ergonomics of mechanical keyboards

[lock]

sorry, i tried searching but can't find what i'm looking for.

i'm deciding between an ergonomic keyboard and a mechanical keyboard. my question is - do mechanical keyboards help with people who suffer slight pain in their wrists while typing?

i don't quite have RSI yet but if i type all day long my wrists do hurt a little. currently i'm using an apple keyboard, the mushy kind and i can't help but press the keys all the way down when i type. if i get a mechanical keyboard i figure i could type much lighter and hopefully completely get rid of the wrist pain. is this a likely scenario? or should i just go with an ergonomic keyboard like the microsoft ergonomic 4000?

grateful for any advice you experts can give

[nar]

I'm not sure if typing lighter would help get rid of the wrist pain, but you can learn to not bottom out with mechnical keyboards.

On the otherhand I know there are mechanical ergonomic keyboards, like the Kinesis Advantage. The best of both worlds, just really really expensive.

[sordna]

If you have pain, you should address it as soon as possible to avoid further damage to your nerves/tendons/etc. Typing lightly / avoiding to bottom out does help (you won't be able to do that with the Microsoft 4000 I'm afraid).

Something essential that you should do right away: make sure your wrists are straight all around (not angled upwards, and not angled outwards).
A keyboard like the Kinesis Advantage helps tremendously with keeping the hands/wrists in the proper position, plus it's mechanical (comes with Cherry MX brown switches in the regular models, or with Cherry MX red soft/linear switches in the special Advantage LF model).

[Tony]

Rest between long typing lessons could help.

I think even with the help of Kinesis, my wrists would hurt if I type all day long.

We type to earn money to pay for the cure of RSI which arises because of typing...

[Lanx]

short answer, there is no ergonomic mech keyboard that compares to the kinesis, everything else is trash (in terms of ergonomics, they skimp out on a lot), second answer if you've never typed on mech board b4, don't because the crispness from it is nice compared to basic rubber domes.
but the only best merger between mech and ergonomics will be the kinesis, every other option does it half @$$. yes kinesis costs $$$ and deter's a lot of ppl, really no way around it.

[davkol]

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[hoggy]

It's a start.  I have (far too) many keyboards and swap to another most days.  

I recommend the kinesis,too.  Change can help.

Do you really need to type?  Take a look at text expansion software (I use texter - it's not the best, but it's free and does the job).  There's some really macro software out there - go have a look.  

I've changed the way I work over the past few years to really wring as much benefit out of my typing each day - average is under 10000  presses a day - if that was raw text output I would have been sacked long ago.

Don't forget to think about your mouse...

[Findecanor]

Besides choosing another keyboard, you should look at your typing posture. (check the Ergonomics wiki if you have not already.)
Common problems are that the keyboard is on a desk that is too high, (made for pen and paper), and that the screen is too low (with a stand that is too short or lacking altogether).

A keyboard tray might be a good investment, especially if you use a wrist rest... and wrist rests are built into MS NK4000 and the Kinesis Advantage.

[lock]

Thanks everyone so far for the replies.

Yes, I am definitely fixing my posture which is why I need a keyboard. I am getting a laptop stand so my screen will be closer to eye level. And my desk IS too high. So once I get the laptop stand I'll either get a keyboard tray or a higher chair to sit in.

I also use my left hand for mousing. In the past, that virtually made all the pain go away. But these days it's been my neck that's been sore with my wrists feeling sore every once in awhile.

I've heard great things about the Kinesis but I've also seen a few complaints from programmers. I'm a programmer myself

At any rate, I live in China right now and found out the PLU keyboards here are pretty cheap ($70 with free delivery) so I'm trying that one out. If that doesn't help then I will get an ergonomic keyboard too.

[Lanx]

like what kinesis complaints? aside from the oldest kinesis, i think they're all programmable so you can rearrange pretty much most buttons (i had an issue but i hardwired). If the complaints are that you have to "learn" a new way to type, yea it's true took me only 3 days... 3 days of locking away my own modded keyboard away (so i don't default to it when i had issues) and just sat down and learned the kinesis and struggled for 3 days, after that, it's pretty damn awesome. Is it the best? depends on the person, everything is gonna have issues, but imo it's the best ergonomic keyboard out there.

[shrap]

I've found that wrist pain is more associated with posture / wrist position than any kind of switch, so I would look into that before getting a mechanical keyboard.

[pitashen]

Thanks everyone so far for the replies.

Yes, I am definitely fixing my posture which is why I need a keyboard. I am getting a laptop stand so my screen will be closer to eye level. And my desk IS too high. So once I get the laptop stand I'll either get a keyboard tray or a higher chair to sit in.

I also use my left hand for mousing. In the past, that virtually made all the pain go away. But these days it's been my neck that's been sore with my wrists feeling sore every once in awhile.

I've heard great things about the Kinesis but I've also seen a few complaints from programmers. I'm a programmer myself

At any rate, I live in China right now and found out the PLU keyboards here are pretty cheap ($70 with free delivery) so I'm trying that one out. If that doesn't help then I will get an ergonomic keyboard too.

keyboard stand should def. help your sore neck. Wrist will be a bit more individual dependent... but posture alone should help a great deal..

do you use modifier key a lot? especially the ctrl key. If you do, and you have not done it already, remapping your capslock to ctrl will reduce quite a bit of your wrist movement.

[F u r u y á]

keyboard stand should def. help your sore neck. Wrist will be a bit more individual dependent... but posture alone should help a great deal..

do you use modifier key a lot? especially the ctrl key. If you do, and you have not done it already, remapping your capslock to ctrl will reduce quite a bit of your wrist movement.

Regarding the use of modifiers (and many other keys), one thing that helps a lot relieving the stress is to use the keyboard somewhat like a piano: fingers very relaxed and wrist not supported. Instead of rotating the wrist, just move the arms slightly.

[pitashen]

Regarding the use of modifiers (and many other keys), one thing that helps a lot relieving the stress is to use the keyboard somewhat like a piano: fingers very relaxed and wrist not supported. Instead of rotating the wrist, just move the arms slightly.

Ya, once you have the proper height of your keyboard, you would likely (theoretically) end up having your wrist floating slightly, which is what i do when i need to reach further to keys such  T and Y. However though that doesn't prevent you from getting hurt. I do eventually end up having  shoulder discomfort from repeatably moving my arms "slightly" or the so called repetitive strain injury. I am supposing this is when keyboard like kensis advantage comes into play.

Taking frequent breaks is still the key.

[F u r u y á]

Fortunately I've never had any discomfort or strain issues and nevertheless one time I tried to do the "recommended" posture. I forcibly kept myself postured according to all recommendations (sholders, elbows, knees, everything) and I did end up getting that shoulder discomfort (because of that floating technique), pretty prominently if you ask me, right in the tendon... after that experience I will never try the recommendations again... my advise for the Thread Starter is to do what works and what feels comfortable to you. Of course you need to take breaks since we're not robots, but if you are feeling discomforts and your body is rested, then try to identify if you're not strained in some regions of the body. You should be as relaxed and comfortable as possible (including your fingers and wrist!)

[patrickgeekhack]

From someone who suffers from RSI:

- Rest and stretch frequently.
- Do you have pain in both wrists or just from your mousing hand? In my case, the cause of my pain is probably my mouse. If this is the case, you might consider the Evoluent mouse instead.
- Try the Microsoft 4000 in store first before buying. It's a fairly big keyboard which can be uncomfortable for some. It caused more fatigue for me. Moreover, I found it required more force.

[shrap]

The force needed for the space bar on the Microsoft Natural 4K is quite dreadful.

[Gerk]

The keys jam way too much on the ergo 4k's for my liking. I do like the physical layout though. Once you get used to it I find it very comfortable. If they made them with good switches I would be very very happy.

[sordna]

Yes, I too have found the keys on the MS 4k to bind if you don't push them in the center and straight down. The Goldtouch keyboard has much better rubber dome keys than any MS keyboard I've tried. My Goldtouch rip-o-meters at 40g (lighter than cherry MX reds!) including the space bar:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Keyboard+Peak+and+Activation+Forces#Key+Ovation+Goldtouch

[digitalleftovers]

The key binding issue was exactly what drove me to buy a filco.  My logitech wavepro was horendous.  It might have been related to extensive use, as I tried a new one a few months ago and found to be quite smooth, but only if you pressed straight down.  Any lateral movement and the sliders start rubbing and sticking.  I don't think it was rigid enough for the design because this was particularly problematic when I set it in my lap or on a cushion.

[Gerk]

Yes, I too have found the keys on the MS 4k to bind if you don't push them in the center and straight down. The Goldtouch keyboard has much better rubber dome keys than any MS keyboard I've tried. My Goldtouch rip-o-meters at 40g (lighter than cherry MX reds!) including the space bar:

http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Keyboard+Peak+and+Activation+Forces#Key+Ovation+Goldtouch

They key binding gets worse with age on the 4k's as well :/  I was swapping them out every 6 months (or less) due to this issue and giving the used ones to friends.  I especially had issues with all the right pinky keys that coders use all day every day, like [ ] { } \ | ; : ' " , . / ? ... that was the worst.

I considered a Goldtouch but never found any decent deals on them while I had interest.  I'm back to flat boards now and it's not too bad, the tenkeyless ones seem to agree with me so we'll see how that goes.  At some point I may end up with a gold touch or one of the Kinesis split boards ... or maybe someone will actually make a good split board with decent switches.  Hoping that the TE eventually ships and that I like it ... I will probably miss the angle but the split on it seems to be something that I would like.

[davkol]

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[Gerk]

4k's are very hit and miss feel wise from one to another. I have about 4-5 at home right now. Maybe I should test, for science.  Not for a few days though.