Author Topic: Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time  (Read 12450 times)

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Offline bpiphany

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Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #50 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 04:25:50 »
I didn't claim anything more than that a keyboard should be symmetric. And that follows from very basic assumptions and pure logic. The amount of stagger (or whatever other shape the layout is) plays no role in my statement. If a certain layout is "the best" for your left hand, the mirrored layout is going to be as good ("the best") for your right hand. Feel free to point out the flaw in that logic.
« Last Edit: Tue, 30 August 2011, 04:28:14 by PrinsValium »

Offline hella

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Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #51 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 05:53:04 »
It's still vastly oversimplified.  Angling the keyboard changes your hand's positioning.  I really could write a book about this topic given the amount of research I've done, but the bottom line is staggering keys with angling do give you better positioning to reduce forces on your fingers and tendons in comparison to a straight layout with, or without angling.  

You'll need pictures to understand everything buddy.  If you're really interested I'd be glad to take them dude.

Offline hella

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Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #52 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 05:56:59 »
With that being said, the only situation where straight aligned keys is comparable to staggered keys is when the straight keys are spread far apart (about 10 inches, YMMV based on your shoulder width).

Boards like the Kinesis Advantage demonstrate this well.  This layout and a split keyboard approximately 4-5 inches apart with a 6-12 degree angle of separation are two great ergonomical positions.

Offline RiGS

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Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #53 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 05:59:53 »
I keep hitting the R and U with my middle finger instead of my index finger.
Pressing those keys with the index finger seems counterintuitive for me, especially in situations where H is followed by U(human, humour).
Also using my index finger for hitting those keys force my wrist into an ulnar-deviated position which leads to wrist pain.
Last edited by RiGS; Jan 2011

Offline bpiphany

  • Posts: 1033
  • Location: Stockholm, Sweden
  • bpiph is a special type of crazy. //mkawa
Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #54 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 06:46:06 »
@hella, you are simply not listening to what I am saying. I stand by my statement that keyboards should be symmetric, whatever staggering or not they have.

Offline sordna

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Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #55 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 10:38:38 »
@hella, I understand what you're saying by angling a standard keyboard to simulate straight columns, but the left side would be further away from you than the right side. It's really suboptimal.

You are right that distancing the hands like the Kinesis does is good. However, you can keep the hands close together, as long as the design provides an increased angle of the 2 halves. The truly ergonomic is an example, although the angle on it is not enough.

Now here is a keyboard with *symmetric* staggering, the uTron. Symmetric is definitely better and more natural, as PrinsValium is correctly saying:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25328[/ATTACH]
Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline hella

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Topre Realforce all 45g ANSI (White) available for the first time
« Reply #56 on: Tue, 30 August 2011, 13:35:48 »
Thanks for the clarification.  Symmetrical staggering would reduce hand fatigue :)