Different Cherry MX stem size

[Ctn]

I have a Linear R and a Ninja Brown.

Both have slightly different stem sizes. Very minor differences.

The stems on the Brown switches are very slightly larger than the Red switches.

The keycaps that come on the Linear R fit very tight on the Ninja Brown switches and the keycaps that come with the Ninja Brown fit very loose on the Linear r's red switches.

When buying key caps, how do you specify the right size?

[Arcanius]

You don't. All stems SHOULD be the same size. But any material can expand, contract, etc, and there is a margin of error for all these things.

[Ctn]

All the red switches on my Linear R are consistently smaller than the stems on my Ninja Brown switches.

Their respective key caps are also sized accordingly.

[Arcanius]

Alright, but remember that the mould for reds is different than the mould for browns. A small difference in the moulds could cause this, and you may have gotten lucky with the keycaps. There have been reports of slightly wobbly keycaps on almost all brands of keyboards, Filco not being an exception.
Ninja keycaps are also slightly different since they don't have the coating on them, which may also be represented by a different mold that is coincidentally smaller. Cherry MX datasheet lists specific measurements for switches, which is a bit disturbing, since they don't seem to be identical.

[Ctn]

Interesting, they may have different moulds. It's disturbing to hear that other brands including Filco suffer from this. Filco isn't cheap.

It appears that the red and brown switches are sized slightly differently as are their keycaps.

My question is now, when buying keycaps such as the KBC PBT, are these the same size as the Red or the Brown keycaps.

The keycaps from the Ninja brown switches fit very loosely on the Linear R red switches.

[Ctn]

Mine aren't.

Different factory perhaps.

[Ctn]

Ok.

[noodles256]

ok. case closed

Excellent work holmes

[daerid]

I had problems with some keycaps that I put on my first Poker Red staying on the board. It definitely seemed like the Red stems were slightly smaller than the brows/blues/blacks that I've had. Maybe it has something to do with the color/dye they use making it contract slightly (just a random guess).

[daerid]

Yeah, but M&M color is applied topically. The coloring of the plastic used in the Cherry stems gets actually mixed in with the plastic throughout. That's why I was thinking it might have an effect on the cooling process or something like that.

[Spinifex]

@ CTN

Do you notice much of a difference when typing on the REDS as opposed to the BROWNS.   I'm looking for a Red TenKeyless but my wife thinks I'm nuts.  I don't want to have to explain to her.  

Can you explain the difference in Switches please.  It is just easier that way.

Seriously, what do you prefer to type on?  Are you at touch typist?

[sordna]

The red switches on my Kinesis are definitely not smaller or thinner than my older Kinesis with browns. In fact I had a hard time removing keycaps to get the o-rings in. Hower on all my keyboards with cherry switches (I have browns, reds, blues), repeated removal of keycaps does loosen things a bit and it becomes easier over time.

[Ctn]

The red stems are definitely smaller than the brown stems but only ever so slightly. I'd be surprised if there's is 0.01mm in it, just enough to make a difference to a loose keycap and a tight fitting one. My guess is that they are made with slightly different moulds and/or different factory.

Spinifex,

When I first got the browns I was over the moon, it felt great. I used to have a bucking spring keyboard in my teens. The tactile bump felt amazing. It felt almost as good as that but not as firm and as tactile. The typing experience was very precise but it was easy to bottom out.

With the reds, although it shared the same spring, the linear nature made it feel like a totally different keyboard altogether. It felt very natural like the keyboard was an extension of my own hand and fingers so typing on it was effortless. It was better than the brows for both typing and gaming. After using the reds for a while, I found the tactile bumb annoying and it tend to get in the way of otherwise a great typing experience.

Although both the brown and red share the same springs, the reds feels significantly lighter to activate the switch but feels heavier when bottoming out. I guess the tactile bump stores some energy due to you applying more force to overcome it so when you pass that point it gets transferred to the spring making it easier on the brown switch.

There's not much in it between the two though, It comes down to personal preference. I'm a touch typist so the bump doesn't really do much for me as I know how far I pressed.

[daerid]

Honestly, these days I'm preferring blacks to reds. But then that's probably just because I have mongoloid hands

[noodles256]

different size?

i have two different colors. so many problems with mech boards, going back to my g15

[Ctn]

different size?

i have two different colors. so many problems with mech boards, going back to my g15

Very slightly different, just enough to cause loose key caps.

[Input Nirvana]

I have taken keycaps off for the very first time on my daily driver Kinesis with browns so I could put on the doubleshots. I had to stop several times and regroup, the keycaps were on so tight! On about 15, it was scary-switch-might-pull-apart-tight. To push on the doubleshots was a bit uncomfortable as well.

[Spinifex]

That is a great answer CTN.  I think I'm going to try some cherry reds now.  Got the browns; love them, but I want to test what other switches are like.

Ta.

[Ctn]

I have taken keycaps off for the very first time on my daily driver Kinesis with browns so I could put on the doubleshots. I had to stop several times and regroup, the keycaps were on so tight! On about 15, it was scary-switch-might-pull-apart-tight. To push on the doubleshots was a bit uncomfortable as well.

Keycaps on my Browns were very tight too.

That is a great answer CTN.  I think I'm going to try some cherry reds now.  Got the browns; love them, but I want to test what other switches are like.

Ta.

I think you will like the Reds.

Filco Reds are pretty hard to get in Australia. Leopolds are easier from PCCG and cheaper but I don't like their stabalizers.

[Input Nirvana]

FROM CHERRY CORP:


Hi,
 
We do not sell springs and would not give out information about our supplier. In Asia there are a lot of companies around offering accessory sets for MX keyswitches.
 
A possible source in USA might be http://elitekeyboards.com/  . They may know where you can get such accessories in USA.
 
 
 
Kind regards/Mit freundlichem Gruss,
Ed Ferraton
Cherry Senior CID Technical Services
ZF Electronics Corporation
11200 88th Ave Pleasant Prairie WI 53158 USA
Phone/Telefon +1 262-942-6393, Fax/Telefax +1 262-942-6566
ed.ferraton@zf.com (ed.ferraton@zf.com)
www.cherrycorp.com

 

[/HR]

Sent: Wed 8/3/2011 12:59 AM
To: Ellis Vickie PPR ZFE
Subject: MX Keyswitches

Hello,

 

I'm inquiring about the specifications of the various springs used in the MX line of keyswitches. I need to locate either a manufacturer/supplier/distributor or seller of the springs. My goal is to change the springs within the keyswitch to achieve a pressure force that accommodates my needs. Is this a question you can provide an answer to?

 

1- A source to buy the springs.

2- Spring specifications so I can find a source that sells them.

 

Please contact me with any questions or comments.

 

Sincerely,

Input Nirvana-Keyboard Kutter Krew


I didn't actually sign the email this way, but it seemed funny to add that now

[Input Nirvana]

[The Solutor]

As I said the problem is not finding the correct springs the problem is the cost for limited quantities.

Look at this, I haven't reverted the units in a readable form, but is sufficient to understand the cost of a single spring.

.92$ aka 95$ per keyboard. And when a cherry board cost 40€...

http://www.centuryspring.com/Store/item_detail.php?StockNumber=10075

[Input Nirvana]

Nuts! I thought they would $1.50 USD for a package of 20-25 springs retail. If that is the spec, I guess a little more searching is in order.

[The Solutor]

Nuts! I thought they would $1.50 USD for a package of 20-25 springs retail.

Is what I thought too...

I think the only way is to contact a spring maker and ask for a reasonable quantity of [custom] springs, like 5000 or 10000 pieces and then resell them as a group buy.

I'm sure, this way, the price will end to something like 5 cents per spring or less.

Here in italy most of the spring maker accepts custom orders, but due to the larger user base an US based maker should be better.

[Input Nirvana]

As for me, right now I'll just do what's needed to get a couple samples of each switch. I'll make things more complicated by creating new switches sometime when I become bored, or have a good idea.

[Input Nirvana]

oh god damn

wrong ****ing thread

seriously why I'm having problems the last 6 months

not paying attention

no one called me out or shot me in the head to end my misery?

****

I have been spending way too much time here the last couple months

decrease is needed

[Ctn]

At least we've established the Cherry MX stem size doesn't vary.

Not yet.

[daerid]

Not yet.

I concur. All we've established with any certainty is that some people on this forum (myself included) have noticed that the same keycap fits more loosely on their red switches than the other switches.

[Phaedrus2129]

There are tolerances when dealing with manufacturing. Not every plastic mold is identical down to the micron. And not every batch of plastic is 100% the same consistency. Things vary.

[Input Nirvana]

There are tolerances when dealing with manufacturing. Not every plastic mold is identical down to the micron. And not every batch of plastic is 100% the same consistency. Things vary.

Just like my erections when girls think it's ok to to fart in front of you just because you've had sex...

[daerid]

Micron is pretty small.

I get 4.01mm.

What do you get?

What do you get for the individual arms of the cross?

[Ctn]

I'm going to get a new battery for my digital caliper.

Will post results in the next day or so.

[Ctn]

Hurray for signatures.

[Ctn]

I just measured a few keys of my red vs my brown.

Not much difference between the Vertical and Horizontal parts of the stem 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red)

Red and Brown measure the same except for the thickness of the Vertical part of the stem.

Brown is 1.1mm and Red is 1.07mm.

Red stems are slightly smaller than the Brown stems.

[daerid]

I just measured a few keys of my red vs my brown.

Not much difference between the Vertical and Horizontal parts of the stem 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red)

Red and Brown measure the same except for the thickness of the Vertical part of the stem.

Brown is 1.1mm and Red is 1.07mm.

Red stems are slightly smaller than the Brown stems.

Well, that clears things up.

[Arcanius]

Well, that clears things up.

No it doesn't, we have one set of data. We don't know if molds differ or not, we'd need a lot more people to get measurements to be able to confirm anything.

[Ctn]

I think we should do a poll.

That's backed up with data, not just pure voting.

Could you measure the width of the Vertical part of the stem on your Reds and Browns/Blacks/Blues ?

[Ctn]

Good way to achieve nothing.

[Arcanius]

Ripste's still sour from all the pinginess, must have damaged his ears.
If anybody else has brown/blue/black or red switches and a micrometer, could you try to measure some of your switches so we can get some more data?

[keyboardlover]

Ripster you sure did blow that issue out of proportion.

Ping!

[Input Nirvana]

There was no army of one on that deal. Everyone that fought an opposing battle of the ping did so with a lot of opinion, not all the facts, and lost sight of the goal. Just like real world politics.

Ping that, ping-heads.

I raise your ping. PING!!

[daerid]

I'm just glad it turned out to not be a Filco issue.

However I truly doubt the Filco Red Cherrys have smaller stems than the other stems.

Have you eliminated the keys as being the variable?

That would require data, which you don't seem to be all that keen on at the moment

[daerid]

Really...

Egotistical much?

[daerid]

I believe the answer to your jest would be "Testtical" :-o

[Input Nirvana]

Remember, I got a negative number with the online IQ test.

Ask that racist mensa guy from a month ago. He should have some great meatloaf recipes as well.

[daerid]

But then it wouldn't really relate to "Quizzical"

[The Solutor]

Why would anyone think Cherry Corp would change the size of their stems?  Sounds like one of these Krazy Ass Korean KBDmania theories.

Although it's odd the Cherry MX datasheet has an old picture of their stems.

Likely the different dye has an effect when the liquid plastic solidify

[The Solutor]

I would have thought the chemists would have figured out plastic dyes that don't do that in the last 50 years.

It this an Italian theory?

FYI Italy is world leader on molds, and here in the neighbor I have a lot of clients that do modeling from tiny components, to car's bumpers, to UFO's (the aliens you see are built in Italy by a client of my ex coworker and the electronic inside is entirely my work, the UFO shown in NYC, is built by the same company and most of the electronics inside is made by my ex coworker with my contribution).

So... Yes Italy is a good place to ask about molds.

[Ctn]

I just measured a few keys of my red vs my brown.

Not much difference between the Vertical and Horizontal parts of the stem 4.03mm (Brown) vs 4.02mm (Red)

Red and Brown measure the same except for the thickness of the Vertical part of the stem.

Brown is 1.1mm and Red is 1.07mm.

Red stems are slightly smaller than the Brown stems.

Any more stem measurements of Reds vs Browns/Blacks/Blues on the width of the Vertical part of the stem.

[noodles256]

FYI Italy is world leader on molds, and here in the neighbor I have a lot of clients that do modeling from tiny components, to car's bumpers, to UFO's (the aliens you see are built in Italy by a client of my ex coworker and the electronic inside is entirely my work, the UFO shown in NYC, is built by the same company and most of the electronics inside is made by my ex coworker with my contribution).

So... Yes Italy is a good place to ask about molds.

Italians also molded themselves a good stereotype here in the Mericas.