Author Topic: Smallish keyboard: KBC Poker vs PLU ML-87? (Read 10005 times)

mr626 · « **on:** Mon, 25 July 2011, 21:25:59 »

Hi all,

I am thinking of buying a smallish board with Cherry Blue switches. I figure that it is a fairly cheap way to try out blue switches, and the size of the keyboard will mean that it will be handy for lan parties and other portable duties. Once I know what cherries I like, I'll save up and order a full-sized board with them. From my own reading, listening to sound samples etc I'm fairly certain I'll be happy with cherry blues, but the real test will be to try them out :-)

I've narrowed my shortlist down to either the KBC Poker or PLU ML-87. Both are about the same price on ebay (well, the PLU is a little bit more).

Things I like with the KBC are the size, the cost and the scope for changing keycaps etc.
Things I like with the PLU is the more 'standard' key layout, the fact that it is plate-mounted (makes it more sturdy/heavier?), and that it uses POM keycaps (which from what I understand are probably the best type, material-wise?).

Things I'm not sure on:

-Build quality. Which of the two is better?
-Do either of them have problems with the current versions? (I've read about a couple of issues with each of them, but from what I can see this was with older models?)
-Long term reliability. How many of you have owned either of them for a while, and how has it aged?
-With the KBC: the key layout. How hard is it to get used to? How do people find swapping between its layout and a standard fullsize qwerty layout?
-Anything else I've missed?

Apologies for the number of questions in this post. If I end up purchasing on of these, it will be my first brand new mechanical keyboard (well, not counting the G84-4100 I have in the mail).

Thanks in advance

REVENGE · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 25 July 2011, 21:32:31 »

Quote from: mr626;387144

-Build quality. Which of the two is better?
-Do either of them have problems with the current versions? (I've read about a couple of issues with each of them, but from what I can see this was with older models?)
-Long term reliability. How many of you have owned either of them for a while, and how has it aged?
-With the KBC: the key layout. How hard is it to get used to? How do people find swapping between its layout and a standard fullsize qwerty layout?
-Anything else I've missed?

1. Tossup, I wouldn't say one is perceptibly better than the other, although the PLU will FEEL more solid due to the plate mounted switches.
2. No real "issues" per se, the PLU still doesn't have NKRO and the Poker still has some layout quirks.
3. I can say the Poker has been great as a daily driver, ask someone else about the PLU.
4. Do you play games requiring F key usage (ie SC2)? If yes, pass on the Poker and continue to the PLU. If not, you're fine.
5. Poker is very easy to mod, you can open up the switches without soldering. PLU? Not so much, you're stuck with what you've got. Poker's PCB will flex without modding, PLU's will feel rock solid. That said, the Poker is truly portable, the PLU is much larger and heavier. The Poker is NKRO, the PLU is not.

mr626 · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 25 July 2011, 21:38:20 »

Thanks, that is the sort of reply I'm after.

My daily driver usage includes: coding / unix usage at work, coding, gaming (mainly fps and rpg) at home. I don't think that F key usage or even NKRO are huge issues for me.

Portability isn't really a huge priority to be honest- either of them would be more portable that what I currently use (Dell SK-8110) although I suspect the PLU would weigh more.

daerid · « **Reply #3 on:** Mon, 25 July 2011, 21:38:27 »

Both are awesome boards. Go with whatever layout you require. My personal opinions are:

PROS for the Poker:
* Compact
* Easy to mod
* Detachable cable
* Media/Specialty keys (Task Manager, Web, Calc, etc...)
* Portability

CONS for Poker:
* PCB mounted switches (this may not be a CON for you)
* Board flexes a little
* Layout takes some getting used to

PROS for PLU:
* Can't beat the price for a plate mounted tenkeyless
* Media keys
* Fairly compact

CONS for PLU:
* Keys with stabilizers rattle unless you grease 'em up
* The cable feels really soft. Seems a little flimsy
* 2KRO (not really a big deal for me)
* Hard to mod

mr626 · « **Reply #4 on:** Mon, 25 July 2011, 23:26:45 »

Awesome, good to hear from someone that owns both.

I'm not that interested ion modding anything at this stage, but I might be interested in different keycaps. Would I be able to use (more or less) any old cherry keycaps on the PLU?

Aznguyen316 · « **Reply #5 on:** Mon, 25 July 2011, 23:43:52 »

2kro may be troublesome for dps on the plus although not sure. IMO the f keys in sc2 aren't that big of a deal unless u want fast menu access or lazy drones but both have ui buttons. But its only one fn key layer away. I just got a poker in today and it will be replacing my tkl filco browns. I love the pokers size and I got it with pbt key caps which feel great. The tkl aren't that big but comparing the two poker is much more portable. Perfect with my laptop. A cheap blue option for u could be razer blackwidow which can be bought on Amazon cheaper than these two boards.

Sorry for typos or auto correct fail. Typed on my phone lol

sordna · « **Reply #6 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 00:00:52 »

I have a poker (with blues) and compared to a tenkeyless, the thing that's harder to get used to for me, is having to hold the Fn key for things like arrows, pgup/pgdown, or delete. Key combos that include these keys are even worse, since for combos that use ctrl-alt or ctrl-shift you now have to include the Fn key for a total of 4 keys at the same time!
However I like the small size and detachable cable with non-proprietary connector, every keyboard should have this!

daerid · « **Reply #7 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 00:03:39 »

Quote from: sordna;387239

However I like ... detachable cable with non-proprietary connector, every keyboard should have this!

This is my biggest gripe about damn near every keyboard out there. I mean, I understand having a fixed cable on a mouse. That makes sense. But on a keyboard? The damn thing doesn't move (or it shouldn't be, really). And almost every other single USB based accessory/peripheral has a detachable cable.

mr626 · « **Reply #8 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 00:38:31 »

Yeah, I'm not sure that 2KRO would be a huge issue for me. What is the go with the PLU? Is it meant to have NKRO but it doesn't work?

At this stage, based on the responses I've got I'm leaning towards the PLU. Who knows, If I hang around here long enough I'll probably end up buying the Poker as well :smile:

daerid · « **Reply #9 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 00:52:11 »

Quote from: mr626;387263

Yeah, I'm not sure that 2KRO would be a huge issue for me. What is the go with the PLU? Is it meant to have NKRO but it doesn't work?

No, it's supposed to have 2KRO. In practice it's not really an issue unless you mash a ton of different buttons at the same time.

Quote from: mr626;387263

At this stage, based on the responses I've got I'm leaning towards the PLU. Who knows, If I hang around here long enough I'll probably end up buying the Poker as well :smile:

Yeah, you will. Mark my words.

mr626 · « **Reply #10 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 01:19:24 »

It's signatures like yours that scare the hell out of me!

daerid · « **Reply #11 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 01:33:23 »

What'll really freak you out is when you total up how much all of them cost. And at the beginning of May I only had the Das Keyboard.

Sent from my HD7 using Board Express

mr626 · « **Reply #12 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 03:01:10 »

Quote from: daerid;387291

What'll really freak you out is when you total up how much all of them cost. And at the beginning of May I only had the Das Keyboard.

Sent from my HD7 using Board Express

Haha, I've already learned from other hobbies not to add up the cost retrospectively- it always ends badly (especially if the wife sees it!)

So, regarding the key caps I'd be able to easily swap them on either the KBC or the PLU? I'd love to replace the Esc key with a red ABORT button :-)

domin8r · « **Reply #13 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 03:10:07 »

Quote from: mr626;387315

Haha, I've already learned from other hobbies not to add up the cost retrospectively- it always ends badly (especially if the wife sees it!)

So, regarding the key caps I'd be able to easily swap them on either the KBC or the PLU? I'd love to replace the Esc key with a red ABORT button :-)

PLU has standard Cherry Compatible keycaps so should be no problem to switch those

mr626 · « **Reply #14 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 03:20:25 »

Quote from: domin8r;387316

PLU has standard Cherry Compatible keycaps so should be no problem to switch those

Perfect :-)

Now, to find somewhere to buy the keycaps. I've started looking on pimpmykeyboard.com, but they say their keys are non-functional??

domin8r · « **Reply #15 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 04:18:10 »

Quote from: mr626;387318

Perfect :-)

Now, to find somewhere to buy the keycaps. I've started looking on pimpmykeyboard.com, but they say their keys are non-functional??

What kind of keycaps are you looking for? Just the ESC key or a full set?

mr626 · « **Reply #16 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 05:26:55 »

Quote from: domin8r;387329

What kind of keycaps are you looking for? Just the ESC key or a full set?

Just the Esc key for now. Any suggestions?

domin8r · « **Reply #17 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 06:04:08 »

Quote from: mr626;387338

Just the Esc key for now. Any suggestions?

A true custom keycap might be difficult.. maybe in a groupbuy? (check the groupbuys). If it's "just" a red ESC keycap then you can get a filco red ESC from amazon for instance : http://www.amazon.co.uk/Filco-Red-Keycap-Cherry-Switches/dp/B00304DCWQ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1311678098&sr=8-7

And there are several sellers on ebay that sell keycaps in all kinds of colors.. but the available colors vary.

IvanIvanovich · « **Reply #18 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 09:42:28 »

pimpmykeyboard.com has a few that are mx stem, but you should email first to confirm. Last time I asked panic, !#*$@, and i think there was one more were available. Otherwise check with qtan. They have a lot of different single keys to pick from via TaoBao.
Back when I was looking for a smaller keyboard to replace a fullsize I came across the PLU and came close to buying it, but went with Leopold for a tkl board instead. After shipping at that time the price was so close to each other it was no contest. Also I got a Poker, which is the keyboard that brought me to this site in the first place. The Poker in my opinion is a great keyboard and I would take it over almost any other board out there. I will have 2 of them soon. I have never wanted 2 of the same keyboard before ever.

sordna · « **Reply #19 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 10:24:02 »

check this thread about a new shop in California that builds totally custom keycaps

mr626 · « **Reply #20 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 20:29:34 »

Thanks for the replies everyone.

One thing I'm not liking about the PLU board is the ugly logo/lettering on the spacebar. Why?

I know I shouldn't care too much about looks, but it really is terrible.

Do all the black PLU ML-87 have this?

I think that for my intended use, the PLU will be the better choice. The big thing that turns me off the KBC is the lack of arrow keys- I use these quite a lot while programming (mainly in IDEs like eclipse, netbeans and idle but sometimes in vim). To have to use a function key to access the arrow keys would be a bit of a pain.

Actually, I'd be keen to hear from anyone that uses a KBC Poker for coding duties. Is there some super-secret alternative to arrow keys that I'm missing? If I could be convinced that I don't really need standard arrow keys then I may swing back towards the KBC (mainly because its cheaper, and I do like the compact form-factor).

sordna · « **Reply #21 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 20:44:01 »

Maybe you can reverse the space bar so it's not visible.

mr626 · « **Reply #22 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 20:59:34 »

That's a thought. I wonder if anyone here can confirm that reversing it is possible?

jpm804 · « **Reply #23 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 22:01:28 »

Quote from: mr626;387814

Thanks for the replies everyone.

One thing I'm not liking about the PLU board is the ugly logo/lettering on the spacebar. Why?
I know I shouldn't care too much about looks, but it really is terrible.

Do all the black PLU ML-87 have this?

I think that for my intended use, the PLU will be the better choice. The big thing that turns me off the KBC is the lack of arrow keys- I use these quite a lot while programming (mainly in IDEs like eclipse, netbeans and idle but sometimes in vim). To have to use a function key to access the arrow keys would be a bit of a pain.

Actually, I'd be keen to hear from anyone that uses a KBC Poker for coding duties. Is there some super-secret alternative to arrow keys that I'm missing? If I could be convinced that I don't really need standard arrow keys then I may swing back towards the KBC (mainly because its cheaper, and I do like the compact form-factor).

I just learned on the poker if you press spacebar +FN it changes the right shift,window,task and control to dedicated arrow keys if you dont use any of those kys on the right side.

mr626 · « **Reply #24 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 22:37:45 »

Quote from: jpm804;387868

I just learned on the poker if you press spacebar +FN it changes the right shift,window,task and control to dedicated arrow keys if you dont use any of those kys on the right side.

Hmm, I guess that might work. I'd have to train myself only to use the left shift for capitalisation though (which you do tend to use a lot for java).

Aznguyen316 · « **Reply #25 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 22:45:00 »

Yeah I capitalize all my letters with left **** haha, only time I've noticed I used the right shift was for the tilde on some word processing or something, but even most of my special symbols over the numbers I use left shift. Anyway, don't a lot of programmers use the HHKB and that doesn't have a dedicated arrow set, just the fn layer like the poker does. I'm still getting used to the arrow key usage on my poker though but the wasd arrow cluster is pretty good IMO.

mr626 · « **Reply #26 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 23:16:29 »

Quote from: Aznguyen316;387901

Yeah I capitalize all my letters with left **** haha, only time I've noticed I used the right shift was for the tilde on some word processing or something, but even most of my special symbols over the numbers I use left shift. Anyway, don't a lot of programmers use the HHKB and that doesn't have a dedicated arrow set, just the fn layer like the poker does. I'm still getting used to the arrow key usage on my poker though but the wasd arrow cluster is pretty good IMO.

True enough. Maybe its because I'm not an emacs user or something, but I do like having 'real' arrow keys.

theferenc · « **Reply #27 on:** Tue, 26 July 2011, 23:25:22 »

I can say that you get used to the lack pretty quickly. At least, I did with my HHKB, enough that I never use the dedicated arrow keys as arrow keys on my 122 key. I have them all mapped to workspaces directly. Which is awesome with the plus layout, as it matches the logical location of all of my spaces that are used. I mapped a second layer to be identical to the HHKB's FN layer, using xmodmap.

Not owning either that you are considering, I can't chime in on that. But I still think the lack of arrow keys is totally overblown. But then, I'm a UNIX beard (I even teach it).

mr626 · « **Reply #28 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 00:16:18 »

Quote from: theferenc;387916

I can say that you get used to the lack pretty quickly. At least, I did with my HHKB, enough that I never use the dedicated arrow keys as arrow keys on my 122 key. I have them all mapped to workspaces directly. Which is awesome with the plus layout, as it matches the logical location of all of my spaces that are used. I mapped a second layer to be identical to the HHKB's FN layer, using xmodmap.

Not owning either that you are considering, I can't chime in on that. But I still think the lack of arrow keys is totally overblown. But then, I'm a UNIX beard (I even teach it).

Thanks for the response. I have a lot of respect for unix beards. I have a small beard myself, which works well as it shows that whilst I'm a big unix/linux fan, I still have a lot to learn :smile:

mr626 · « **Reply #29 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 05:02:23 »

Well, I just ordered a PLU ML-87 with cherry blues. Thanks for all the replies people.

If I like the blues...I might just order a KBC Poker with them as well!

domin8r · « **Reply #30 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 05:03:48 »

Quote from: mr626;388009

Well, I just ordered a PLU ML-87 with cherry blues. Thanks for all the replies people.

If I like the blues...I might just order a KBC Poker with them as well!

Nice! Let me/us know how you like it! Considering ordering a PLu with blues too!

REVENGE · « **Reply #31 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 05:19:54 »

Quote from: domin8r;388011

Nice! Let me/us know how you like it! Considering ordering a PLu with blues too!

I used to say the Poker is an ideal second board. However, since I've been using it as a daily driver, I've had no problems with the layout at all. That includes gaming, although since I don't play ladder on SC2, I don't really need to use the F keys all that often. Anyways, nice little board. They should offer a premium version with a programmable controller, that would make it the ULTIMATE modder's dream board!

domin8r · « **Reply #32 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 06:12:55 »

Quote from: REVENGE;388015

I used to say the Poker is an ideal second board. However, since I've been using it as a daily driver, I've had no problems with the layout at all. That includes gaming, although since I don't play ladder on SC2, I don't really need to use the F keys all that often. Anyways, nice little board. They should offer a premium version with a programmable controller, that would make it the ULTIMATE modder's dream board!

I guess my first step is a tenkeyless board.. the obvious step after that is an even smaller board like the Poker (I LOVE how it looks)

mr626 · « **Reply #33 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 08:02:29 »

Quote from: domin8r;388011

Nice! Let me/us know how you like it! Considering ordering a PLu with blues too!

Will do. Just have to wait for the board to arrive now. Interesting to see how long it takes to get here- the seller I purchased from on ebay advertises that they are using express 3 day UPS shipping. Still, it normally takes a while for most things to find their way to us down here in Aus so I'm not getting my hopes up.

noodles256 · « **Reply #34 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 11:19:06 »

daerid · « **Reply #35 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 11:34:32 »

Quote from: REVENGE;388015

They should offer a premium version with a programmable controller, that would make it the ULTIMATE modder's dream board!

Oh please god hell yes.

sordna · « **Reply #36 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 14:09:46 »

Oh, yes I would love to be able to program Fn+ IJKL to give me arrow keys. I'm doing it with caps-lock now (using xmodmap). By the way I like the Poker with the ABS keys and the white letters, the legends are so bright, it's almost like using a backlit keyboard!

IvanIvanovich · « **Reply #37 on:** Wed, 27 July 2011, 14:20:56 »

A programmable version would be nice. Or they could just do a V2 with the 2nd layer fixed so it's not placed so randomly. Like I=prtscr, O=scrllck, P=pause, K=insert, L=home, ;=pgup, ,=del, .=end, /=pgdn. I could care less about the other keys like cal, web, task, and volume up/down. I do like the 2nd del on z though still. I am really not sure what their reasoning behind placing where they did. It would have been more logical to place them like I suggest or similar so it followed conventional placement in relation to each other on a standard keyboard. I don't use those keys often, so it would be nice not to have to think about it or pull out the keysheet since I don't have the stock keycaps on mine anymore. The 2nd layer placement dosen't seem to correspond to starting characters of Chinese words for those functions either, or I'm missing something. It just seems totally random and illogical to me.

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Author Topic: Smallish keyboard: KBC Poker vs PLU ML-87? (Read 10005 times)