AEKII vs. Tactile Pro 3 and a craziness check

[iindigo]

Hey guys, first post here.

I'm looking to buy a nice mechanical keyboard to pair up with my iMac some time in the near future. I've done a considerable amount of research, trying to figure out what's good and what might fit my needs/preferences, reading reviews, etc. It would seem that Mac users are rather restricted if they want to keep a Mac key layout... yeah I know you can remap, but it's just not the same (especially since so many keyboards have that pointless menu key to the right of the spacebar). As far as I can tell, that gives me two options: 1) Buy a Matias Tactile Pro 3 or 2) grab an old Apple Extended Keyboard II and an ADB --> USB adapter.

How does the Tactile Pro stack up against the AEKII? Obviously the latter is more heavily built, but aside from that, what's different?

Also, I've seen command and option keys for Das Keyboards buzzing around, but they're nowhere to be found on Das' website. Were they discontinued?

Finally, is it crazy of me to go looking for a brand new, unused AEKII? Do those even still exist? If so, are they hard to find or expensive?


Sorry for all the questions, I really do appreciate your help.

[theferenc]

Welcome to geekhack, iindigo. To answer your questions:

I'm looking to buy a nice mechanical keyboard to pair up with my iMac some time in the near future. I've done a considerable amount of research, trying to figure out what's good and what might fit my needs/preferences, reading reviews, etc. It would seem that Mac users are rather restricted if they want to keep a Mac key layout... yeah I know you can remap, but it's just not the same (especially since so many keyboards have that pointless menu key to the right of the spacebar). As far as I can tell, that gives me two options: 1) Buy a Matias Tactile Pro 3 or 2) grab an old Apple Extended Keyboard II and an ADB --> USB adapter.

There's also the option of Unicomp SpaceSaver M, which is also an excellent choice.

How does the Tactile Pro stack up against the AEKII? Obviously the latter is more heavily built, but aside from that, what's different?

Having owned both, I find them equally pleasing to type on, but I will say they are quite different in feel. Also, the Tactile Pro is significantly easier to deal with, due to the lack of needing an adapter. The AEKII is softer feeling, more similar to a rubber dome in feel, due to the dampers installed on the sliders. The Tactile Pro is unabashedly loud and tactile. While not technically "clicky" in the sense of White ALPS, they are definitely more clicky than the AEKII in terms of sound.

Also, I've seen command and option keys for Das Keyboards buzzing around, but they're nowhere to be found on Das' website. Were they discontinued?

As far as I know, they were, but contacting Metadot (the company that produces the Das) directly would answer that question better than we ever could.

Finally, is it crazy of me to go looking for a brand new, unused AEKII? Do those even still exist? If so, are they hard to find or expensive?

Yes, yes it is crazy. I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If you could, it would be likely nearly as expensive as a Tactile Pro, but still have the downside of needing an adapter.

Sorry for all the questions, I really do appreciate your help.

Hopefully I was able to help a bit.

[iindigo]

There's also the option of Unicomp SpaceSaver M, which is also an excellent choice.

Well that's certainly interesting looking... feels odd seeing the modernish media key features on such an aged-looking keyboard . I'll certainly consider it. Don't buckling-spring keyboards have a heavier, harder-to-press feel?

Yes, yes it is crazy. I've never seen one, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. If you could, it would be likely nearly as expensive as a Tactile Pro, but still have the downside of needing an adapter.

Ahh well, 'twas worth a try, no?

Thank you for the reply!

[False_Dmitry_II]

If all you've used is rubber domes then no. It doesn't. And yes, they totally need to work on the looks of their boards some. Not that I care or they have the equipment to do so.


How is the matias not clicky? It would just be a simplified alps of some sort. Which would totally be one of the clicky variants.


There is a NIB one in the classifieds right now by the way.

Also, if you're a wizard (or not so much) with a soldering iron, you can also choose a board and switches separately. But once you enter that it's anyones guess what is best.

[theferenc]

I was under the distinct impression that the switches in the Matias were officially tactile, but not clicky, similiar to the blacks in the Dell. Especially since they are nowhere near as clicky as the white ALPS in, say, a Focus.

But I don't think the buckling springs in a new unicomp are any heavier than the simplified ALPS in a Matias. At least, they don't feel any heavier, to my fingers. But then, I think brown MX switches are WAY too light, so what do I know.

[The Solutor]

Don't buckling-spring keyboards have a heavier, harder-to-press feel?

Definitely.

Modern Alps have also the actuation point at the beginning of the keystroke that made them feel softer even when the force needed is the same as other switches.

[ch_123]

Having owned both, I find them equally pleasing to type on, but I will say they are quite different in feel. Also, the Tactile Pro is significantly easier to deal with, due to the lack of needing an adapter. The AEKII is softer feeling, more similar to a rubber dome in feel, due to the dampers installed on the sliders. The Tactile Pro is unabashedly loud and tactile. While not technically "clicky" in the sense of White ALPS, they are definitely more clicky than the AEKII in terms of sound.

I thought the Tactile Pro had some sort of clicky switches nowadays.

Don't buckling-spring keyboards have a heavier, harder-to-press feel?

Depends on the Alps in question. Most are around the same, or only slightly lighter.

Modern Alps have also the actuation point at the beginning of the keystroke that made them feel softer even when the force needed is the same as other switches.

Also means that they bottom out hard because you are concentrating all the force at the start of the travel.

[The Solutor]

Also means that they bottom out hard because you are concentrating all the force at the start of the travel.

My feeling is exactly the opposite.

The keyboard where i bottom out less is an XM board.

[iindigo]

Hmm, interesting.

Would anybody care to comment on their experiences with creaking plastic and pinging on the Tactile Pro? Those are concerns that are driving me away from it.

Also, are there any quantifiable differences between the genuine alps and mitsumi models of AEKII?

[Gerk]

The Tactile pro 3 are very very LOUD.  Mine is so loud that it's almost unusable for me, my wife complains about it when she is a floor above me in my house.  It's a very solid keyboard but honestly I'm less than impressed with it due to the volume factor.  It's a LOT louder than the original AEII for sure.

Second, if you're using a modern OSX version don't bother with an older board and a USB->ADB adapter.  From what I've read Apple pulled the ADB drivers out since 10.6 -- 10.5 was the last OS that had them, so if you're using a newer mac it's almost certain that you don't have ADB drivers.

I use various mechanical keyboards on my macs, the only thing you really have to do as far as remapping (and you don't even really have to do it) is swapping the modifiers keys so that the option and command keys are in the traditional places for them.  You can do this with keyboard control panel built right into the OS so you don't even need additional third party software to do the remapping of them.  Total time required is about 3 seconds and you'll never have to do it again (at least on that system/OS version).  Not a big deal at all.

While I do appreciate the TP3 it's just not usable for me on a day to day basis, it's literally 2-3 times louder than my next loudest board (a Cherry MX Blue based Leopold tenkeyless).  I've been using a Das lately with cherry MX browns and am really enjoying it ... good tactile response and much much quieter than the TP3.  I'm actually at the point where I'm considering selling the TP3 as I just don't see it getting much use going forward.

P.S. The white alps in the latest TP3 are very different feeling and sounding than the switches in the AE keyboards (both I and II).  I have tried them side-by-side and while they are the same technology they feel a LOT different.

I'd widen your options as far as selecting a keyboard personally, aside from the (useless on MacOS) windows menu key there's not really much of a difference to worry about.

[Gerk]

Hmm, interesting.

Would anybody care to comment on their experiences with creaking plastic and pinging on the Tactile Pro? Those are concerns that are driving me away from it.

Also, are there any quantifiable differences between the genuine alps and mitsumi models of AEKII?

I forgot to comment on this ... not only is there some Ping! going on here (quite loud in fact) there's also a longer ringing after the fact, especially if you are typing with any sort of speed.  The ringing from the plate on mine is so loud it almost drowns out the key clicks -- and it even happens if you're not typing super hard and bottoming out the keys big time.  If this is a factor for you them avoid the TP3 for sure.

[iindigo]

Gerk, thanks for sharing your experience. If it's really that bad I probably won't be purchasing a TP3. Let's hope the TP4 (whenever it debuts) will fix these glaring problems.

And as stated in the OP, I am aware of remapping but really would rather not have to. I will if it's really necessary, though. Are there any full keyboards that don't have that useless contextual menu key to the right of the spacebar? You know, this guy:


I never use it when working on Windows PCs and it shrinks the keys that I DO use. Without its presence I could probably make due with remapping and swapping keycaps.

You're right in that Mac OS X 10.6 and above don't include ADB drivers, but adapters like the iMate seem to translate anything ADB-specific to USB and so it still works with 10.6+. A quick google shows that there are people still using their AEKII's with 10.6. Not sure if that's the case for the cool little Teensy-based adapters seen on these forums, though.

[Gerk]

Hmm that's odd about the iMate ... I have a buddy who owns one (and an original AEII) and it stopped working for him when he did the 10.6 update and it doesn't work for him in Lion ... maybe he's just smoking crack or something then but shhhh, don't tell him because he said he's giving me back the AEII (which I gave him many years ago) since he can't use it any longer  Maybe I'll have to pick up an iMate and test things for myself hehe.

I don't know of any keyboards without that key offhand (I just mostly ignore it personally).  I don't mind that the keys that I use are smaller because honestly I don't use the modifier keys on that side of the keyboard, ever, so at least for me I don't really care  Others can probably point you in the right direction on that regard.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Wow ... Razer BlackWidow in Macintosh layout – I did not expect to see that. Found it by accident when trying to locate the DSI Modular Mac. I checked, and yes, the BlackWidow Mac does have proper command and option keys, although there's an extra key between right option and right control, and the key widths of the meta keys correspond to those of the Windows version.

Both Cherry switches, if you want an alternative to ALPS for a Macintosh. I've never used an AEK II, but I do have a TP3 and I get the same awful ping that Gerk mentions, and yes it's very loud, but that's ALPS for you. It's also pretty stiff -- it's a strong fingers keyboard. The Cherry alternatives will be much softer on your fingers!

I am afraid that your soul will know no rest until you've bought each of the Spacesaver Mac (buckling spring), DSI Modular Mac (Cherry MX brown), BlackWindow Ultimate (Cherry MX blue) and of course the Tactile Pro 3 (Fukka white ALPS) and compared them all … Sorry.

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Are there any full keyboards that don't have that useless contextual menu key to the right of the spacebar?

Not unless it's exotic. The standard Model M layout has only Ctrl and Alt either side of space. Apple were sensible and put three keys on each side. When the Microsoft Natural keyboard was introduced im 1994, the left gap was filled with a single key (Windows) and the right gap, by two (Windows and Application), and that's what any normal PC keyboard will have. Sadly the Unicomp Spacesaver M retains the four-on-the-right PC layout, as does the BlackWindow Ultimate, presumably to avoid retooling costs for minority products. The DSI Modular Mac is a compact arrangement but does at least omit a bogus key.

I can't off the top of my head think of another dedicated Macintosh keyboard that has the correct layout: sadly that is what the TP3 is there for, but at the cost of ping and heavy, stiff and particularly switches, and a grotesque case that looks bad even by Apple's white-era style, which Apple have long since moved from.

Mac options are very limited.

[theferenc]

Personally, even for Mac use, I prefer the 101 key layout, with an empty space between command and option. But I replace caps lock with control, and omit caps lock entirely.

Caps Lock -> Control
Control -> Alt/Option
Alt/Option -> Command

Given that control is the least used of the modifiers on a mac, having only one isn't really an issue. This also puts the command key next to the space bar where it belongs, and gives you a usable Alt/Option key on both sides, as well.

For reference, this is also my Windows/UNIX layout, with appropriate name changes, of course.

[iindigo]

Well my computing adventures started with a Performa 6400/200 running System 7.5.3 back in 1996, so I can't say I really appreciate the classic Control positioning. That's certainly an option though.

This is annoying. Somebody needs to give Matias some real solid competition. I'd do it but unfortunately I know nothing about constructing keyboards, designing circuitry, or running a company. I'm also a poor college student! haha...

Anyway, I guess I'll keep my eye open for a good deal on a US layout AEKII and iMate and perhaps try something else in the meantime. I'm still open to suggestions though so feel free to post any! Of course, if someone has a magical recipe to set up a keyboard company instantly that'd be cool too

[Daniel Beardsmore]

Interesting … EliteKeyboards in the US sells 103-key Realforce keyboards which have only the application (menu) key between right alt and right ctrl. Obviously you would need to bind both Windows and application to option here.

No idea why such a design was chosen, but there you go: you can have a PC keyboard with three keys right of space bar, just not the three that you wanted

The complete inability to get the layout of a keyboard right never ends … In other news, the Realforce is a decent keyboard. Domey, but soft and smooth. The subtle look of dark gold on grey works well, and makes my white-on-black FILCO look garish by comparison. Not as crisp or tactile as a Dell KB-1421, which is my favourite dome keyboard with its deep thock sound and clear, precise feel, but very decent nonetheless. Cherry MX brown sounds very clicky in comparison, even when it is not a clicky switch!