Ancient brown cherries lost their feel, what to do?

[jpc]

I have a mid-90s Kinesis contoured board with brown cherries. This board has 300,000 miles on the odometer, and some of the switches feel gummy, stiff, and less tactile than they should. My other mid-90s Kinesis has had an easier life, it does not feel gummy at all.

Can old cherries be cleaned and revived?

I know that Kinesis sells new key wells and of course whole new boards, with red or brown switches. (And the reds are tempting!) First I want to know if it's possible to spruce up the existing switches by some means. Waste not, want not.

[noodles256]

cant teach an old dog new tricks.

[pitashen]

If they are not metal plate mounted, you should be able to pop the switch cap off easy and clean the inside or replace the switch components.

[N8N]

is a Kinesis PCB mount or plate mount?  If PCB mount you could try removing all the stems and springs, cleaning and lubing the stems, and reassembling.  Not sure what would be most appropriate for cleaning the PCB, although I imagine that there ought to be some kind of aerosol spray intended for same.  I'd be tempted to try something like Deoxit, but that is expensive and I don't know if it's perfectly safe for getting on the PCB.  (should be fine for the switches.)

Now if it's a plate mount, by the time you factor in the labor of desoldering/resoldering and the fact that the above method may or may not actually bring it back to life, you might just want to bite the bullet and buy 104 (or whatever) new switches, expensive though that may be.  Or a cheap new board with browns that you can shoot in the head, which is likely cheaper although more labor intensive.

NB: I'm a complete hypocrite as I'm working myself up to putting clear stems in my Filco, but I have tested them in a G80 board and discarded the ones that seemed off.  That, and it seems really silly to spend $200 on parts to mod a $160 keyboard. (since it's damn near impossible to buy a new G80-3000 here, I'd have to order individual switches.)

[Findecanor]

is a Kinesis PCB mount or plate mount?

Both. The finger-keys in the curved key wells are plate-mounted, soldered to flexible PCBs. The thumb-keys are mounted only on rigid PCBs.

[jpc]

Just got back from the Cherry Switch Swapping article and if I understand this right, plate mounted cherries cannot be opened without desoldering.

So, not as easy as opening ALPS. Hmm.

[REVENGE]

Just got back from the Cherry Switch Swapping article and if I understand this right, plate mounted cherries cannot be opened without desoldering.

So, not as easy as opening ALPS. Hmm.

Good luck reviving them even if you desolder. The tactile bump has most likely eroded by now.

[sordna]

All cherry switches on the Kinesis are the W variety (with pins for PCB mount) AFAIK, but on the wells they are mounted on these plastic wells (wouldn't call them plates either).

In any case, would removing keycaps and just spraying or dripping some lube around the switch stem so it flows into the switch help ? Has anyone tried this?

[oddsratio]

You can always take them apart and sell them like reds

[jpc]

would removing keycaps and just spraying or dripping some lube around the switch stem so it flows into the switch help ?

I may try this.

My first attempt was to remove keycaps, hold the switch partway down and blow air into them. Result: no change.

What type of lube would be best? I have light machine oil, this would flow into the switch. I also have some silicone grease, this is thicker, almost a paste, it's not clear how to apply it. There's also WD-40... that could work, and it's unlikely to hurt.

I'm not sure the stems are actually worn. It's only some keys, for example ";" and "J" are bad, their neighbors are OK. I would think that wear would occur on more frequently used keys. Whatever this problem is, it's something that can affect any key. Maybe debris, maybe loss of factory-installed lube?

[jpc]

Oops, the discussion sort of moved here.

In summary, WD-40 totally fixed those gummy cherry keys.

[N8N]

I kinda hate WD-40 (from an amateur mechanic's perspective...)  but in this case it might actually be appropriate.  It's really more of a solvent than a lubricant, but I suspect that that is what you needed in the first place.

[sordna]

It's a good sign that WD40 worked! However keep in mind that WD40 contains mostly solvents, and its lubricating effect is temporary. I would finish the job by spraying some compressed air to get the solvents out, and lubricate with mineral oil, or PTFE (teflon) dry lubricant. You can do some switches with one, some with the other, and see which has the better/long lasting effect. We really lack a lubricant comparison article for old cherry switches here at geekhack!

[jpc]

Yeah, agreed, WD-40 is only a temporary lubricant in most cases.

This particular Kinesis may have been a drink spill victim. All sticky keys were in the right hand key well, that's no coincidence. So you're right, the solvent could be perfect. The pressurized spray works well in this scenario too, to push the WD-40 in and the crud out.

[jpc]

sordna: I'll repeat this with mineral oil if the effect wears off.

Could dry PTFE prevent the switch from closing electrically? That makes me nervous.

I wonder if lubricants could reduce the actuation force of ALPS. Probably not but I'm gonna try it. GH is missing an "ALPS, now available in ergonomic low force" article.

[jpc]

Interesting: gun owners chat online about what oil to use.

[jpc]

Keyboard science results are in.

3-in-1 oil on the slider of a black ALPS reduces the actuation force to about 60g, down from about 65g. The switch feels smoother too. This could be a good upgrade if you are forced to live with black ALPS for some reason.

[Oqsy]

Keyboard science results are in.

3-in-1 oil on the slider of a black ALPS reduces the actuation force to about 60g, down from about 65g. The switch feels smoother too. This could be a good upgrade if you are forced to live with black ALPS for some reason.

Recession = more black ALPS, fewer Topre. Wait nm, economics is taboo here.

[jpc]

Hahaha

Depression = professional adults with jobs, buying computer peripherals instead of houses, cars, and vacations... ?

Economics is always welcome! It's fascinating! We have this complex decentralized system (the economy) that we all depend on. Except it's unreliable. The power grid is reliable, the internet is reliable, even the space shuttle got home safe 98.5% of the time. So what's going on?

[BababooeyHTJ]

I kinda hate WD-40 (from an amateur mechanic's perspective...)  but in this case it might actually be appropriate.  It's really more of a solvent than a lubricant, but I suspect that that is what you needed in the first place.

WD-40 is great for steel. It eats rust. WD-40 has revived many a tool that looks rusted beyond repair.

The thing that worries me about silicone lube and some dry lubricants is that in my experience they gum up over time.

Interesting: gun owners chat online about what oil to use.

There is some good info in that thread.

[Bird]

Is there some kind of wiki or guide that shows you how to open a pcb mounted cherry switch without desoldering? (ripster?)
Thanks in advance.

[jpc]

Is there some kind of wiki or guide that shows you how to open a pcb mounted cherry switch without desoldering?

This would allow me to swap the key wells and thumb clusters on this Kinesis, eg. with reds.

I like linear switches with an artificial click noise so it should work great on the Kinesis.

[keyboardlover]

Is there some kind of wiki or guide that shows you how to open a pcb mounted cherry switch without desoldering? (ripster?)
Thanks in advance.

Check out the ergo clears link in my Sig.

[Bird]

Thanks that video was exactly what i needed!
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12790

[The Solutor]

If the keyboard has lost the tactility (that tiny bit of tactility it had when brand new) there's no lubricant that can help.

Usually the stems are worn, but even leaf springs can be loose.

So at least the stems should be replaced either with brand new browns, or (better) with some clears.

If you mind to stay with browns I have some of them (brand new)

[jpc]

I wouldn't mind if the tactility was reduced. The problem was more a sticky gummy sluggishness in some of the keys. Old cola or beer...?

After WD-40 they feel pretty much better. At least for now. The tactility is still there.

[N8N]

Thanks that video was exactly what i needed!
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12790

As an alternate to that method, you can use two small flat screwdrivers to pop the latches from directly above.  There was a video somewhere of the method but I'll be damned if I can find it now.

[Bird]

One of my blue keys has had a very quite klick and some kind of strange feel to it right out of the box. I will open it up once i can get some WD-40 and compressed air in my hands. I'll open it and try my best to make it clickier. I hope it's not the stem itself that's deformed out of the box. Did that ever happen to anyone?

[jpc]

You don't need to open a switch to apply WD-40.

Just pop the cap, depress the switch a bit, and use the red tube to guide the WD-40 into the space between the stem and switch body.

That's what I did. The entire switch body fills up with WD-40 pretty quick.

[Bird]

Yeah, maybe i should try this first. Can still open it if it doesn't work to take a closer look. How long will the lubrication of WD-40 last?

[Bird]

What?!

edit: still no capslock for me ._.

[jpc]

Sure, WD-40 won't stop you from opening it up. It's not an adhesive.

WD-40 is also a solvent, it has a chance of dissolving or washing away any foreign matter that's gotten into the switch.

Disclaimer. I've used WD-40 on browns, not blues, YMMV.

WD-40 is usually not permanent as a lubricant, it breaks down. But if all you need is the solvent the effect could be a permanent fix.

[Bird]

Yeah, that article sums up the ingredients, but does it tell me how long it will actually lubricate my switch? Did I miss something?

Edit: @jpc: Will it also wash away the standard lubricant being applied when assebled? Does anybody know which kind of lubricant cherry uses?

[Bird]

So theres no stuff on the white moving part that makes it slide better past the red thingy? See link...

It' dangerous to go alone! Take this!

One further Question: Could the reason for a quiter 'click' and different feel be a bent red thing? Like bent more outwards or smth?

[Bird]

Yeah, i love putting my ear to the board, slowly depressing a key and listen to that "Mexican Jumping Bean". Makes me feel warm inside... [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 24621[/ATTACH]

[jpc]

@jpc: Will it also wash away the standard lubricant being applied when assebled?

I don't know. Ripster is the Chem E.

I wouldn't have used WD-40 if the switches weren't trashed already. It was a last ditch effort. I half expected that the WD-40 would cause trouble. Then I could swap in reds ...  my real agenda ... so it was secretly an attempt to kill the browns, which failed.

[sordna]

Does it look like the WD40 provided a permanent fix for you? Switches still feel good?

[Bird]

My father also said WD-40 might not be the best solution. Might still have an effect on clickyness. If it's just not enough lubricant in the switch, would some silicon spray do the trick? Or would this ruin my contacts?

[The Solutor]

If I don't shoot myself testing it.

Double shot is more likely...:party:

[Bird]

I just opened two switches, couldnt see anything suspicious. I then exchanged stem+white thingy and spring and voilą, both keys have excellent clickyness and tactility. Don't ask me why, must have been the keyboard jesus. If that position isn't already taken by ripster.

[Bry]

cant teach an old dog new tricks.

 
Always sniping new topics to deliver useless one-liners, yet it never gets old XD

[bluecar5556]

Ripster has the right idea, the use of a lubricant that is similar to what Cherry Corp. uses.  The problem with WD-40 is it's detergent based meaning it has an affinity for dirt similar to anti-freeze has for moisture (hygroscopic.)  Silicone is probably the best option and applying as Cherry Corp does, disassembled and only to the two rails.  Silicone is what is used to lubricate the window regulator track, where the window on a car glides on, and last in humid dusty/dirty environments without any "muck" adhered to it.  

It was fairly easy to remove all the switches on the kinesis without solder wick or de-soldering pump, let me know if need help removing them if you decide to go that route.

[jpc]

Does it look like the WD40 provided a permanent fix for you? Switches still feel good?

Five days later, yes, these cherries are feeling fine.

[bluecar5556]

WD-40, permanent fix.  Boy, it's been a while since i've heard those two words used in one sentence.  WD-40 (Water Displacement - 40th try) main purpose is a penetrating lubricant for getting seized fasteners loosened up similar to the product "liquid wrench."  Anyone who uses detergent based lubricants for products that are not water tight (sealed from the atmosphere, such as detergent based lubes in transmissions, power steering systems and differentials on vehicles, for instance) will be in for a surprise in the long run, but don't take my word for it.

[jpc]

Haha. Okay, I can drip something else into the switches to replace the WD40. What do you recommend bluecar?

[The Solutor]

I would use a dry spray contact cleaner to remove the wd 40 and then a proper lubricant (lithium grease or teflon lubricant).

[bluecar5556]

What The Solutor said but wanted to add a word of caution, telfon by DuPont aka PTFE "PolyTetraFluoroEthylene" is the best lubricant known to mankind and for good reason, it's main constituent is Fluoride.  Contrary to water fluoridation, toothpaste ingredient and non-stick coating on cookware, it is ridiculously toxic in that it's application is to dumb down the population by reducing IQ.  Since many use these products daily and considering the bioaccumulative properties of fluoride, it's probably not of much concern if it did find it's way from the keyboard, on food, and into the bloodstream.  Still, a little goes a long way in the right places.  At least it's application as a rat poison will prevent them from devouring your keyboard because they don't have a superior immune system such as ours.

[bluecar5556]

I'll be reviewing this at Deskthority.net.  The signal to noise ratio is too low at Geekhack.org with all the Senior Tools and Ripster Hate is lower (surprisingly).  Overclock.net is the place to get general advice without being trolled to death.
(Attachment Link) 25026[/ATTACH] (Attachment Link) 25027[/ATTACH]

I used to be egotistical in Elementary school and friends were dwindling faster than fly traps kill flies.  Stopped being self indulged and was blown away how people treated me differently.

[video=youtube_share;EL8e2ujXe8g]http://youtu.be/EL8e2ujXe8g[/video]

Gecko's don't stand a chance sticking to that stuff, thinking they are sly.

Humans 1
Gecko's 0

[The Solutor]

What The Solutor said but wanted to add a word of caution, telfon by DuPont aka PTFE "PolyTetraFluoroEthylene" is the best lubricant known to mankind and for good reason, it's main constituent is Fluoride.  Contrary to water fluoridation, toothpaste ingredient and non-stick coating on cookware, it is ridiculously toxic in that it's application is to dumb down the population by reducing IQ.  Since many use these products daily and considering the bioaccumulative properties of fluoride, it's probably not of much concern if it did find it's way from the keyboard, on food, and into the bloodstream.  Still, a little goes a long way in the right places.  At least it's application as a rat poison will prevent them from devouring your keyboard because they don't have a superior immune system such as ours.

PTFE lubricant is a solid lubricant, is just PTFE powder suspended in a liquid, so unless that liquid it's toxic ptfe is perfectly safe from room temperature to 200+ Celsius.

Teflon is known as one of the less reactive material in absolute there's practically no acid, or organic solvent that attack it, and is often used on human prosthesis and in the alimentary industry.

Is likely the safest chemical after the water.

BTW your concerns are more than founded for the workers on the plants where the PTFE is made, as the components can be highly toxic if not correctly contained.

[The Solutor]

Envy is also dangerous for the human health :biggrin: