Author Topic: Truly Ergonomic Unboxing  (Read 51691 times)

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Offline cbf123

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Truly Ergonomic Unboxing
« on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 11:39:17 »
Well, I guess I'm the first to get mine....advantage of being in Canada and working from home, I guess.  Here's the unboxing.   Build quality feels solid, lots of rubber on the bottom to keep it from sliding around.  Layout will take a bit of time to get used to, especially for the left hand.

I haven't spent much time actually using it--plugged it into my linux machine and it basically worked as expected.

The only thing I'm not totally sold on is the angle of the enter key.  I suspect they're intending it to be pushed with either index finger, but I think it would be better to have it sloped like the spacebars.  Only time will tell, and maybe they'll offer that as an option if it catches on.

Edit:  

1) I've uploaded a picture with a hand on the home row as requested.  For reference, I normally wear XL gloves.  Also added a picture with the capslock/numlock turned on.  It's hard to do it justice in a photo but it's a nicely subdued blue glow that shines through the black keycaps.  I like it.

2) I should point out that I ordered the 109-key version for flexibility but asked them to swap the 105th-key equivalent (above the tab) for a "Del" key like on the 104-key version.  

3) As Gerk points out below, the enter/backspace are swapped from what they show on the website.  If using the index fingers I suspect the version on the website (with backspace between the spacebars) would be better.  I have a feeling I may end up swapping the shift and ctrl keys on both sides and then making the right "ctrl" key a duplicate "enter" key.  As far as I can tell the shift/ctrl keys are the same angle which should make this a trivial change.

4) For xsar, one of the dip switches maps the left spacebar to "alternate".  This should allow arbitrary remapping of left/right spacebars.

5) No user manual or drivers was shipped with the keyboard, which is unfortunate. I assume they'll be putting it up on their website.

It's definitely going to take some getting used to the layout of the keys that have been moved, but I think the curved horizontal rows will turn out to be a really good idea.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 December 2011, 18:10:28 by cbf123 »
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Offline Tracer

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« Reply #1 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 12:54:36 »
Finally. Now I do regret canceling my pre-order. That was 9 months ago though!!!

I would get the 109, like you did, without keys printed so I could re-asign the ctrl, alt, shift keys and then assign enter to where it belongs.

[edited for typos]
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 December 2011, 13:08:11 by Tracer »

Offline hoggy

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« Reply #2 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 13:42:07 »
Congrats!  I want one
GH Ergonomic Guide (in progress)
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=54680.0

Offline shrap

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« Reply #3 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 14:15:35 »
Dang, I guess we can't make fun of TE for not producing anymore.

Is it a keeper?

fossala

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« Reply #4 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 14:21:56 »
Quote from: shrap;469031
Dang, I guess we can't make fun of TE for not producing anymore.

Is it a keeper?

No, but we can remember the way they treated all their customers by systematically lying to them. I don't care how good the end product is, I won't deal with a company that treats is customers like that.

Offline xsar

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« Reply #5 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 14:30:07 »
I don't think I will be using the enter key where it is placed by default. I have a typematrix 2030 with a similar placement of the enter key and don't use it because it requires too much movement of the hand. Instead, I remap to my right thumb (probably the right spacebar, don't know yet if it is remappable separately).

can't wait to get mine

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #6 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 14:57:41 »
Cool that it arrived already. Still waiting for mine and I'm in Canada too.
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Offline Gerk

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« Reply #7 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 15:11:15 »
I just noticed that the enter and backspace key on your are opposite to what they have pictured on their site currently.  I'm thinking that if possible I'll probably remap the left space bar for something (backspace or enter, not sure which).  I also ordered the 109 model with cherry red switches (they let me change right near the end and glad they did have ones with reds available for me to switch to).

EDIT:  Also just noticed that above the tab is a second delete key ... but on their site it is pictured that it's supposed to be the second "/' key.n  Also worth noting on their site images is the page up and page down are reversed from what you received (which is ok as I thought them being upside down was strange).
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 December 2011, 15:13:21 by Gerk »
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Offline slueth

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« Reply #8 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 15:24:26 »
Do want.. too bad I was too scared to preorder.. Wonder how much they will cost?

Offline shrap

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« Reply #9 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 16:09:45 »
Quote from: fossala;469038
No, but we can remember the way they treated all their customers by systematically lying to them. I don't care how good the end product is, I won't deal with a company that treats is customers like that.

I think of it more like incompetence than malice. They're not the first company to over-promise and under-deliver.

fossala

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« Reply #10 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 16:23:39 »
Quote from: shrap;469118
I think of it more like incompetence than malice. They're not the first company to over-promise and under-deliver.

I think you are correct there, just if I spend $200+ on a keyboard I would need to know that it is from a company I can trust. They deleted comments on facebook to hide there incompetence and never bothered replying to any of mine or other members emails. They also have/had fake reviews on their website.

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #11 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 16:24:06 »
WOW! Really was thinking this day wouldn't come.

Can you show a pic with one hand, fingers on home row to show how the thumb will reach keys?
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #12 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 16:26:22 »
Quote from: fossala;469132
I think you are correct there, just if I spend $200+ on a keyboard I would need to know that it is from a company I can trust. They deleted comments on facebook to hide there incompetence and never bothered replying to any of mine or other members emails. They also have/had fake reviews on their website.

No doubt. Inexcusable. Seedy and unprofessional. My guess is that if they deliver everyone by the end of the month, that by February all will be forgiven. Especially if the reviews are positive. But only if any customer service issues crop up and are handled well.

It looks like backspace and enter are to be thumb keys?
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 December 2011, 16:31:21 by input nirvana »
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #13 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 16:44:42 »
Congrats! Does it come with any software for programming it? How about a user manual, pdf or printed?
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Offline shrap

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« Reply #14 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 17:02:35 »
Quote from: fossala;469132
I think you are correct there, just if I spend $200+ on a keyboard I would need to know that it is from a company I can trust. They deleted comments on facebook to hide there incompetence and never bothered replying to any of mine or other members emails. They also have/had fake reviews on their website.

I may just be cynical, but I have come to expect the Facebook censorship and shoddy communications from most companies, especially startups who obviously don't know what they're doing.

I'll evaluate the product separately from the company behind it, in terms of customer service. I'm typing on a keyboard from a company that no longer exists, and others on this forum have keyboards which only have a limited customer presence in a country far away - we don't expect any customer service.

Even if the company had exemplary customer service, it would be meaningless if they went out of business tomorrow. Given the ergonomic keyboard market and their chances of success, I might as well assume that is the case.

I will count on others I trust (not marketing shills) to provide me with information on whether the keyboard has any longevity or firmware issues. Other than that, I'm buying a keyboard, not a service contract or business relationship. Whether the keyboard is worth $200 is your own decision.

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #15 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 18:25:37 »
Aha that explains the swapped extra del key. So the big question ... Are they doubleshots?
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Offline Con a la Bon

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« Reply #16 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 18:47:01 »
Did you get a chance to test NKRO?

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #17 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:08:18 »
Quote from: Gerk;469209
Aha that explains the swapped extra del key. So the big question ... Are they doubleshots?

Not doubleshots.
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Offline Gerk

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« Reply #18 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:12:41 »
Quote from: input nirvana;469250
Not doubleshots.


Didn't really expect them to be but one can dream, no?  From the side shot maybe pad printed would be my guess.  Gonna be hard to get a full replacement keycap set for these so hoping they last.

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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #19 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:15:32 »
Quote from: cbf123;468913
The only thing I'm not totally sold on is the angle of the enter key.  I suspect they're intending it to be pushed with either index finger, but I think it would be better to have it sloped like the spacebars.  Only time will tell, and maybe they'll offer that as an option if it catches on.

Edit:  

1) I've uploaded a picture with a hand on the home row as requested.  For reference, I normally wear XL gloves.  Also added a picture with the capslock/numlock turned on.  It's hard to do it justice in a photo but it's a nicely subdued blue glow that shines through the black keycaps.  I like it.

2) I should point out that I ordered the 109-key version for flexibility but asked them to swap the 105th-key equivalent (above the tab) for a "Del" key like on the 104-key version.  

3) As Gerk points out below, the enter/backspace are swapped from what they show on the website.  If using the index fingers I suspect the version on the website (with backspace between the spacebars) would be better.  I have a feeling I may end up swapping the shift and ctrl keys on both sides and then making the right "ctrl" key a duplicate "enter" key.  As far as I can tell the shift/ctrl keys are the same angle which should make this a trivial change.

It's definitely going to take some getting used to the layout of the keys that have been moved, but I think the curved horizontal rows will turn out to be a really good idea.


-You are saying (on your keyboard) that the slope of the bottom ENTER key is sloped differently/opposite of the spacebars on either side? Is that a thumb key? It looks like it should be activated by thumb.

-Your BACKSPACE key, how is it sloped? Is it meant to be hit with the index fingers? It seems to be in a thumb position, since you will need to move your fingers off home row to hit backspace, which would suck. I would think it is a thumb key also, but the height and slope of key cap determines that?

-Lites shining through black keycaps looks nice...I understand your description.
« Last Edit: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:17:51 by input nirvana »
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Offline Gerk

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« Reply #20 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:19:05 »
Yep it's setup as a finger key from the slope, not a thumb key.  I was already sort of planning on mapping it somewhere else (like the right shift).

From their site:
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #21 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:29:47 »
Quote from: Gerk;469259
Yep it's setup as a finger key from the slope, not a thumb key.  I was already sort of planning on mapping it somewhere else (like the right shift).

From their site:
Show Image


You referring to his backspace key as a finger key? If so, I think it's a bummer, but I'll wait to hear his thoughts. It seems too far out of the way for a finger. BUT, as a Kinesis user, I'm pretty spoiled as far as not moving my fingers off the home row.
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Offline Gerk

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« Reply #22 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 19:46:27 »
Yep it looks like all of the middle ones are, but I will also wait for him to confirm .. the pics on the TE site are for sure.
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Offline cbf123

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« Reply #23 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 22:04:13 »
The slope of the keys in the center column matches the pics on the site.  Backspace (between the b and n) works fine as a finger key, but I think the enter key should have been made a thumb key.

I still haven't really used it all that much (needed to be productive at work) but I'm fairly sure I'm going to swap ctrl and shift and then make the right shift an enter key. Muscle memory is too hard to break for no good reason.  As a Linux command-line guy and coder I'm also not entirely convinced it was a good idea to move the tick and slash keys around, but I'll give it a fair try.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #24 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 22:12:49 »
Do you take your fingers off home row to hit the backspace key?

How do you mean the enter should have been made a thumb key? The slope of the key cap?
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Offline cbf123

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« Reply #25 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 23:25:11 »
Quote from: input nirvana;469353
Do you take your fingers off home row to hit the backspace key?

How do you mean the enter should have been made a thumb key? The slope of the key cap?

Yes, I pretty much can't hit the center keys without moving the rest of my fingers.  When I hit the backspace key the rest of my fingers tend to naturally drift towards the center by a couple of keys on the home row.  The bottom center key is the exception as it can be hit by the thumbs without moving the fingers from the home row.  This is almost certainly why they moved the enter key to the bottom, but the fact that it's angled the same as the other center keys means that the thumb hits the edge rather than the angled top surface like on the spacebars.

I think it would have made sense to dedicate the bottom center button to the thumbs, but angle it downwards like the spacebars rather than upwards like the other center keys.
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #26 on: Mon, 12 December 2011, 23:46:57 »
Hmm, they should have moved the middle column one position down, close to the bottom edge of the keyboard (or add an extra key in there). This way both the Enter and Backspace would be easier operable by the thumb without moving your hand.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #27 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 00:13:27 »
Dang, that's not what I wanted to hear :(

What are your thoughts of the 2 movement clusters, do you think you will be able to hit the correct keys touch typing? I looks like there are a fair amount of physical cues and should be easy. I like it from a design standpoint, but usability is everything.

How does if feel being the GH guinea pig?
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Offline cbf123

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« Reply #28 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 00:45:03 »
Quote from: sordna;469395
Hmm, they should have moved the middle column one position down, close to the bottom edge of the keyboard (or add an extra key in there). This way both the Enter and Backspace would be easier operable by the thumb without moving your hand.

Not enough room for an extra key, but shifting it down by half a key would allow the thumbs to operate both enter and backspace, assuming proper keycaps.

Quote from: input nirvana;469415
What are your thoughts of the 2 movement clusters, do you think you will be able to hit the correct keys touch typing? I looks like there are a fair amount of physical cues and should be easy. I like it from a design standpoint, but usability is everything.

How does if feel being the GH guinea pig?

It's going to take a while to get used to this thing.  The movement clusters are logical-I'm liking the deeper-rather-than-wider thing, but you need to shift over a key as you shift down.  I think it'll be okay once I get used to it.  Biggest issues at this point are putting shift and enter where they're supposed to be.

At this point I think my dream keyboard would a bastard love-child of this, the utron, and a miniguru.

As for being the GH guinea pig, gotta get in while I can...pretty soon someone else will get theirs and write a real review complete with teardown and instructions on reflashing the firmware.  :)
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #29 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 00:48:00 »
Does the keyboard come with a manual (either printed or soft copy) that you could share, and/or software? I'd like to learn about the programmability features.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #30 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 01:23:05 »
I noticed the "shifting over" in using the clusters, or re-train the brain to use the ring finger as the up/down finger...dunno, but it could work. "Deeper than wider"?

I assume the f-row is of no touch type value? But the CAP/NUM and maybe the Fn might be touch type-able?

A TE/U-tron/Miniguru bastardio....let's do it :)
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Offline cbf123

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« Reply #31 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 09:02:11 »
No manual.  I've sent a message to TE asking about a few things including that, will pass on any answers I get.

By "deeper rather than wider" I just mean taking the keys normally off to the right even on a typical tenkeyless and moving them above/below the central clusters.

The F-row is not really suitable for touch-type, but I think the Esc, Del, Super, and PrtScn could be used as they are easily locatable.
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« Reply #32 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 11:14:28 »
wow.  Didn't catch this thread yesterday.  TE actually delivered!  (just not to me yet)

Sounds like the fit and finish is pretty decent.  With all the delays, I would certainly hope so.

Definitely post up a review once you log some time on it.

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #33 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 11:16:02 »
Curious as to what method they used to deliver and if you got any advance notification of it or not ... getting anxious to get mine in my hands :)
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Offline cbf123

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« Reply #34 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 11:49:17 »
Quote from: Gerk;469701
Curious as to what method they used to deliver and if you got any advance notification of it or not ... getting anxious to get mine in my hands :)

Mine came FedEx, no advance notice.
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Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #35 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 11:54:22 »
Quote from: iMav;469699
wow.  Didn't catch this thread yesterday.  TE actually delivered!  (just not to me yet)
.

At this long-delayed point, I bet it seems like you're getting a freebie!
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
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Offline sordna

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« Reply #36 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 11:59:11 »
Quote from: cbf123;469742
Mine came FedEx, no advance notice.

What was the shipping method (2-day, ground, etc)? Also what state/province are you in? Not sure if you're in Canada or the US.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline cbf123

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« Reply #37 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 14:05:47 »
Quote from: sordna;469753
What was the shipping method (2-day, ground, etc)? Also what state/province are you in? Not sure if you're in Canada or the US.

Admit it, you just want my address so you can come and steal the keyboard.      2-day shipping, in Saskatoon, SK.
Daily drivers are:
Microsoft Natural (the original, and still going strong)
Microsoft Natural Elite

Offline sordna

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« Reply #38 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 14:35:20 »
So you're in Canada, makes sense. Gerk, I guess that means you should be getting yours before the USA folks.
Kinesis Contoured Advantage LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Contoured Model 110, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, KBC Poker (Cherry MX Red), IBM Space Saving keyboard (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #39 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 14:51:37 »
I'm hoping yes. Will report in if/when it arrives.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro

Offline Kindari

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« Reply #40 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 19:16:29 »
How much did it cost? I couldn't find the price on the website.

Offline hemflit

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« Reply #41 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 19:28:47 »
How heavy does it feel on the desk?

Out of curiosity, is it easy to find out what scancode it sends when you dipswitch one of the spacebars to "alternate"?

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« Reply #42 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 20:18:37 »
Quote from: input nirvana;469748
At this long-delayed point, I bet it seems like you're getting a freebie!
Maybe I'll throw it under the tree when it arrives.  ;)

Actually, we don't do Christmas presents at my house.  I've always felt it was a bit inappropriate and primarily fueled by the retail industry.  I go all out on birthday presents though.

Offline hashbaz

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« Reply #43 on: Tue, 13 December 2011, 21:14:21 »
Wait, this thread is about a keyboard??  I was hoping to find tips on low-impact unboxing techniques!

Offline Lanx

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« Reply #44 on: Wed, 14 December 2011, 00:12:18 »
Quote from: hashbaz;470176
Wait, this thread is about a keyboard??  I was hoping to find tips on low-impact unboxing techniques!

many items such as TV's have instructions such as "Open here" or "This side up" this will save you a bad back and a broken tv screen in the future.

Offline Mackansson

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« Reply #45 on: Wed, 14 December 2011, 00:44:23 »
Weee, I (probably) get a keyboard for Christmas!

http://www.fedex.com/Tracking?ascend_header=1&clienttype=dotcom&mi=n&cntry_code=us&language=english&tracknumbers=485400893114

(got the tracking number by emailing them and asking for an estimated delivery date)

Offline Input Nirvana

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« Reply #46 on: Wed, 14 December 2011, 01:14:11 »
Quote from: hashbaz;470176
Wait, this thread is about a keyboard??  I was hoping to find tips on low-impact unboxing techniques!

Dude...shut UP! lol
Kinesis Advantage | RollerMouse Free 2 | Apple Magic Trackpad | Alphagrip | Colemak | all on Mac
Evil Screaming Flying Door Monkeys From Hell           Proudly GeekWhacking since 2009
Staying in touch with Tapatalk Pro                               Thanks much, Smallfry  
I AM THE REAPER . . . BECAUSE I KILL IT
~retired from forum activities 2015~

Offline Gerk

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« Reply #47 on: Wed, 14 December 2011, 12:20:00 »
I got tracking info from them today too. Should get mine by Friday if all goes well, maybe sooner.
Rosewill RK-9000RE (reds) | Das Keyboard Model S Professional Silent (browns) | Leopold TKL (browns) | F21-7D "Mechanical Keyboard" (Blue Alps) | Filco Majestouch TKL (blues) | Goldtouch V2 x 2 | Matias Ergo Pro

Offline cbf123

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« Reply #48 on: Wed, 14 December 2011, 13:30:24 »
Quote from: hemflit;470111
How heavy does it feel on the desk?

Out of curiosity, is it easy to find out what scancode it sends when you dipswitch one of the spacebars to "alternate"?


Not really sure how to answer that.  It feels solidly build, doesn't move around.  When the dipswitch is set, the left spacebar sends decimal 103, the right decimal 65.
Daily drivers are:
Microsoft Natural (the original, and still going strong)
Microsoft Natural Elite

Offline Findecanor

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« Reply #49 on: Wed, 14 December 2011, 14:34:09 »
I'm looking forwards to the reviews of this keyboard.
Home: Phantom (Lubricated Cherry MX Clear, Custom case, Thick laser-etched Cherry PBT keycaps, Custom firmware).
Work: Ducky G2 Pro TKL. Cherry MX Clear. Dark blue blank Leopold keycaps.