Why tenkeyless?

[weenis]

I'm a systems analyst. Pretty much my job involves everything server and network related. I'm leery about TKL because I type IPs all day long... One day I shall see whether I like it or not.

[alaricljs]

Interestingly I type IPs on the number row faster than on the numpad.  ISBNs, dollar amounts and phone numbers however I do much faster on the numpad.  Suppose that's what happens when you order books for a college 2 years straight.

[sordna]

Hmm, my Kinesis Advantage has an embedded numpad (like the RealForce 87U or IBM mini does) but I never use it (except for Mouse Keys) because the straight-columns make it totally foolproof to touch type the number row, your fingers can jump from any row to the desired key in the number row with total confidence and no need to look down.

[Lanx]

Why? We, the programmers were biased. If we did not force ourselves to pretend we were dumb users, we would have tested the software by doing things "right."

I think this is why some ppl can't use Mac's, it's pretty impossible to force yourself to think dumb in order to use a mac.

[Gerk]

I think this is why some ppl can't use Mac's, it's pretty impossible to force yourself to think dumb in order to use a mac.

Who says you have to force yourself to think dumb to use a Mac?  Mac is by far the best *nix based setup around IMNSHO.  Native BSD layer, included gnu based toolchains (even with cross compiler support built-in), tons and tons of GNU software works out of the box (and those that don't are typically relatively easy to port), they can easily run windows and other *nix based setups under emulation (even under free ones like virtualbox) with very little speed loss, no viruses/trojans/malware, the core of the OS is open source (Darwin) and the list goes on and on.  Not to mention that the hardware is generally well designed, well put together and lasts for ages.  For those that think that you have to "think dumb" in order to use a Mac you haven't fully explored the possibilities or have some other biases that are interfering with your thought processes.

I've spent years as a linux dev (I started with slackware 1.x), was even lead dev on some pretty big projects and a couple of linux distro ports and I use Macs almost exclusively these days (except for web servers).  I'm also a programmer as far as my "day job" goes, oh ... and I don't typically use a keypad and prefer tenkeyless boards

[sordna]

To me, OS X is Apple's greatest achievement. I mean going from OS9 to a FreeBSD based OS X, with GNU utilities included, what a bold and awesome thing to do. I'm a Linux person and can't imagine downgrading (ha ha) to anything else as my main box, but ... WOW. Lot's of Unix beards got into Macs when OS X came out.

[Gerk]

To me, OS X is Apple's greatest achievement. I mean going from OS9 to a FreeBSD based OS X, with GNU utilities included, what a bold and awesome thing to do. I'm a Linux person and can't imagine downgrading (ha ha) to anything else as my main box, but ... WOW. Lot's of Unix beards got into Macs when OS X came out.

LOL  To me it's not a downgrade, it's kind of a side-grade.  I couldn't imagine having to use windows again.  You couldn't pay me enough ... or rather, you would wan't to pay me enough as it would be a big figure  I was a hard-core Linux user (and I mean hard core) for a long time and only came into using OSX full-time at around 10.3.

[spill]

I couldn't imagine having to use windows again.

I can't remember the last time I vehemently objected to using one operating system over another.  I'm also one of those who's used the "major" *nix and windows releases/platforms over the past 20 years in a professional (development) and personal capacity.  At the end of the day, you use the tool that fits the job.

Back on topic, I've switched to tenkeyless at work as well as home.  0 mileage on a tenkey pad to speak of, and gets the mouse closer to the "center" of activity on my desk.

[alaricljs]

Right now my biggest complaint is I can't get all my favorite features on 1 OS.  I like the new Windows 7 taskbar features (pinning and the window reveal on hover) but I would really like to have FVWM-like sloppy mouse focus.  The basic gist is that there's no active window auto-raise and that whatever window is under the mouse gets focus (unless it's the desktop, then focus doesn't change from the last window.)

*sigh*

[sordna]

Right now my biggest complaint is I can't get all my favorite features on 1 OS.  I like the new Windows 7 taskbar features (pinning and the window reveal on hover) but I would really like to have FVWM-like sloppy mouse focus.
  The basic gist is that there's no active window auto-raise and that whatever window is under the mouse gets focus (unless it's the desktop, then focus doesn't change from the last window.)

*sigh*

I have the exact same requirements, which is why I never used GNOME. For the last few years I am very happy with Xubuntu + Compiz, gives me all of the above features you mentioned (window reveal hover, sloppy focus, avoidance of raise even if you click inside a partially hidden window). And I've configured compiz to raise/lower a window when I hit push one of my mouses side buttons (the other side button rotates my desktop cube). It's awesome.

[patrickgeekhack]

At the end of the day, you use the tool that fits the job.

Well said. The perfect OS does not exist...unfortunately.

[gray_geek]

It's like using shift/ctrl-Ins for copy/paste while using the mouse to hi-light/navigate.  Lots of hand movement for no reason.  Using Ctrl-C/V/X is way easier if you're mousing to navigate.

And it is even easier when  you use left mouse button to highlight the text and  then middle mouse button to paste the text. No other way is faster and simpler. [NOTE: it works on LINUX/UNIX box]

[kolonelkadat]

@ programmers, do you use tenkeyless?

LOL no. god no. Several of the IDEs I use daily use numpad keys for pretty important stuff. Im sure I could have it set as function layer just as easily, but I prefer 1 keystroke to two. Thats one of the main reasons i got a board with a ridiculous macropad on the left side. plus 3 different macro profiles. ive got a profile for IDA and one for visual studio and one for eclipse.

you can harp on and on about efficiency of motion but I find that having more buttons is almost always better than having less and needing to press multiple keys at at a time.

[rowdy]

Whoa - necrobump!

Anyway yes, I use TKL for programming (at work).  I use 60% (HHKB) for programming at home.

[osi]

Looks sexier plus I needed the real estate. Stupid small keyboard tray.. :x

[Hellmark]

Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.

But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!

Various projects require lots of datacrunching. Plus if you're doing something for networking you'll be entering in IPs. I use the snot out of my numpad.

[rowdy]

Why would a programmer need to enter a lot of numbers? Sure, there's the occasional number, but the number row is plenty good enough for that. Being able to have the main qwerty part of the keyboard more central in front of you is a big benefit, all the time.

But no, I don't use TKL, having to move between the cursors and the pgup/pgdn/etc block sucks.
84-key AT layout, or Raptor K1 (Cherry 1800)... with numlock OFF!

Various projects require lots of datacrunching. Plus if you're doing something for networking you'll be entering in IPs. I use the snot out of my numpad.

You have snot in your numpad?

[lonedruid]

Like iindigo said above, I use adobe aftereffects and photoshop and 3d. So I am quite used to typing in numbers. Do numpad
Is good for me

[davkol]

I wonder what's the point of touch typing on a numpad, when I can touch type on the number row. No hand movement between rows, and I can alternate hands, thus it has to be faster, at least in theory.

[divito]

To be honest, I don't know how skinny some of you guys are, but with my frame, my mouse is no closer to my keyboard now that I'm using a TKL board vs. my Das. My arms are still parallel.

As for why people would use TKL, I suppose it looks cleaner, and could be ergonomic for some people, but that's not the case for me. I was also worried what I would do without a Num Pad since I use it for most number entry, but it's been alright so far.

[smknjoe]

The biggest reason for me to like the tenkeyless design more than the full size is that it allows me to have my hands closer to one another since the mouse can go further left. The space i save is also nice and as result its easier to rotate the keyboard (I like to move my chair, and when I do, I rotate the keyboard so that its in front of me)

Not to mention that I dont need the numpad ^^ The number row feels more comfortable for me because when I need to type a number I am typing a lot of letters anyways, so going to the numpad, just for a number isnt too nice (programming job)

This. Plus, I grew up using computers that didn't have a numpad. So, I have never used one. I always think of accountants  and secretaries needing the numpad. I had a Commodore Vic 20 at home and we used Apple II, IIe at school up until the end of Elementary School. I had never seen a numpad on a keyboard until I got my Tandy 1000TL when I was about 12.

[smknjoe]

I wonder what's the point of touch typing on a numpad, when I can touch type on the number row. No hand movement between rows, and I can alternate hands, thus it has to be faster, at least in theory.

And this too. I am much faster on the number row. When you learn to type you are taught to use the number row anyway.

[Hellmark]

I guess it depends on who taught you. Old school, from typewriters, the numrow. On computers from the get go, then it is numpad.

[smknjoe]

Learned on the PC. Never used a typewriter.

PCs didn't originally have a numpad (Apple, Commodore)

[SamirD]

I do a lot of accounting work, and the numberpad is a godsend for this type of data entry, especially with the enter key right there.  I hate running into non-numberpad keyboards.  Makes me wish I carried my M with me that day...

[Tony]

I can touch type on the numpad. So 104 is ok. TKL is good if you want it compact and light

[rowdy]

I do a lot of accounting work, and the numberpad is a godsend for this type of data entry, especially with the enter key right there.  I hate running into non-numberpad keyboards.  Makes me wish I carried my M with me that day...

If you need the keypad, then TKL is not for you.

But you could always obtain a cheap USB stand-alone numeric keypad and carry that around with you

[davkol]

Actually, what is tenkeyless? 87key layout? Or anything without a numpad? Is ErgoDox or TypeMatrix 2030 tenkeyless then? Because TM2030 has an embedded numpad with the same grid layout as the "standard" keyboard.

[rowdy]

Actually, what is tenkeyless? 87key layout? Or anything without a numpad? Is ErgoDox or TypeMatrix 2030 tenkeyless then? Because TM2030 has an embedded numpad with the same grid layout as the "standard" keyboard.

TKL is usually an 80% board (87 keys, technically about 83%) i.e. a conventional alpha-numeric section, separate function keys, separate arrow and 6key clusters.

Ergo Dox is a separate category of ergonomic keyboard.

TM2030 is something else again.

[SamirD]

I do a lot of accounting work, and the numberpad is a godsend for this type of data entry, especially with the enter key right there.  I hate running into non-numberpad keyboards.  Makes me wish I carried my M with me that day...

If you need the keypad, then TKL is not for you.

But you could always obtain a cheap USB stand-alone numeric keypad and carry that around with you

I do like the idea of the better centering of a TKL since I do get my right shoulder burning after about 10hrs or so in front of the keys.  Although I know those 10hrs would be 16 without the numeric keypad.

I've actually thought about getting a numeric keypad--if IBM made a buckling-spring version of one.  I thought they did at one point back in the 1990s, but can't remember anymore.

[davkol]

Actually, what is tenkeyless? 87key layout? Or anything without a numpad? Is ErgoDox or TypeMatrix 2030 tenkeyless then? Because TM2030 has an embedded numpad with the same grid layout as the "standard" keyboard.

TKL is usually an 80% board (87 keys, technically about 83%) i.e. a conventional alpha-numeric section, separate function keys, separate arrow and 6key clusters.

Ergo Dox is a separate category of ergonomic keyboard.

TM2030 is something else again.

It was a rhetorical question. ~_^

The problem with this thread is that it assumes the 104key layout (aka fullsize) is "normal" and then there's the 87key layout (aka tenkeyless) that is exactly the same, but doesn't have a dedicated numpad on the right. However, many of us use other layouts—either with even fewer keys, or similar to 96key layout, or completely different (ErgoDox master race!).

If tenkeyless means 87key layout, then my answer to OP would be that IMHO there's no point in using that, because there are more compact keyboards with the same amount of useful keys (at least in theory).

If tenkeyless means without numpad, then I have to ask, whether compact ergonomic/point-of-sale keyboards with embedded numpad are tenkeyless, or not.

Either way, grid/columnar layout FTW!

...and naming conventions are a mess.

Maybe the question was just meant as "do you use numpad?"...

[wuqe]

I love the embedded number pad in matrix boards, like TypeMatrix and Ergodox: it just seems to work great! I don't use it constantly, but for certain tasks, like accounting and keying in serial numbers, it is divine.

Incidentally, I once had a "data processing" job that was keying in numbers from paper into a database for eight hours a day. So I guess I used my number pad professionally.

Also, it still frustrates me when touch numpads are arranged like phones, with 1 on top.

[ValerieV]

Ergonomic reason are part of the reason why i like tenkeyless and even smaller keyboards but the real reason i prefer small keyboards is because i travel a lot and it is easy to pick up and go with. I can't do that with a regular keyboard. Also, regular size keyboards are harder to store.