Author Topic: Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?  (Read 5110 times)

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Offline jumpfroggy

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Ok, so I've been typing on a Filco browns board for years and liked it, but always wish it had more "tactile".  I finally got my Das Keyboard Ultimate S to try out the blues, and I've been using it a couple of weeks now.  I do like the click & tactile part, but I realize now that I miss how light the browns were.  The blues seem much more stiff, and I find myself making typos because my fingers aren't pressing the blues hard enough.  I know I can adjust eventually, but I think I'd rather have something lighter.

So what's next?  I've been eyeing the topre's for a while, but I don't know if they're tactile enough for me.  I'll probably get some eventually - when I can justify such a large purchase.  Meanwhile, is there another switch that might work for me?  I think a blues switch with brown springs (or even lighter?) might be perfect.  Do they make such a thing?  Can I buy brown springs somewhere?  Or even lighter springs, like reds?  Are brown springs really lighter than blues, or is there some other reason why the Das Keyboard is stiffer than my Filco?

I keep wondering if I should look into linears.  I like the feel of browns, but I wish they had more of that bump/click.  Seems like linears are in the opposite direction (no bump at all).  Blacks are stiffer than blues, and reds are less stiff than browns, right?  So it seems like these are not right for me.

I realize this is all subjective, but maybe others have some advice based on their own experience.

PS. I don't want to cannibalize my browns board, so I can't use the springs from there.  I'd like to keep it ready to use.

Thanks guys!
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 01:43:31 »
browns and blues are using the same spring. I think you've dialed in on the browns too much if that's really the case.

I was going to suggest ergo clears, because it would be more tactile than browns but use the same spring as well. But they would fall into too hard at that point.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline IvanIvanovich

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #2 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 09:21:18 »
Maybe try some Alps board? I believe there are some Alps switch that fit what you would be looking for, but I am no Alps expert so I'll leave the board recommendation to someone who knows more.

Offline Chobopants

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #3 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 10:00:47 »
I'd try out a linear board before you knock it. You should be able to at least try out some blacks at a Fry's or Microcenter. If you want gentle tactile I'm not sure what to recommend. Browns kind of fit the bill for what you're going to get in that department.
Realforce 87UW 45g - Filco Blue 87 - Filco Linear R - Filco Brown 104

Offline Arcanius

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #4 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 10:29:29 »
You might want to try Ergo Clears, which are a mod with clear stems and brown springs.
Brown, blue, and red springs are all the same, the added weight is due to the bump (or lack thereof) on the stem.
The only way to get a more tactile brown is with clear stems, which is a lengthy process.

Offline The Solutor

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #5 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 14:18:52 »
Quote from: jumpfroggy;387268
I think a blues switch with brown springs (or even lighter?) might be perfect.


Blue and brown springs are the same.

You are looking for ergo clears (clear stem with blue/brown/red spring), or maybe dampened Alps (AEKII, SGI Granite)
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Offline Aznguyen316

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #6 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 14:28:36 »
Quote from: ripster;387404
Topres are about as tactile as any rubber dome keyboard.

Not very.

See the force chart in the Topre wiki.

can you explain the feel of the tactile on the topres?  I tried the browns and now reds and much prefer the reds w/o the tactile "bump" although very light in the browns.  I am very interested in trying out the HHKB topre switch, but am curious what the tactile feel is like as I prefer the linear red so far (I've only tried brown and red Cherry MX's).

Offline Arcanius

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #7 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 16:12:05 »
The Topre is a rubber dome that's really smooth and light, and that's what it feels like. The tactile bump doesn't lead you straight to bottom, so it's a bit different than some switches.
Also, the tactile bump seems to be farther up than cherries or BS.

Offline Chobopants

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #8 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 16:19:56 »
55g isn't that light. :) It varies but it's decently close to a rubber dome. I find the 55g Topres at least to be really "crisp" feeling in terms of the pop they make when you actuate them.
Realforce 87UW 45g - Filco Blue 87 - Filco Linear R - Filco Brown 104

Offline Arcanius

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #9 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 16:21:10 »
I've only tried 45g, which is 20g lighter than the average 65g rubber dome.
Also, that is the weighting of the HHKB, IIRC.

Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 18:24:07 »
@Solutor, the granite seems to be hard to find in any case.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline TexasFlood

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 19:00:52 »
I used to work in a building full of SGI computers, many of which had granite keyboards.  SGI Indigo 2s with nice big dual Sony Trinitron monitors and granite keyboards, wasn't bad.  There were many other models, O2s and bigger iron, but it's the Indigo 2s I remember fondly.

Offline The Solutor

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 19:06:34 »
Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;387750
@Solutor, the granite seems to be hard to find in any case.


Just yesterday I seen one on ebay.

Btw dampened alps are nice because can be undampened easily to meet two different tastes.

I presume that even the non clicky leaf spring can be replaced with a clicky one to experiment further.
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Offline False_Dmitry_II

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 26 July 2011, 22:35:21 »
Oh, if you type in 'silicon graphics keyboard' there are tons of hits. All of which are rubber domes, and not the alps one we are talking about. I've been looking for one.

And yes, all those things are interchangeable.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin (11 Nov. 1755)

Offline The Solutor

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 04:03:53 »
Quote from: False_Dmitry_II;387892
Oh, if you type in 'silicon graphics keyboard' there are tons of hits. All of which are rubber domes, and not the alps one we are talking about. I've been looking for one.


http://cgi.ebay.de/SGI-Silicon-Graphics-Keyboard-Indigo-Personal-Iris-/300573367031?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fb919af7

This at the momentt is the only one available, not granite coloured, and likely not the ps/2 version, but good to harvest switches, or to use it as a base for a mod.
The problem with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are true  (Abraham Lincoln)

Offline jumpfroggy

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 09:43:40 »
Quote from: Aznguyen316;387608
can you explain the feel of the tactile on the topres?  I tried the browns and now reds and much prefer the reds w/o the tactile "bump" although very light in the browns.  I am very interested in trying out the HHKB topre switch, but am curious what the tactile feel is like as I prefer the linear red so far (I've only tried brown and red Cherry MX's).

Aznguy, what did you think about the browns vs. reds?  Why did you prefer the reds?  Was it the lack of tactile bump, or the lightness of the switch?  Wasn't the red a lower-force switch? (IIRC from the wiki).  I'm really tempted to get a reds board now, for some reason it's stuck in my head.
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)

Offline Mazora

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 09:46:29 »
Why not buy, test, then sell in the classified section? I did that: epic adventure !
HHKB Pro 2: black case white keys
Filco Masjestouch v2 / MX-Reds / hard lending pads /Dye-sub keycaps
RF-87UW

Offline jumpfroggy

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #17 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 09:48:48 »
Quote from: Mazora;388079
Why not buy then sell in the classified section? I did that, epic adventure !
Hmm.  I do like epic adventure....

Yeah, but the reds board I saw was $175!!!  So steep.  I might as well get a topre.  Maybe I'll get a topre.
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)

Offline Chobopants

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 10:41:57 »
Quote from: jumpfroggy;388080
Hmm.  I do like epic adventure....

Yeah, but the reds board I saw was $175!!!  So steep.  I might as well get a topre.  Maybe I'll get a topre.

My Linear R and 55g Realforce are tied for favorite board for me right now. I equally recommend both.
Realforce 87UW 45g - Filco Blue 87 - Filco Linear R - Filco Brown 104

Offline jumpfroggy

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 14:49:22 »
Quote from: Chobopants;388104
My Linear R and 55g Realforce are tied for favorite board for me right now. I equally recommend both.
Interesting!  Those look like my next two choices.  What are your thoughts on those two, especially compared to the browns/blues?  Very curious.
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)

Offline Aznguyen316

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #20 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 15:27:03 »
Quote from: jumpfroggy;388077
Aznguy, what did you think about the browns vs. reds?  Why did you prefer the reds?  Was it the lack of tactile bump, or the lightness of the switch?  Wasn't the red a lower-force switch? (IIRC from the wiki).  I'm really tempted to get a reds board now, for some reason it's stuck in my head.

I enjoyed the browns and it was my first mechanical keyboard switch.  I guess I didn't like the little tactile bump.  Well, the thing with it is it's so light that you don't really "feel" it when you type, and that was okay, but it took away some of the smooth keystroke feeling.  Also these reds, they're a light switch, but I can't tell the difference in actuation force to be honest, but the difference I noticed is the reds have a very subtle "push back" feeling like a springy feeling back on you.  I don't think it's as strong as the blacks from what I've read (never tried blacks) but I like the feeling of the keys wanting to go back into place after pressing them.  The keys are still very light on the reds even with this feeling of a push back since I can't seem NOT to bottom out with these.  I am definitely bottoming out more with reds than my browns and maybe that's where the tactile feel comes into play unknowingly.  Let me know if you need clarification if this sounds confusing =D

I really want to try the topres too because of the 45g actuation (I prefer lighter switches I think). Just curious about what the tactile bump is like.  I hear it's "higher" but yeah wish I could try it without having to drop $275 first haha
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 July 2011, 15:29:36 by Aznguyen316 »

Offline Chobopants

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #21 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 15:36:34 »
@jumpfroggy -

Reds are probably the closest to Browns that you'll find. Aznguyen's description is very apt. They're close to browns but there is just a hint more of pushback as you near the plate (really subtle though) and its 100% smooth. I still like my Browns but Reds edge them out for me. If you already have Browns and you're price sensitive and looking for variety I wouldn't recommend Reds, they're just a little too close to Browns to recommend if you're in that situation. If you want what I considering THE best Cherry switch, however, and want to min/max -  then I highly recommend them.

Topres are very different than any Cherry switch I've found. They're really not even in the same category. Closest feeling you'll get is just going to Best Buy, finding the firmest rubber dome that they have available, and pretending like it's built to the highest standard possible and even more firm. Topres are nice but they're still rubber domes. Just very crisp, firm, nicely made ones. There's nothing wrong with that but you're not going to get a super unique mechanical feel to them. I still super love them. Looking forward to typing on my Realforce tonight. :)
Realforce 87UW 45g - Filco Blue 87 - Filco Linear R - Filco Brown 104

Offline RiGS

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #22 on: Wed, 27 July 2011, 15:42:43 »
You should try the 45g Topre.
 BTW rubber domes actuate at the bottom of the stroke and not the top half of the stroke like the Topre switches.
In that repsect they are closer to mechanical switches than a RD.

f*ck the edited label
« Last Edit: Wed, 27 July 2011, 15:46:30 by RiGS »
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline jumpfroggy

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #23 on: Fri, 05 August 2011, 02:02:09 »
As an update, I found a good deal for a realforce 103ub variable weight, should arrive today (Fri).  I've been back typing on my brown board again, and I really like it.  It's really amazing - just taking a break from my filco brown board and typing on the das keyboard mx blues made my filco *so much quieter*!  I used to worry about the noise.  Now I can't even hear it, really.  And while I always wanted something "tactile", I think I may be giving up on that.  I realize that I'm a much lighter typer than I thought (due to the browns), and now maybe I'm swinging in the other direction - mx reds?  Smoother / no bump?

At any rate, the das keyboard is going back and the browns is still my main / favorite.  We'll see what happens with the topres this weekend.  Then... maybe a reds board?  I think that one will be hard to justify (not that any >$150 board after the first is really that easy to justify anyway).  Thanks for all the feedback so far, it's really great to speculate & hear opinions - probably saves me a few unnecessary purchases.
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)

Offline jumpfroggy

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #24 on: Tue, 09 August 2011, 16:25:05 »
Ok, so I found a good deal on a Realforce 103UB (variable) and have been trying it out the past couple days.  My first impressions - the keys are very light compared to firm rubber-dome (like the original Dell quietkeys).  Typing on the switch, it makes sense compared the force graph.  I'm trying to give them a fair run, but I'm fairly convinced I wont like these.  I really thought I would, since I used to love rubber dome.  But this is the first keyboard that actually makes my fingers hurt.  I'll reserve final judgement till I've had a few more days on this, but so far my impressions:

The problem is that the keys have resistance at the top, then just about none under that.  That makes sense, referring to the force graph.  But essentially that means I have to press a bit harder to get the key started, then the force drops out and my fingers hit bottom.  It's counter-intuitive to non-bottom-out typing - you want to press a bit, then have the spring prevent you from bottoming out.  In this case, you have to get it started to get over the rubber dome hump, but then the force drops and it almost sucks your finger down to the bottom.  So the rubber dome works against you in this case.  It's hard not to bottom out - either I press hard and get a smooth key press until my fingers bottom out (which feels uncomfortable), or I press lightly and miss some key strokes.

So it looks like this key is the opposite of what I want.  I'm really glad I tried it, but like I said - it's the first keyboard I've tried that actually makes my fingers hurt.  Barring any massive change of heart over the next few days, this one is going up for sale.  It could be related to variable force.  It's hard to tell, but I think my ring fingers are having the worst of it, which might be explained by the lesser force for those switches.  One more thing - the spacebar is stiff.  Seems stiffer than the normal 55g switches.  At any rate, it's too stiff.

So my thoughts on the next switch... I think I might actually want a linear switch. After going from blues back to browns, I realize I love the smoothness of it, the lack of pressure on the top.  So maybe reds really are next on my list - the same as browns, minus the tactile bump.  I'm not sure if that's good or bad, but it's pretty much the only thing left on my list.  I think I understand what people mentioned about having the reds push your fingers back up - not sure if that's so much different from the browns, but definitely different from the topre.  And if that doesn't work out, I think I'll just stay with browns from now on.

(Switching to my old browns board to type the rest):
Man, I'm so much faster on mx browns, it's ridiculous.  The topre's are too mushy, take too much force at the top.  Whereas the browns have the full force at the end of their stroke, the topres seem to have the most force at the top of their stroke (ie. take a bit to get started).  Another note - I *LOVE* the texture/feel of the topre switches.  My filco keys are completely shiny, but even brand new they never had the same texture as the realforce.  The realforce's texture is more coarse and noticeable.  The filco's was much more satin, less noticeable and not as nice feeling.  The realforce's tone is much lower, the keys don't have as much looseness or clickiness as the filco does.  Just lightly hitting the tops of the keys on realforce causes almost no noise or movement, where as the filco has a lot of key noise (not switch noise or bottom out noise).

I don't care about the lettering on my keyboard (in fact, I prefer otaku or black on black), but I would love to get a keyset that's more durable.  Does my filco FKB104M/EB have abs keys?  Would alternatives (POM, etc) have more durable texture?  Would sandblasting give them a realforce-like texture, or would they wear off too quickly?
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)

Offline nhwhaup

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 09 August 2011, 17:34:42 »
I agree with you on the topres as I also have a difficult time not bottoming out.  Go for the reds and if you find yourself bottoming out with those - get the soft landing pads. My absolute favorite keyboard thus far is my Filco TKL with the soft landing pads, red switches and grey on white PBT keycaps. In my opinion it doesn't get any better. But then again I do have an order in for one of those silent 87U Realforces. I'll update with a comparison once I receive it.
Current in order of preference:  RealForce 87U Silent White with variable weighted keys X 2, Filco Majestouch 2 Tenkeyless with Linear Reds, Filco Number-pad, Poker with Linear Reds

Sold or returned:  Multiple Microsoft and Logitech keyboards, Das Keyboard Silent, Cherry 6140, RealForce 103UB, RealForce 86U, Filco Majestouch 2 full sized with Linear Reds

Offline jumpfroggy

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Liked browns, tried blues (too hard) - what switch is next for me?
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 09 August 2011, 21:16:48 »
Quote from: ripster;396052
Sandblasting would give them LESS texture.
Your Filco has ABS keys.
And OCN/Ducky/KBC Laser Engraved Keys kick butt.  Sig>Reviews>Keys>Quack


Right now they're mirror-shiny.  I thought sandblasting would give them a fine texture, like rough sandpaper?  In that case, what about using medium or fine sandpaper?  I wouldn't have thought it before, but the smoothness is really annoying.  Sticks to my fingers.

And yeah, I thought they were ABS.  It seems filco's are smooth ABS with a "coating", but no inherent texture.  The coating wears fast.  From what little I've read, the PBT's are harder and will wear less.  Right?

Ripster - your PBT vs Filco test seems to show that the PBT keys have more texture like the realforce, right?  I think that's what I want.

Quote from: nhwhaup;396088
I agree with you on the topres as I also have a difficult time not bottoming out.  Go for the reds and if you find yourself bottoming out with those - get the soft landing pads. My absolute favorite keyboard thus far is my Filco TKL with the soft landing pads, red switches and grey on white PBT keycaps. In my opinion it doesn't get any better. But then again I do have an order in for one of those silent 87U Realforces. I'll update with a comparison once I receive it.


Yeah, it makes complete sense when you consider the force graph.  It's like pushing a ball up a hill, then trying to let go before it rolls down the other side.  Hard to control.  You basically have to be used to stopping your finger at a precise distance, without any help from the spring/switch.  Very "misleading" on my fingers.  I'm back on my browns board right now.  I *really* miss the textured keys, makes a huge difference.  Then again, my brown board has been used for years and has been worn shiny.  Even new, they had a "matte' finish but no real texture to speak of.  Now I want PBT keys.  Man, this is getting expensive.
Filco FKB104/EB - Das Keyboard Ultimate S - Realforce 103UB variable - Filco Linear-R (soon)