Ergonomic or Standard Keyboard... with some caveats.

[Phrish]

Hi, all. I've been lurking these forums for some time now, but think this might be my first post. Got a TON of really smart folks out there, so I wanted to reach out to this community for your thoughts or suggestions. I've come to an unfortunate nexus in my keyboard life, and would love to hear your thoughts.

I used to use a standard flat keyboard. Unfortunately, it got to the point that after a half hour to hour of typing, my forearms would go numb. About 10 years ago, I switched to an ergo split KB... nothing fancy or expensive, just the typical variety. I've been using that for the last decade both at work and home. No problems on the wrists or arms and I've gotten very proficient with it. Unfortunately my home KB is now going bad, though it had a heck of a run for 10 years (non-mechanical). Further unfortunately is the fact that the state of ergonomic choices out there are poor. Very, very poor. At the moment I'm considering adapting back to a standard flat KB with mechanical keys, and ditching ergos. I'm very hesitant though, considering my past issues... though it's been a LONG time since then.

Caveats:
- While money is not a huge issue, I'd need two KBs, one for both work and home. If I were to consider something as exotic as a Kinesis, I'd have to be very sure that it's the right choice for me.
- I game and type with my KB in almost equal measure (i.e. a LOT of both). Hence my interest in a mechanical, PS2 type KB with no ghosting issues. I've tried gaming controllers like the Logitech, which is OK, but I prefer just using my KB for all gaming.
- I need an enter key that's oversized, either the reverse L-shaped design or the fat-7 type. I can't use a flat bar style enter key... I've tried for months, and it won't work for me. Basically I tried an MS Ergo 4000, but it's neither a gamer's KB (ghosting), and I can't stand that enter key. I need a fat enter key like Steelseries.
- I'd like an integrated 10 key, but can probably tolerate an add-on 10 key panel.

So you can probably imagine that my choices for ergo replacement KBs that suit my needs are pretty non-existent. I mean it's rare enough to find an ergo with mechanical keys, but one that also has a fat reverse-L enter key as well? *sigh. Thus I'm considering going back to a flat standard model. My choices will improve immeasurably, but I'm worried about leaving ergos behind. I'm sure I can re-adapt and get my typing speed back up, just worried about discomfort over time again. It would also make my occasional foray into laptop KBs and bluetooth KBs for my tablet much easier, if I were re-adapted to flat KBs. I think I might be suffering a bit of analysis-paralysis.

Can you share your sage wisdom with me? Any of you suffer with tendinitis (at least in the past) and have to make similar choices or concessions? Would a Kinesis (*2 for home and work) be the right choice, with a Logitech game board at home as my gaming device? Do you think that I can re-adapt to a good, mechanical-style KB with large Enter key, without too much discomfort?

Thanks for any advice...

[shrap]

It's kinda hard for me to know how your body is going to adapt to changes...

The difference between a normal flat mechanical keyboard and a normal flat non-mechanical keyboard is pretty minor if you're jumping from split ergo. The cheap way to answer your "will I get discomfort over time?" question is to switch to a flat keyboard now and see what happens.

As a long time ergo user, I didn't find it hard to use flat boards for a short period of time, but I would notice the difference in my wrists and shoulders after a few hours. I use a laptop keyboard at home while my split board is at work and it's no problem, but I don't use the laptop board for 8+ hours at a time.

[Lanx]

have you used mech keyboards? specifically the ergo kind, cherry brown switches. if you're looking for a basic 105key or TKL(tenkeyless) cherry brown switch board because it is cheaper than a kinesis, it'll work... but you said a split option worked really well for you, so that leads me to think you have some tendon/forearm issues that a split keyboard will help with. for me while it's easy enough to go back to a normal keyboard (laptop) when i need it, i choose not too and after 2hours, it's the most i can take w/o wanting to cry.

currently now if you say you want ergo and mech, i'd just say kinesis, it is nicely made and stuff like that, one minus is that you'll have to "learn" how to type again since it is a matrix layout, but it's more "comfortable" in the end (staggered vs. matrix)
but then another issue to entry for the kinesis, is learning to use the thumbs for enter/backspace and such, that takes a bit (took me two days)
then of course the biggest entry issue for kinesis is the nearly 300 price point.

sadly i can only say ergonomics is subjective to the user, so really, only you can tell if it's working or not, all those silly ergo rules are impossible to apply to 3ft to 7ft height distance of regular people.

but having modded an ergonomic microsoft ergonomic 4k and using it for almost a year, i loved it and now this kinesis that i'm trying out to mod with, is pretty damn close (if not better in many ways too) so if you think you can stomach the purchase point, and "learn" how to use this kinesis, that's my vote.

All other mech + ergo really don't exist imo, maltron is just a bigger overpriced kinesis (with way more buttons) and other ergo only go Halfway into doing a good ergo. (i.e. split a keyboard but don't matrix it, or matrix a keyboard and don't split it, or slant it wrong or don't even slant it at all)

[TacticalCoder]

money is not a huge issue

I need an enter key that's oversized, either the reverse L-shaped

Well if you want split mechanical and the reverse L-shaped is OK for you and assuming staggered layout is what you're used to and if money isn't a huge issue, then a split Cherry MX Brown G80-5000 ISO (ISO so it has the L-shaped ENTER key) may be something you'd like (see link to NIB G80-5000 in my sig).  You'll have to shell out several hundred $$$ for one that said (got mine for 228 Euros thanks to GeekHack but that was a bargain).

But then as Lanx said: split != ergo.  If it's not symmetric / matrix, it's not ergo.  It may be "more ergo than non-split", but a split with staggered and non-curved layout is not ergo in the way a Kinesis is.

So if you're willing to part with some money, you may as well buy a Kinesis and see what gives (you'll be able to re-sell it in no-time anyway in case you don't like it).

[Phrish]

Hi, all. Thanks for the great responses... some really good ideas.

I think my "work" and my "home" basic split KBs are reaching the end of their useful lives, so I'm going to need to do something coming up. Sharp, your idea makes sense that to test whether or not I can even go back to a flat board, I can easily buy some cheapie plank that meets my needs (large enter key) for the time being, instead of plunking down money on something like a Steelseries that I don't know if it would be uncomfortable to use in the long run. If it's fine, then I know that I can probably go ahead and get a pricier flat board with good mechanical keys (though I suspect that the Cherry Blacks in the Steelseries would be uncomfortable to type with even if I do find I could adapt back to a flat board). I'll just use my gaming board to game... that's what it's designed for anyway.

And for Lanx and TC, I have been considering the Kinesis for a long time (though now I guess I'd need to decide between the Brown and Red versions). I suspect that when my current splits go kaput, my penultimate setup will end up being a Kinesis at work where I do most of my typing and no gaming, and a flat mechanical at home with the game pad. Since I type far less at home (gaming, photo and video editing, mostly, with some minor typing), this might get me through the relatively short term. Then at some point thereafter, I might get a 2nd Kinesis for home to replace the flat board... maybe a used or older one, or maybe a red switch at home if I get the brown for work or vice versa. I suspect that I won't really be able to comfortably and completely re-adapt to a flat board in the long run, but for a shorter term solution it might work ok until I've fully vetted a Kinesis. Ultimately the use of a game pad at home won't force a dual purpose into my keyboard, and I'll be more free to use something that works for me strictly for typing.

I did hear from Kinesis, and unfortunately they don't have reseller partners in my area (Colorado), so I can't try one out before buying. However, they do have a really decent return policy (less shipping costs). I am encouraged to think that this may ultimately be the best solution for me long-term, to just go for it and retrain myself for the Kinesis. I hear only good things about it here at geekhack, and while I wish there were more quality players in the ergo realm, if it ends up being the solution for me, then I'll be happy.

Thanks again for the great feedback!

[Lanx]

i'll tell you from personal experience that the kinesis is really good, a year ago i built this to find a means to a solution
http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:12439&do=comments
(i had a working version that i used for a year that was uglier and can't find the link)
but whatever it's a ms ergo 4k with cherry browns basically, i couldn't find any ergo solution that i could accept and went that route. Having used my board for nearly a year, and now trying out a kinesis (because i also want to mod it) the kinesis has replaced that board i so praised, of course the kinesis, imo isn't the end all/be all, i personally still have to mod it, and it did take 2 days of dedication to get force my muscle memory to get used to the matrix vs. stagger and the thumbs for enter/delete/space (which i currently find more superior).

look i'm no kinesis fan boy, but imo if anyone even remotely says "ergonomic" mechanical, it's gonna be kinesis 95% of the time the best answer.