Why does the "Num Lock" system exist on a full-sized keyboard?

[fohat.digs]

I have old keyboards with numpads doubling duty with the arrow keys, home cluster, etc.

I know that a lot of people like the smaller footprint keyboards, I don't.

So on a newer, larger keyboard with dedicated arrow keys, and dedicated home cluster, why have the whole "Num Lock" system at all?

I use the number pad quite a bit, and if I hit the NumLock by accident, without looking, it can mess me up.

Nature carries residual appendages forward, but why do we?

Do ANY of you EVER use the number pad for home and arrows?

[bloodygood]

As someone who has never had any reason to touch the numpad on any keyboard ever I have to wonder why they are even included at all. Perhaps some people use the numpad as originally placed because it was used before and in order to not break "backwards compatibility" they leave the option?

[alaricljs]

Data entry was extremely common during the formation of the modern computer.  Numbers were a huge part of that.  As such a 'generic' keyboard for businesses would need to support both administrative uses (documentation, communications...)  and data entry.  I now solely use tenkeyless but don't foresee a point at which I won't be faster at numeric entry on a numeric keypad.

As with much of the software industry, since the original focus was to satisfy business needs that tends to color Marketing and Product Development.

[Sam]

I use the cursor keys on the numpad all the time.  99.999% of the time it's in the cursor key mode and I hate it when I accidentally hit the numlock key and it comes out of it, or when someone else uses my keyboard and purposely toggles it.  If I use a keyboard with the separate cursor keys, I still always use the ones in the numpad.  I began with computers back before PC even existed, and when IBM came out with the PC then XT, and later AT, I had each of those models and the use of the cursor keys in the numpad became second nature.  I find it extremely clumsy to use the new-fangled dedicated cursor cluster introduced on the Model M.  Which is why the IBM PC AT keyboard is my all-time favorite.

Many people actually don't use the cursor keys all that much.  If they're just composing text, they typically type from beginning to end and probably only use the backspace key.  If they need to jump around, chances are probably good they'll use a mouse.  A lot of my time spent on the keyboard is for coding though, and moving the cursor around is an integral part of that (up line, down line, beginning of line, end of line, etc.).  Cursor keys end up being a significant percent of my total keystrokes.  The numpad cursor keys are laid out perfectly for this purpose. With left/right/up/down in a +, not and inverted T configuration, and Home, End, Page Up, Page Down being very logically positioned in the cluster.  And it's just a 3x3 matrix which is super easy to use.  Way better then the standard cursor cluster which is in the area of a 3x5 matrix, requiring much more finger movement (more time required to hit the keys), and more chance of error.

[alaricljs]

Interestingly, I too grew with computers starting with an Altair 80 of some sort and on through the XT/AT era and beyond.  I strongly prefer the inverted-T cluster.  I also don't find that my cursor control usage is hindered by the separation of short movement and large movement keys.  On the other hand I have assigned home/end/pgup/pgdwn as modifier options on the inverted-T since it seemed like a good idea.  I have yet to convince my hands to use that option tho.

[Sam]

Interestingly, I too grew with computers starting with an Altair 80 of some sort and on through the XT/AT era and beyond.  I strongly prefer the inverted-T cluster.  I also don't find that my cursor control usage is hindered by the separation of short movement and large movement keys.  On the other hand I have assigned home/end/pgup/pgdwn as modifier options on the inverted-T since it seemed like a good idea.  I have yet to convince my hands to use that option tho.

But what is your primary use of the keyboard?  If just entering text, I too would probably prefer the dedicated cursor cluster.  Likewise if using a spreadsheet or entering numbers all the time.  With the primary use being for coding though, I need to use the cursor keys almost constantly, and very frequently combined with the Shift/Control modifiers.  I definitely don't want to have to use yet another modifier just to access them, as that would slow me down even more.  Direct easy access to the cursor keys is the name-of-the-game for coders, or at least for coders who code the way I do.

[alaricljs]

Systems admin with an emphasis on process automation, so umm... yes?

command line (plenty of cursor management with command recall and editing)
scripting (although I tend to use the vim cursor assignment there)
spreadsheets (yes, I too am forced to tabulate crap)

I don't mind chording one bit, been pondering a smaller spacebar and a couple extra modifiers on the custom I've been working on.

[Sam]

I've tried several times to get used to the dedicated cursor keys, and everytime gave up and reverted back to the numpad.  One of these days, when I get the time, I'll make my own custom keyboard, and move many things around to where I think it's the optimal keyboard for me, and then I'll spend the time / force myself to get used to it.  Until then, I guess I'm a creature of habit.

[Human]

As a Laptop user, I gave up on the dedicated arrow keys and tried the num off arrow keys. Since then, I never move back, even for a full size keyboard.(PS: I use 17'' laptop with numpad).

The arrow keys in laptop is badly placed, small and unergonomic. The one at numpad fit me just well(though, the down key need a little time to get used to). They are having same level as the famous WASD keys.

[shrap]

I always use the numpad for arrows / navigation, since on my keyboard the traditional navigation cluster is placed awkwardly.

Since the navigation cluster seems to be the first place where "compact" layouts get changed, it's actually easier to always navigate with the numpad than to learn how a particular keyboard decided to "optimize" the arrow keys.

[bbbbqq]

It's there so you can turn it on again when you hit it by accident

[Soarer]

It's there so you can turn it off again when you hit it by accident!

[fohat.digs]

Thanks for your insights.

I am glad that there are 2 sizes of boards, so that people who don't like/need/want the numpad can do without it.

The smaller footprint would be very valuable on desk space. If I didn't use it regularly, I would certainly buy a small board, I would hate to have to move my hand a full extra hand-width to the right to get where I wanted to go. And, if I still moused with my right hand, it would be even worse.

Still, I would love to be able to enable Num Lock on boot, and disable the key (better, reassign it on my modded Model F-122, which even Soarer cannot seem to do!) so that the whole issue would go away. As an aside, this board has a full "+" arrangement of arrow keys rather than the inverted-T, which I like (I set the center to Down Arrow to preserve some consistency).

I use all these, numpad, arrows, home cluster, Page Up/Down, etc, so I don't want to ever have to toggle anything.

Thanks again for your opinions !

[fireball87]

Apple agrees with you apparently, they've neither had numlock keys or supported non numeric functions to those keys for years... even on standard keyboards.  Which is fine by me, it keeps a bright blue led turned off.  Not the nicest choice for people who like using the pad for nav though.