill no? Is it an issue that it includes arrow keys? They don't really take up much space.



Another route you can take, is consider a keyboard with an embedded numpad like the Noppoo choc mini, or even a used IBM Space Saving Keyboard

[sordna]

Welcome to geekhack!
There are some keyboards like you describe, here's one, and it even has cherry blues:

http://www.fentek-ind.com/kbclickupb.htm#kbcclickupb

I believe it's the Adesso MKB-125B
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 21974[/ATTACH]

[The Solutor]

Look at the 100 keys keyboards

Like the filco mini

or the  

Termaltake meka

They are compact but the indispensable numpad is still there

[Soarer]

I totally agree regarding the AT being more sensible a layout in many ways. I modified mine, but the problem remains that there isn't an ideal location for F11 and F12.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 21985[/ATTACH]

Perhaps a modern take would have three columns on the left hand side?

The Raptor K1 / Cherry G80-1800 is a slightly nicer layout than the Adesso I think - it doesn't cram the Fn keys together in an unbroken row. But, it's hard to find one with MX blue switches. Mine have been modified to remove the cursor keys, and change the switches - one with MX browns and one with MX blues.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 21986[/ATTACH]

[The Solutor]

Amother option is to buy a left handed keyboard

this one is cherry blue

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22040[/ATTACH]

http://ergogeek.com/left-handed-cherry-mx-blue-mechanical-keyboard-usb--ps-2-black.html

[mr_a500]

I totally agree regarding the AT being more sensible a layout in many ways. I modified mine, but the problem remains that there isn't an ideal location for F11 and F12.

(Attachment Link) 21985[/ATTACH]

Wow, that really is modified. I was impressed when I first saw it... but then I noticed that you added back the two major flaws of the original 83-key Model F: backslash where left shift should be and a shrunken Enter! WHY?!?

You make me feel like spitting on the ground and shouting "sacre bleu!" (...and I'm not even French)

[ch_123]

Personally, I find the editing/arrow cluster a lot more useful than a numpad. I thought that the AT would be a nice compromise layout, but then I realized that the more conventional 'tenkeyless' layout was a better idea.

[xwhatsit]

Wow, that really is modified. I was impressed when I first saw it... but then I noticed that you added back the two major flaws of the original 83-key Model F: backslash where left shift should be and a shrunken Enter! WHY?!?

You make me feel like spitting on the ground and shouting "sacre bleu!" (...and I'm not even French)

Well, he's from the UK. That's what their keyboards normally look like (105-key vs 104-key).

You get quite used to it after a while (my daily driver is a 122-key terminal board, which has the same short shift key and vertical return).

[mr_a500]

I've been typing on PC keyboards since the mid-80s. In the last decade or so I grew sicker and sicker with keyboard technology and layout, especially since the emergence of modern laptops. Recently, I started delving deeper into mechanical switch technology, hoping that this will remedy my disgust with modern day keyboards and let me relive the joy of typing that I recall having as a kid...

Welcome to geekhack, gocantor. I had a similar experience. In the late 90's, I became disgusted with modern keyboards (I still consider the 90's to be "modern"). I didn't know exactly why keyboards had become crap - until one day I opened a non-working Comcrapq keyboard and saw a hundred little rubber cups pop out. I said, "What the hell kind of cheap crap is this??" (or something to that effect)

Well, I still remember those days when keyboards did not have dedicated navigation keys: these were coalesced with the numpad keys, and one would either use numlock (which was off by default) or depress the shift key for quick number crunching. True, that was before the MS Windows convention of marking text using shift-arrow combinations. But aside from that, it worked great.

I don't like the shift-arrow text marking. I miss the Amiga way of shift-left for beginning of line, shift-right for end of line. (and shift-backspace to delete to beginning of line)

[mr_a500]

Personally, I find the editing/arrow cluster a lot more useful than a numpad. I thought that the AT would be a nice compromise layout, but then I realized that the more conventional 'tenkeyless' layout was a better idea.

I agree. I hardly ever use the numpad.

[Soarer]

Wow, that really is modified. I was impressed when I first saw it... but then I noticed that you added back the two major flaws of the original 83-key Model F: backslash where left shift should be and a shrunken Enter! WHY?!?

You make me feel like spitting on the ground and shouting "sacre bleu!" (...and I'm not even French)

Indeed you're not. If you were, you might recognise the ISO layout, and save some words! It's just what I'm used to. The AT-F could just as easily be modded to ANSI layout, big backspace, etc. The only tricky part of that mod is adding the Alt keys. Anyway, I would urinate on your spittle!!

[The Solutor]

Personally, I find the editing/arrow cluster a lot more useful than a numpad. I thought that the AT would be a nice compromise layout, but then I realized that the more conventional 'tenkeyless' layout was a better idea.

Conventional the tenkeyless ? :madgrin:

The first one I saw was 3 months ago on GH

[gocantor]

Thanks for all your replies! Here are my thoughts...

* among modern compacts, the ones that come closest are the Thermaltake Meka (alas, linear switches) and the Majestouch Mini (beautiful though plenty cramped on the lowest row---why?). I'm sorry but both the Adesso and Raptor K1 are effectively a full 7 row layout, and they too suffers from a tiny spacebar syndrome (and other keys). Weirdly enough, I feel that all these layouts would benefit greatly from a standard height enter key (non-L shaped), and perhaps a smaller caps-lock...

* Soarer's modded model F is truly amazing! Unfortunately, I don't have the skills and time necessary to do it myself, not anytime soon...

* the layout of the IBM space saver seems identical to (say) a Filco tenkeyless, but with a much larger overall footprint---I'd prefer the Filco.

IMO, the sensible alternatives for my case are: (i) get my hands on a used IBM model F, and bite the non-standard parts of the layout; (ii) keep the numpad with the Majestouch Mini; or (iii) give it up and go tenkeyless.

Anyone knows where to find either (i) or (ii) in the US?

Thanks again for your considerate responses.

G

[The Solutor]

The filco mini has the strange first row layout because it is a Japanese board (only two versions are available, both with 100 keys, the linked one has only latin lettering, the other one has also the japaneese ones).

You can find it in Taobao (look at the wiki how to buy there, use chromium or chrome to quickly translate the page)

The  TT Meka is available in UK and IT layout since a week or so, if not already available in the US flavor should be matter of days.

Edit: already available in the US too, just google for mek007us

[gocantor]

Btw, there's this new-in-box model F on ebay for $220 w/ shipping... quite steep, even compared to the pricey Filcos.

http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-Model-F-Clicky-Keyboard-NIB-NEW-M-/320728393147

[Soarer]

Basically, gocantor, I think we share similar likes and dislikes, but nobody makes the keyboard we want  The first thing is that no current keyboard has the Fn keys on the left (that I know of), and in any case, 12 doesn't fit there only 10 (with two columns like the old AT). The second is that those keyboards that have the numpad close to the alpha block, like majestouch mini, cram (irrelevant) cursor keys into the lower right of the alpha block, killing the right shift key in the process. (It's doubly pointless since they don't manage to cram in pgup/pgdn/home/end as well)! I find tenkeyless annoying, because of having to move my hand off the cursors to use pgup/pgdn/home/end, but, if that doesn't bother you much, then tbh, you may as well go with the flow since there's plenty of choice.

I think my ideal keyboard would be almost (or totally) symmetrical - with 3 (or 4) columns on the left for function keys and PrtSc/ScrlLk/Pause, and then completely standard alpha and numpad blocks. But it looks like I would have to make it myself!

[The Solutor]

The first thing is that no current keyboard has the Fn keys on the left

Siig mintouch and Mionix zybal 60 have both the FN key on the left.

BTW this is a minor glitch on boards with windows keys, hard modding them to swap FN and win key is an easy task, and will kill two bird with one stone, at least from the gamers POV.

[gocantor]

Soarer, I started "modding" a Filco tenkeyless diagram to incorporate those properties you mention: the novelty is a 3 column F1-F12 block on the left (laid out vertically, to preserve the 4 key subgroups as in current keyboards). Since I have a spare upper row, that'll be where I'll put the escape, print screen and pause/break keys. Scroll lock will be coalesced with numlock, or I might shrink the numpad plus by half to make room for it (unlikely). Oh, and I'll reduce clutter in the lowest row by kicking out the extra windows key, allowing the spacebar to stretch a little...  then all there's left to do is pitch it to the folks at Diatec as the new "Majestouch Balance" or something.  Now, how's  that for a vision? ;-)

[sordna]

Balanced? Well, the Kinesis Advantage is probably the most balanced keyboard (has an embedded numpad too):

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22120[/ATTACH]

However, is balance that important? If you want the mouse as close as possible, a left-handed keyboard should do the trick better than a Model-F variant.

[gocantor]

It was a marketing term ;-)  is "classic" more like it?

Seriously, balance matters, but I wouldn't take it to an extreme. The Kinesis is a fine keyboard with a learning curve of 3 months, IMO. Same goes for a left-handed layout, and since I rarely use the mouse/trackball my main concern is to "balance" the keyboard itself.  I also feel that a dedicated, rectangular F-key section on the left makes a lot of sense: it saves you the up/down movement, and the nature of how you use those keys makes them suitable for a "left hand section". I tried to relocate my mouse to the left of the keyboard to no avail, and so I'm kind of reluctant to use my left hand for this purpose, or any other task that requires agility and precision (eg, navigation/numpad).  But that's of course a matter of preference.

[gocantor]

Here's my current design... possible alterations include (i) left-to-right F-key numbering; (ii) moving the escape key to the alpha section by chopping the backspace by half, this way also making room for scroll lock on the left section; and (iii) dumping the windows + context menu keys altogether, allowing the spacebar to stretch even more...

Who's buying? ;-)

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22130[/ATTACH]

[gocantor]

And here's an alternate design, with an alpha section upper row that's reminiscent of the original XT layout (escape at the left corner, small backspace) and print screen + scroll lock + pause/break all laid out together as in the standard 104 layout.

For reference, here's the original Filco layout: look how elegant this new layout is, without the extra row at the top and the alpha section so nicely centered. And yet all the functionality is still there... charming.

(Done designing, back to work, promise ;-) )

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22183[/ATTACH]

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22184[/ATTACH]

[Soarer]

And here's an alternate design, with an alpha section upper row that's reminiscent of the original XT layout (escape at the left corner, small backspace) and print screen + scroll lock + pause/break all laid out together as in the standard 104 layout.

I'd buy a couple of those... but with ISO layout ;-)

[gocantor]

This came from Diatec Japan... well, I gave it a shot ;-)

Dear Valued Customer,

Thank you for contacting us.

Yes, our mainstream products are available in the US on Amazon.com
and we are very honor to hear that you are interested in our items.

It is such a great opportunity to hear opinions/ideas from our valued
customer
and we are happy to read your proposal.

We would pass and have it read by the development dpt.

Thank you very much for your interests in us.

Thanks and best regards,
DIATEC CORPORATION

[shrap]

Great minds think alike... I proposed this exact same thing two years ago:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?6371-Why-Tenkeyless-Let-s-get-rid-of-the-arrow-keys-amp-Pageup-Pagedown-cluster-cluster

[The Solutor]

My idea is completely different
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22368[/ATTACH]


No numlock at all, two function keys, windows keys available via FN+ALT.

PG UP/DOWN available intuitively via FN +UP/DOWN

Backspace and Del available in first function AND via FN+Left/Right

FN lockable via FN+FN combination

Function keys on top in the picture but available optionally on the left as the layout posted above.

[quadibloc]

I actually went ahead and searched for images of the PC/XT and PC/AT layouts (aka 83- and 84-key), and found that it was so much more sensible than the more recent 101/102/103/104 layouts.

Heretic!

Most notably, it was economical in terms of space usage, more balanced, and more ergonomic: economical because it did not have a dedicated navigation group; balanced because the function keys were grouped on the left-hand side, countering the numeric keypad on the right,

Oh, is that all?

Those things that you like about the original PC and AT keyboard are reasonable enough. I would point out, though, that the numeric keypad is usually only used when one is not touch-typing, and having navigation keys and the numeric keypad available at the same time is very useful when one is dealing with a spreadsheet.

Having twelve function keys instead of ten is useful when emulating an IBM 3270 terminal.

But the main reason why the IBM 101/104 key keyboard is vastly superior to the 83-key and 84-key keyboards is that its layout in the primary typing area more closely approximates the One True Keyboard.

The layout of the original IBM Selectric typewriter, or many regular electric typewriters, or the Radio Shack Model 100 portable computer, for example.

[gocantor]

PG UP/DOWN available intuitively via FN +UP/DOWN

Backspace and Del available in first function AND via FN+Left/Right

Nice! But why not Fn-Left/Right for Home/End? I'd drop the Bksp via Fn combination entirely. And, maybe Fn-0 for Ins and Fn-dot for Del is more natural as it's closer to the standard numpad aliases, no?

But I do like the concept, a cleaned up Majestouch Mini ;-)

[gocantor]

I would point out, though, that the numeric keypad is usually only used when one is not touch-typing, and having navigation keys and the numeric keypad available at the same time is very useful when one is dealing with a spreadsheet.

I don't remember any difficulty typing numbers and navigating with only the numpad. You'd have a quick finger on the left shift. Your right hand could stay were it was, without moving back and forth between a numpad and the arrow section.  Same for programming, I've done some of that, too.

Having twelve function keys instead of ten is useful when emulating an IBM 3270 terminal.

I don't disagree.

But the main reason why the IBM 101/104 key keyboard is vastly superior to the 83-key and 84-key keyboards is that its layout in the primary typing area more closely approximates the One True Keyboard.

That's beyond me, sorry...  yet I did not advocate for a specific alphanumeric layout, rather about the necessity of a dedicated navigation section and the location of the F-keys. See the diagrams.

[The Solutor]

Nice! But why not Fn-Left/Right for Home/End?

 
Personally I use Home and End rerely, I tough that having all the editing functions in four keys could be nice when editing large documents, an the combination fn + arrow are intuitive. BTW why not.

ATM it's a "dream", is not said we have to share the same dream.

And, maybe Fn-0 for Ins and Fn-dot for Del is more natural as it's closer to the standard numpad aliases, no?

A lot of keys are left empty from the FN POV, so some doubled combination are possible.

The FN layer programmability could be another option, handy to have also some additional combination like vol+/- and so on.

Back to f11, f12, the usual f11=FN+f1 is a further option if placing the F keys on the left... they can't be omitted even if uncommon use like the terminal emulation are taken in account..

F11 is used to switch full screen most browsers, Both of them are used to trigger the bios boot menu in many MB.

[Soarer]

Heretic!

Oh, is that all?

No, but your attention span didn't last beyond the first post :-p

Those things that you like about the original PC and AT keyboard are reasonable enough. I would point out, though, that the numeric keypad is usually only used when one is not touch-typing, and having navigation keys and the numeric keypad available at the same time is very useful when one is dealing with a spreadsheet.

If you're having to enter lots of numbers, in random positions such that you need to regularly use the cursors, you're doing it wrong! Seriously though, that's an awkward scenario even with both numpad and cursors, since they are on the same hand. Organising the sheet so that entering numbers is done along with enter and/or tab is far more efficient.

But the main reason why the IBM 101/104 key keyboard is vastly superior to the 83-key and 84-key keyboards is that its layout in the primary typing area more closely approximates the One True Keyboard.

The layout of the original IBM Selectric typewriter, or many regular electric typewriters, or the Radio Shack Model 100 portable computer, for example.

Lolwut! The 101-key main block is closer to the 84-key than that Model 100! At least it's not missing a whole column of keys!

[woody]

I don't remember any difficulty typing numbers and navigating with only the numpad. You'd have a quick finger on the left shift. Your right hand could stay were it was, without moving back and forth between a numpad and the arrow section.  Same for programming, I've done some of that, too.

That, sadly, doesn't work with selection of text by Shift + Arrows in a normal setup, no?
A great damage was once done by making the arrow cluster on the PC101 layout be interpreted differently from the numpad area.

[Soarer]

Personally I use Home and End rerely, I tough that having all the editing functions in four keys could be nice when editing large documents, an the combination fn + arrow are intuitive.

It seems like a good idea, but I found it intensely annoying (on the Minitouch) and remapped it almost straight away, so that pgup/pgdn/home/end were solitary keypresses (using the keys in the rightmost column).

[The Solutor]

It seems like a good idea, but I found it intensely annoying (on the Minitouch)

Yeah but on the MT you have just one FN key, you are forced to use two hands in every occasion, here the combinations are available even for one hand operation.

[Soarer]

Yeah but on the MT you have just one FN key, you are forced to use two hands in every occasion, here the combinations are available even for one hand operation.

That wasn't really the issue, which was that when editing text I tend to use shift and control a lot with the cursors to mark blocks, and adding a third modifier into the mix makes it much easier to make a mistake!

[gocantor]

That, sadly, doesn't work with selection of text by Shift + Arrows in a normal setup, no?
A great damage was once done by making the arrow cluster on the PC101 layout be interpreted differently from the numpad area.

True, sadly. I wish the convention had been alt-arrow combinations, instead of shift-arrows... alt-numpad combos used to be used for entering ascii codes, but not any more, I guess?  It might still be fixed via software mapping (?).

Anyways, definitely a bummer for the layperson.

[gocantor]

That, sadly, doesn't work with selection of text by Shift + Arrows in a normal setup, no?
A great damage was once done by making the arrow cluster on the PC101 layout be interpreted differently from the numpad area.

Btw, another way to remedy this is to have a selector on the keyboard itself (dip switch, or a special lock mode triggered using e.g. shift-numlock) that will allow users to choose their numpad behavior:

(i) In regular mode (legacy), the keyboard will transmit the ordinary numpad key signals, hindering the use of shift-arrow functionality. This is great for navigation and quick number crunching, but not for selecting text a-la Windows. Great for unix geeks and other console users ;-)

(ii) In the alternative mode, the keyboard will make the arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end keys behave like the absent navigation keys, unless numlock is depressed, which turns them into ordinary numpad key presses.  This is useful for navigation, text selection, and slower number crunching (requires the use of numlock).

With this feature a "navkeyless" keyboard can actually have the full functionality of a 104-key, without the need to for another meta key (Fn).

Edit: in fact, there may be a third mode of operation which would turn it into a tenkeyless (ie, no numpad functionality).

(iii) The numpad keys are remapped (in hardware) to navigational ones, in a layout that's very similar to their standard one. No numpad functionality at all. The keyboard is essentially a tenkeyless now (well, sort of).

I'm adding a diagram. Red shows the keys converted in mode (ii). Blue lettering denotes the layout in mode (iii).

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 22456[/ATTACH]

Best of both worlds? ...or worst? ;-)

[woody]

gocantor, it's interesting, but I can't really judge because of the different people and their different usage patterns.

The easiest solution is ... getting a PC104 keyboard and live with the negatives. As for less ideal solution for numpad, I think this should be it - navigational cluster that works with Shift when NumLock is off, and number pad when NumLock is on. The compromise is letting go of the "quick" Shift number entering, but for that you have keys in the main alpha cluster.

[shrap]

It seems like you can try out most of these weird layouts with Autohotkey.

It's easier to remap keys on an existing keyboard, or retrain your brain to use a common alternate button configuration, than to keep hoping the ideal keyboard layout is going to come out (or worse yet, investing time and money to build it yourself).

[gocantor]

Points taken. I agree that adaptations are better done via mapping in software.  Now I just need the goddamn hardware... ;-)

Btw, thanks again for all your feedback.

G

[The Solutor]

It seems like you can try out most of these weird layouts with Autohotkey.

Unless one have a single OS and a single PC to use Ahk is just a workaround, a programmable keyboard could be a better solution.

[gocantor]

Unless one have a single OS and a single PC to use Ahk is just a workaround, a programmable keyboard could be a better solution.

Yep, that's a valid point, too...  going back to my previous proposal, I'd stick with just two modes: normal numpad and no navkeys, or numlock controlled navkeys/numkeys.  The third mode is really not necessary, anyone who prefers a tenkeyless layout might as well get a tenkeyless keyboard.

PS: in the absence of a true "navkeyless" model, I bought a Filco tenkeyless through Amazon. I'm anxious to see how it performs.

[gocantor]

In fact, on my two linux boxes I'm already exhibiting a useful (for me) mapping of numpad keys: without numlock, I get navigation, and shift gives me numbers (ie, "legacy" mode); however, with numlock, I get numbers, but shift gives me text selection. This is even more useful than the strict legacy mode, giving me all the functionality needed in my preferred order of precedence...  now I really wish I had a navkeyless board.

[The Solutor]

I posted a project idea here.

I hope will be taken in account by a number of users

[shrap]

Unless one have a single OS and a single PC to use Ahk is just a workaround, a programmable keyboard could be a better solution.

Yeah, how long will it take you to design and prototype your programmable keyboard? I can write an AHK script to simulate many of the layouts here in less than an hour. I'm not saying AHK is the solution to last the ages, but instead of throwing ideas fruitlessly against the wall, you could actually be using your "optimal" layout and have some experience with it.

[sordna]

In fact, on my two linux boxes I'm already exhibiting a useful (for me) mapping of numpad keys: without numlock, I get navigation, and shift gives me numbers (ie, "legacy" mode); however, with numlock, I get numbers, but shift gives me text selection. This is even more useful than the strict legacy mode, giving me all the functionality needed in my preferred order of precedence...  now I really wish I had a navkeyless board.

Nice, can you share your xmodmap?
I'm doing something similar, with the us(altgr-intl) layout which is very useful, so I do

Code: [Select]

xmodmap -e 'remove lock = Caps_Lock'
xmodmap -e 'keycode 66 = ISO_Level3_Shift ISO_Level3_Lock'
which converts my caps-lock to an altgr, with shift-capslock locking it, and then make keys like IJKL (or WASD) behave as arrow keys at the 3rd level with further xmodmap lines.

[gocantor]

Nice, can you share your xmodmap?

Funny, it's like that out of the box... I haven't changed xmodmap bindings at all. I checked xev output, and it gives me the expected mapping (in this example for the numpad left arrow, or keycode 83):

1. state 0x0 (no modifiers), got keysym KP_Left (0xff96)
2. state 0x1 (shift), got keysym KP_4 (0xffb4)
3. state 0x10 (numlock), got keysym KP_4
4. state 0x11 (numlock + shift), got keysym KP_Left

One plausible explanation is that either gdk, or the application itself (though less likely, I've seen it with at least 4-5 different ones), is interpreting case #4 as shift-left (ie "move left selecting text"). This actually makes sense because the state indicates that shift is depressed. In other words, I don't think it's something at the level of the X server. Makes sense?

[sordna]

Ok, I just reproduced the behavior in my setup. Neat! But it's definitely at the X servel level (default behavior) because if I switch to a virtual console, the shift seems to be ignored (when numlock is off, the key always moves the cursor whether you press shift or not, and when numlock is on, the key always gives you the number whether you press shift or not).
Anyway, this is good, we learned something today :-)

[gocantor]

But it's definitely at the X servel level (default behavior) because if I switch to a virtual console, the shift seems to be ignored (when numlock is off, the key always moves the cursor whether you press shift or not, and when numlock is on, the key always gives you the number whether you press shift or not).

What I meant was that interpreting the fourth case as select-while-moving-left is not done by the X server, but at the application/gtk level. Obviously, X provides the mapping from scan codes to symkeys, which you won't find in the largely simplified linux console.

Btw, looks like readline also differentiates between regular arrow keys and numlock-shift-arrow by default, as I actually get different codes on (e.g.) xterm for the two of them: the former reads ^[[D (normal left arrow), while the latter reads ^[[1;2D (same as navigation shift-arrow).