Up side down cherry switch?

[msimon]

My filco tenkeyless left windows cherry switch is actually upside down and the right windows key is the right way up, checked other keys to and there fine its just the left windows key.
Anyone else with a switch like this and is it normal to see this.

[Findecanor]

It should makes no difference for key feel. There are entire keyboards where the switches are "upside down".
They could even be sideways and still work the same way.

[N8N]

Well, it would only make a difference if there's a jumper, diode, or LED associated with the switch.  Looking at the bottom of the switch, the pins are not symmetric so the switch can only go in the PCB one way.  that means that your board was designed, for whatever reason, to use that switch in that orientation.  I'm assuming, of course, that the board worked correctly before you took it apart.

The only time that it would matter which way the switch was oriented, other than to match the design laid out on the PCB, would be for backlit keys.  On the older Cherry boards, the switches are laid out generally with the diode below the stem; I suppose if you wanted to use that space not for a regular diode but for a LED, you'd want the switch rotated 180 degrees so that the LED would be at the top of the key, where the "printing" would be.  Or if you had something like your Caps Lock indicator in the keycap, you'd want the LED oriented to whatever side of the keycap the window was on.

Which reminds me of some keyboard trivia... on the Apple Extended Keyboard II, the F-key switches are rotated 90 degrees to the others.  Not sure why they did that.  It actually makes a difference on Alps switches as unlike Cherries their keycap attachment isn't symmetric every 90 degrees, only every 180 degrees (it's a little rectangle.)

[woody]

Which reminds me of some keyboard trivia... on the Apple Extended Keyboard II, the F-key switches are rotated 90 degrees to the others.  Not sure why they did that.  It actually makes a difference on Alps switches as unlike Cherries their keycap attachment isn't symmetric every 90 degrees, only every 180 degrees (it's a little rectangle.)

They have been naughty before the AEKII.

In this particular case (A9M0330), the top row has so curved profile on the keycaps, that they probably rotated the switches for good or the force distribution would've been bad.

[bpiphany]

The switch orientation actually also matters with the costar stabilizers. I got it correct by pure luck on my first PCB design =P The reason certain switches in the bottom row are "upside down" is almost certain to cater alternative switch location for other key widths on that row on the PCB.

[Findecanor]

Which reminds me of some keyboard trivia... on the Apple Extended Keyboard II, the F-key switches are rotated 90 degrees to the others.  Not sure why they did that.

ALPS switches wobble more in one direction than the other. The F-keys on the AEKII are very high, higher than most other ALPS key caps and therefore they wobble more. This is very apparent if you press those keys when the keyboard case is off.
I suppose that Apple did it this way to make them wobble in the direction that was the least noticeable with the case on.

As far as I have noticed, Cherry switches don't wobble more in any direction.

[TheProfosist]

all of my switches on my SteelSeries 7G are orientated so that the led would be on the top of the switch that is except for the right win and alt key they are turned 90 degrees clockwise compared to the res of the switches.

[The Solutor]

The switch orientation actually also matters with the costar stabilizers. I got it correct by pure luck on my first PCB design =P The reason certain switches in the bottom row are "upside down" is almost certain to cater alternative switch location for other key widths on that row on the PCB.

No is not matter of stabilizers.

Recent Filcos have just cloned the Ducky PCB to allow different layouts on the same PCB.

For the record, on ISO Filcos the enter switch is rotated by 90 degrees.

[The Solutor]

The Deskthority guys think orientation matters but the evidence is anecdotal at best.

Initially I thought was an urban legend too.

Is not, the orientation matters, definitely. At least on tactile switches.

[foxer]

All the switches on the BlackWidow are upside down. o_O

[bpiphany]

No is not matter of stabilizers.

Recent Filcos have just cloned the Ducky PCB to allow different layouts on the same PCB.

For the record, on ISO Filcos the enter switch is rotated by 90 degrees.

I was saying two different things but I might have been a bit unclear. The orientation matters very much when using costar stabilizers. If the ISO enter switch would not have been rotated by 90° the stabilizer would not have worked.

The other reason to rotate a switch is to have room on the PCB for multiple switch locations. This has been done on the Filcos at least since the "gen 1".

[The Solutor]

I was saying two different things but I might have been a bit unclear. The orientation matters very much when using costar stabilizers. If the ISO enter switch would not have been rotated by 90° the stabilizer would not have worked.

I understand perfectly what you wrote, and no the orientation don't matters. The switch can be used in any orientation and it doesn't interfere with the stabilizers.

The other reason to rotate a switch is to have room on the PCB for multiple switch locations.

That's actually the only reason, indeed is used mostly in places w/o any stabilizers

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 23645[/ATTACH]

This has been done on the Filcos at least since the "gen 1"

I've never had to do with 1gen PCBs, but I remember that here all users were puzzled about the "strange" orientation on 2gen filcos, ripster included. So I assumed it was a novelty.

[bpiphany]

I understand perfectly what you wrote, and no the orientation don't matters. The switch can be used in any orientation and it doesn't interfere with the stabilizers.

That's actually the only reason, indeed is used mostly in places w/o any stabilizers

(Attachment Link) 23645[/ATTACH]

I've never had to do with 1gen PCBs, but I remember that here all users were puzzled about the "strange" orientation on 2gen filcos, ripster included. So I assumed it was a novelty.

I'm sorry (well, not really) but you are wrong. A Costar stabilized key will work with the switch oriented 90° wrong, but not achieve full travel. With the switch 180° wrong it will not work well at all.

On the gen1 Filco (at least the full size ISO) it's only the jp-specific switch locations that are turned upside down. That might be why no-one really noticed it.

[The Solutor]

I'm sorry (well, not really)

It's always a pleasure tho find friendly people here on GH

but you are wrong.

GH it's really a strange place, no one is able to accept a word from an experienced and trusted user.

One have to post samples, videos, photos about everything, like in a legal trial.

I'm starting to get bored by this behavior, but whatever...



So tell me where's the problem...

It's true in the config 3 and 4 the hinge doesn't touch the plate, is raised by a mm or so, but this is not enough to limit the key's travel.

On the gen1 Filco (at least the full size ISO) it's only the jp-specific switch locations that are turned upside down. That might be why no-one really noticed it.

Looks as a reasonable explanation, thanks.

[bpiphany]

It's always a pleasure tho find friendly people here on GH

GH it's really a strange place, no one is able to accept a word from an experienced and trusted user.

One have to post samples, videos, photos about everything, like in a legal trial.

I'm starting to get bored by this behavior, but whatever...

Show Image

So tell me where's the problem...

It's true in the config 3 and 4 the hinge doesn't touch the plate, is raised by a mm or so, but this is not enough to limit the key's travel.

Then try fitting a keycap onto there and see how well it works. It does work but not as intended.

 In config 1 the wire should be even further away from touching the plate than in 3 and 4. It might still be possible to actuate the switch but it will not "work".

[bpiphany]

It's always a pleasure tho find friendly people here on GH

GH it's really a strange place, no one is able to accept a word from an experienced and trusted user.

One have to post samples, videos, photos about everything, like in a legal trial.

I'm starting to get bored by this behavior, but whatever...

You are accusing me of being incorrect. I am the one on trial. It is up to you to provide the evidence. But yes it is just a tad extra fun to prove someone as obnoxious as yo wrong. I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that. If you would just stick to things you actually knew anything about GH would be ~2000 posts more correct

[The Solutor]

Then try fitting a keycap onto there and see how well it works

Obviously was the first test I did

The thickness of the two white inserts on the key is more or less 1.5mm, maybe more (I don't have a caliper handy), so unless the hinge is raised more than that (and is not) there isn't anything  that limit the key travel and it feels no different in any of the 4 combination, even the slight difference in tactility seen on small keys is not present here, because the vertical stabilizer make the force perpendicular to the key plane

[bpiphany]

If the wire is even close to touching the plate in your config 1, your costar stabilizers are very different from mine.

[bpiphany]

Obviously was the first test I did

The thickens of the two white insert on the key is more or less 1.5mm, maybe more (I don't have a caliper handy), so unless the hinge is raised more than that (and is not) there isn't anything  that limit the key travel and it feels no different in any of the 4 combination, even the slight difference in tactility seen on small keys is not present here, because the vertical stabilizer make the force perpendicular to the key plane

If the wire is even close to touching the plate in your config 1, your costar stabilizers are very different from mine. The problem also isn't how much the white inserts add in height. The problem is the wire getting jammed between the switch and the keycap. Edit: This actually depends a little on the exact kaycap shape. But travel is still impaired already from the wire hitting the switch.

[The Solutor]

You are accusing me of being incorrect.

I'm accusing nobody.

I'm just used to open my mouth when I'm sure or, at least, reasonably sure, about what I'm saying.

And I'm used to be trusted after a reasonable amount of correct sentences/posts/whatever.

For some reason this doesn't apply here.

I've been accused of faking samples, of posting absurd theories,  and so on and I'm tired. That's what I'm saying

I'm sorry (well, not really)

And this phrase surely doesn't helps.

[Findecanor]

Oh, I have been on other boards where people have blatantly ignored my picture evidence (with multiple sharp pictures taken from different angles and different sources) because the other opinion is "common knowledge".. Misconceptions can be long-lived. ;-)

I find it likely that there would be several types of "Costar-style" stabilizers. This way of mounting stabilizer mounts to plates is much older than Costar. There are variations seen for ALPS, SMK "Montereys", fake Cherry keyboards etc.

[bpiphany]

I'm accusing nobody.

I'm just used to open my mouth when I'm sure or, at least, reasonably sure, about what I'm saying.

And I'm used to be trusted after a reasonable amount of correct sentences/posts/whatever.

For some reason this doesn't apply here.

I've been accused of faking samples, of posting absurd theories,  and so on and I'm tired. That's what I'm saying

I made a simple statement that the orientation matters with stabilizers. You disputed this. I specified how it matters. You still persist it doesn't. Perhaps accusing is a too harsh word but I still think you would be the one doing the disputing. Your picture is a step in the right direction even if it doesn't show the problem or lack thereof.

These stabilizers are taken from a tenkeyless gen 2 Filco, the plate and keycaps as well. In the second picture the leftmost switch is compressed fully, the other one is pushed until the wire hits the switch. It's hard to see the amount of difference in the picture. It was also kind of hard to measure the exact difference (keys are a bit wobbly to start, and I don't have appropriate tools at home). The difference is noticeable though, perhaps close to a mm and the bottoming out becomes very mushy when other parts than the spring start to flex. The impact with the switch turned 180° wrong is bad enough I don't think I need to demonstrate it =P
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 23683[/ATTACH]
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 23682[/ATTACH]

Yes there might be different Costar(-style) stabilizers but there is still only a limited amount of space between the switch and the keycap. I have a hard time seeing where the wire would fit if it were made not to touch an erroneously oriented switch.

I understand perfectly what you wrote, and no the orientation don't matters. The switch can be used in any orientation and it doesn't interfere with the stabilizers.

This is then obviously a false statement,

So tell me where's the problem...
It's true in the config 3 and 4 the hinge doesn't touch the plate, is raised by a mm or so, but this is not enough to limit the key's travel.

verified by The Solutor himself.

[bpiphany]

Just for the sake of completeness i guess. (As our electro mechanics teacher would say when he had to derive something "obvious".)

The switch to the left is correctly aligned, the one to the right is 180° wrong. The first switch is bottomed out, the second pressed to the point where the stabilizer interferes. Combining a stabilizer with a diode also has potential to make a geekhacker unhappy... Sorry about the crappier photo quality.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 24534[/ATTACH]

[The Solutor]

Indeed the optional diode will surely interfere with the stabilizer, it's pretty evident in my photo too.

At least a standard round one

[squarebox]

GH it's really a strange place, no one is able to accept a word from an experienced and trusted user.

One have to post samples, videos, photos about everything, like in a legal trial.

I'm starting to get bored by this behavior, but whatever...

I know how you feel. I feel the same way and I believe Ripster does so too.

[bpiphany]

The problem is that The Solutor is a zealot of his own crazy ideas. Nothing he says can obviously be trusted as shown above. Everything has to be confirmed independently. If he just straightened out his ways of presenting his own ideas as facts I am sure he could contribute better.

Flooding >2000 posts of dubious factual content, or endless bickering over irrelevancies, the first six months doesn't constitute any grounds to brag about trusted senior membership in my ears.

So, The Solutor, just pull it together! I am sure your intentions are good.

[The Solutor]

The problem is that The Solutor is a zealot of his own crazy ideas.

Oh, yes...

Crazy...

If he just straightened out his ways of presenting his own ideas as facts I am sure he could contribute better.

FYI I'm used to verify any single thing I post, and I'm so committed with this (uncommon I'm afraid) behavior, that sometimes I waste some money just to verify what I've guessed.

And the pinging filco is just the latest example.

Flooding >2000 posts of dubious factual content

So tellme what was your contribution here.

In less than a month months I tested any cherry mx switch, and any combination, I modded a board to ergo clears, I suggested the use of the silicone o-rings to reduce the noise.

I gartered more information about the pinging and ringing problems than a anyone else, I explained how to use the switchometer to quickly verify the evenness of a board, I've suggested what paint to use to have better results painting a keyboard, I modded a board to have white/colored/dual colored legends.

I've suggested how to solder and desolder properly and easily, I helped more than an user to get its keyboard working just looking at the PCB in a photo and so on...

And that's is what I did HERE in the last months.

Do you want to know what I did in the previous 30 years ?

So I couldn't care less about that kind of critics.

I replied to what you wrote just because I was working on a project that involves some rotated switches, so I was pretty aware of the argument, not because I randomly decided that PrinsValium was wrong.

I'm sure you will never find another person used to be more relevant than me, in case just drop a message I'll be glad to meet that person.

[keyboardlover]

Most of the folks who voted in my poll felt that GH started going downhill when you started trolling like a madman.

That started well before the troll poll.

[keyboardlover]

I was never upset about that, lol.

I don't get butthurt like some people around here who threaten to move their wikis because of a little troll poll. At least MW took his temp ban like a man.

[keyboardlover]

I know you didn't get banned. Because of your threats.

[keyboardlover]

I do.

[Arcanius]

Now, this was a nice thread before you two started hating. Please, just stop. I believe you're both good members of the community, nobody can deny that both of you have contributed to Geekhack, but please, knock it off, go contribute to the info here rather than to the developing atmosphere and trolling and hate.

[keyboardlover]

np.

He started it.

You ALWAYS start it.

Leave me out of this, I'm busy with KL and Ping.  Everything at Geekhack went downhill when KL did that now banned troll poll.

Let me know when you guys work it all out.

[Arcanius]

Well, it was only half-trolly. Now you two just made it a flame war. iMav should ban you both for a week.

Okay, not really, but still.

[REVENGE]

Regarding the original topic, a few observations:

1. Normal vs upside down switch orientations limit what type of transparent key caps you can use with a backlit switch. For example, you can't swap a Deck or iOne Esc onto the Poker's Esc switch and expect the lighting to shine through the text.
2. Stems that are rotated +/- 90 degrees from normal can affect the fitting of normal key caps. For example, you can replace the 0 and 00 keys on the Goldtouch variety keypads with standard Cherry key caps and they would wobble north to south unless you rotated the key cap 90 degrees as well.

[REVENGE]

I measured the keystems as being 4.00/1.00mm cruciforms +/-.03mm  in either orientation.  One looks a bit thinner in the pics because of champfering on the very top.  I'll stick under a microscope sometime.
So I don't think it's a switch orientation issue unless stabilizers are involved.

I don't think it's a stem issue, rather a key cap issue. Try taking some of your different key caps and fitting them sideways on a switch. I find that the Goldtouch keycaps fit fine in whichever orientation, but my vintage Cherry doubleshots do not. My Poker's PBT caps refuse to fit sideways at all.

[Mazora]

I thought you guys were friends ? isnt this a kb forum anywayz !

[REVENGE]

Maybe.  Not Signature Plastics.

I recently added this to the Cherry MX Stem after arguing in the "My Red Cherries have smaller stems" thread.   I like Socratic debate as a way of furthering Keyboard Science.  Some people at Geekhack hate that style.

Show Image

Good tolerance(s).

[Ctn]

Maybe.  Not Signature Plastics.

I recently added this to the Cherry MX Stem after arguing in the "My Red Cherries have smaller stems" thread.   I like Socratic debate as a way of furthering Keyboard Science.  Some people at Geekhack hate that style.

Show Image

Good find !

See here: http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20569-Different-Cherry-MX-stem-size&p=400675&viewfull=1#post400675