Touch Typing

[rhizo]

Hi, i wasnt sure where to put this so i thought id put it in this section as it seems to fit, but how did you learn to touch type? i can type at around 50-60wpm and dont usually look at my keyboard, but id love to learn how to properly touch type. Thanks!
Edit: maybe more suited to off topic? i dont know :/

[FinancialWar]

I don't think you are going to get much benefit by learning touch typing if you are already able to type without looking and typing at the speed you are. However, you might be able get 10-20 wpm improvement by learning touch typing.

[rhizo]

hmm okay, i guess the time saved wouldnt be worth it for the time id have to spend? thanks btw

[davkol]

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[rhizo]

I've no idea, how you type. I know few people who kind of 'hunt and peck' but mostly without looking at the keyboard all the time, they can type quite fast and use seven fingers. Seems OK, but touch-typing is more comfortable and there might be some speed improvement as well. That's why I learned to touch-type and later switched to Colemak.

yeah this was my general consensus, its comfortable enough, and i do the hunt and peck, never look at the keyboard and now im contemplating whether it is worth the time to convert to touch typing..

[Culinia]

Learn to touch type in Colemak, we need new converts to lower the prices of group buys and the like, plus there are benefits

[rhizo]

Learn to touch type in Colemak, we need new converts to lower the prices of group buys and the like, plus there are benefits

what are the benefits? and surely it is really difficult to learn? i was brought up knowing qwerty so is it difficult and is their a relative timeframe it usually takes people?

[Culinia]

As far as benefits goes, most of the typing is done on the home row so less finger distance and feels generally more logical (or less scattered) than QWERTY.

Also there has been some analysis on this subject here and basically if QWERTY takes 100% effort i.e. the most then Colemak would take 34.4% effort (dvorak probably 2nd popular after QWERTY alternative takes 39.7%). Unlike the Dvorak, most of QWERTY symbols stay in the same position as well as punctuation so it is easier to transition to it

As others said if you are happy with the way you type and are comfortable in doing so, then why not carry on with with what you're doing. If you intend to improve your speed then there's that time vs effort thing. If you are going to want to touch type the 'proper technique' then why not have some fun with a new layout That's what I say at least

[rhizo]

As far as benefits goes, most of the typing is done on the home row so less finger distance and feels generally more logical (or less scattered) than QWERTY.

Also there has been some analysis on this subject here and basically if QWERTY takes 100% effort i.e. the most then Colemak would take 34.4% effort (dvorak probably 2nd popular after QWERTY alternative takes 39.7%). Unlike the Dvorak, most of QWERTY symbols stay in the same position as well as punctuation so it is easier to transition to it

As others said if you are happy with the way you type and are comfortable in doing so, then why not carry on with with what you're doing. If you intend to improve your speed then there's that time vs effort thing. If you are going to want to touch type the 'proper technique' then why not have some fun with a new layout That's what I say at least

yeah, i think ill give it a try and lucky for me iv just bought a keyboard that comes with blank keycaps how long do you think untill i start getting to 50wpm? a month? 3 months?

[davkol]

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[rhizo]

Some people get there in few weeks. I've always been a bit slow (55 wpm was my maximum on QWERTY) and I'm at 50 wpm again after 4.5 months with Colemak. I actually did some mistakes like not learning the layout by heart and not practicing much before going "cold turkey" but I'm happy after all.

before going cold turkey? what do you mean by that?

[Keymonger]

IMO, touch typing makes no sense without the right switches, layout and keyboard. But not everyone has a truly ergonomic or whatever, and because these types of keyboards are not readily available, I'd only recommend proper touch typing if you type an awful lot. Standard layouts and keyboards are too stupidly designed to bother with 'proper' touch typing.

[rhizo]

IMO, touch typing makes no sense without the right switches, layout and keyboard. But not everyone has a truly ergonomic or whatever, and because these types of keyboards are not readily available, I'd only recommend proper touch typing if you type an awful lot. Standard layouts and keyboards are too stupidly designed to bother with 'proper' touch typing.

yeah i guess so, qwerty is retarded i have to say, it has no logic at all, but i guess its easier for day to day life to just stick with it, and just keep my dibble-dabble approach thanks!

[davkol]

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[Culinia]

before going cold turkey? what do you mean by that?

Cold turkey in this context basically means typing in colemak all the time. I think davkol is trying to convey that before you type just in colemak, you need to start 'cold turkey' later with more practice than sooner with little practice where you could make more mistakes.

As opposed to switching back to to qwerty intermittently if for instance because it is more more economical to do so because you have not reached speed so can't work like that.

I see what Keymonger is saying regarding it is not worth learning 'proper techniques' if you do not type alot. However I would counteract this by saying since all public keyboards are 'standard' i.e. not ergonomic and assuming that the keyboard you have bought is standard, then it perhaps makes sense learning touch typing since the skills would be used on once you have learnt it - skill for life, you will never forget it (although you might be slow if you have not typed for a while, was 53wpm qwerty, just did a typing test, can manage 30wpm in qwerty after several months of just colemak). Although I do agree it makes better sense if you are on a mechanical keyboard which was one of the main reasons why I learned to touch type...
You can read about my QWERTY > Colemak experience and initial concerns here if you are interested.

[rhizo]

Cold turkey in this context basically means typing in colemak all the time. I think davkol is trying to convey that before you type just in colemak, you need to start 'cold turkey' later with more practice than sooner with little practice where you could make more mistakes.

As opposed to switching back to to qwerty intermittently if for instance because it is more more economical to do so because you have not reached speed so can't work like that.

I see what Keymonger is saying regarding it is not worth learning 'proper techniques' if you do not type alot. However I would counteract this by saying since all public keyboards are 'standard' i.e. not ergonomic and assuming that the keyboard you have bought is standard, then it perhaps makes sense learning touch typing since the skills would be used on once you have learnt it - skill for life, you will never forget it (although you might be slow if you have not typed for a while, was 53wpm qwerty, just did a typing test, can manage 30wpm in qwerty after several months of just colemak). Although I do agree it makes better sense if you are on a mechanical keyboard which was one of the main reasons why I learned to touch type...
You can read about my QWERTY > Colemak experience and initial concerns here if you are interested.

ok thanks because i think i might try and learn it just to make my keyboard purchase "acceptable" for myself... but i still dont know.. thanks for the link btw!

[rhizo]

ok,im thinking i might hold back on this, im on 2wpm... :/ in might learn touch typing on qwerty because atleast im on 20wpm atm? whats your opinion?

[pyro]

If you type a lot, learn Colemak, Dvorak, or QGMLWB. To do that you'll have to find 2 weeks, where your typing speed won't matter, because that's about the time you'll need to get somewhat accustomed to the new layout (to about 40 wpm).

If you don't type a lot, but are typing at 20 wpm in QWERTY, you might just as well learn a new layout.

[davkol]

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[rhizo]

If you type a lot, learn Colemak, Dvorak, or QGMLWB. To do that you'll have to find 2 weeks, where your typing speed won't matter, because that's about the time you'll need to get somewhat accustomed to the new layout (to about 40 wpm).

If you don't type a lot, but are typing at 20 wpm in QWERTY, you might just as well learn a new layout.

i can type 60wpm on qwerty but 20wpm on qwerty when touchtyping im thinking about making the switch but i might just go for it and maybe in summer holidays learn colemak on a cold turkey basis.. asap is how i role

[Thinkpad Fan]

QWERTY was developed to maximize separation of the mechanical typeface hammers during typing - to prevent locking up the orignal, manual typewriters!  As such, there never was much concern about "logic" - but rather mechanical necessity for the time (before 1900!).

The reason to learn and use QWERTY properly, though, is because it is universal and dominant in the world's installed equipment base.  You can learn a one off, oddball "new system", but the next machine you sit down at in another office is going to be a QWERTY.  So unless you work from home as a writer, or have complete control over the equipment you are issued/use - don't bother with the allegedly "superior" (but odd ball) stuff.  All systems are about wiring your brain to unconciously hit the right keys at the right time - and you can do that with QWERTY, too.  

Learning to type on standard equipment correctly will give you 40-80 wpm with near perfect results, more if you practice.  There are electronic programs you can buy now to teach yourself Touch Typing.  I am ever so grateful my dear Mother made me take typing in school in 1970.   Thinkpad Fan

[rhizo]

QWERTY was developed to maximize separation of the mechanical typeface hammers during typing - to prevent locking up the orignal, manual typewriters!  As such, there never was much concern about "logic" - but rather mechanical necessity for the time (before 1900!).

The reason to learn and use QWERTY properly, though, is because it is universal and dominant in the world's installed equipment base.  You can learn a one off, oddball "new system", but the next machine you sit down at in another office is going to be a QWERTY.  So unless you work from home as a writer, or have complete control over the equipment you are issued/use - don't bother with the allegedly "superior" (but odd ball) stuff.  All systems are about wiring your brain to unconciously hit the right keys at the right time - and you can do that with QWERTY, too.  

Learning to type on standard equipment correctly will give you 40-80 wpm with near perfect results, more if you practice.  There are electronic programs you can buy now to teach yourself Touch Typing.  I am ever so grateful my dear Mother made me take typing in school in 1970.   Thinkpad Fan

thanks for clarifying and giving me a history lesson too! i will stick to qwerty just due to the just well spread around(ness) of it.. learning to touchtype i am sceptical on though and am still wondering if its worth the time :/

[davkol]

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[rhizo]

I have to strongly disagree. I don't know, where OP lives, but here most people use English QWERTY or national QWERTZ. This means you need to know two slightly different layouts, or have to look at the keyboard when typing special characters (and deal with swapped Z and Y). All computers with MS Windows, Mac OS X or GNU/Linux already have Dvorak and it's usually quite easy to get Colemak to work (especially on GNU/Linux, OS X is OK as well, I haven't tried with MS Windows). And random strange computers have terrible keyboards with different layouts (shift, backspace, enter, delete, insert, altgr to name just a few problematic keys). Therefore, it's almost impossible to type efficiently on all computers. On the other hand, it's possible to learn more layouts and be able to use all of them.

here in the uk every keyboard is uk qwerty and i have never seen any other type so thats not a problem... i can pretty much type at 50-60 wpm on my laptop keyboard, my desktop keyboard, and pretty much any other keyboard iv encountered so im confused.. :/

[davkol]

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[rhizo]

I think this might be because you don't touch type. Most touch-typists I know require some particular layout: they (their fingers) assume that keys are at specific positions. It might be more consistent in the UK but I don't think all keyboards are exactly the same. And some keyboards are really, really bad... I take care of one computer with old stiff low-profile labtec keyboard and I couldn't touch type on it even before switching to Colemak.

yeah probably, so maybe i should just stay as i do now? because its rather convenient?

[Culinia]

Well basically it really is up to you in the end, as you've got to make the effort to make it happen, hehe.

I know you said at the start you'd "love to learn how to properly touch type" - why is this. Perhaps you could explain more. Was it something you've always wanted to do?
I can go from personal experience and wanting to touch type was always something I had wanted to do from junior school. Only problem is I didn't take action after along time, only when I felt the need to do it because as I've said I'd acquired a mechanical keyboard, felt rather indifferent to it (was planning to return it), and essentially to justify it's expense (£120 a lot of money for a keyboard) I learned to touch type in QWERTY, and 'why not?' since virtually all UK keyboards are in this layout I thought.

It was my obsession of having things optimized and questioning of why things happen this way that led me to researching different layouts, I intended to go for Dvorak because I heard of that one earlier, plus it seems to be integrated within MS Windows but settled on Colemak on the end. Reasons being it is similar to qwerty in terms of layout and not much keys moved plus from that link I showed you earlier, it seemed to be more efficient at the time. In terms of 'carrying' the layout with me is no trouble, I can easily switch using portable apps on a mem stick to Colemak easily and have easily integrated it myself using MS Keyboard Layout Creator 1.4 to all my home computers.

Now the question whether or not you would want to learn to touch type in another layout is up to your circumstances.

Do you find yourself on other computers alot? If so, qwerty would seem obvious since essentially this is the default keyboard and you can go switch easily between them. But you can also consider the possibility of switching between home-Colemak and work-QWERTY, people over on the colemak forums do this successfully.

Do you find yourself on your personal computers more? If so, then it might be worth it since there would be less 'hassle' (doesn't take long) for switching the layout small times per week. So good consideration.

If you asked me do I think it was worth learning to touch type I would say yes, in my opinion it makes you truly appreciate the mechanical keyboard and has been a learning phase, something I would have never thought about before in terms of keyboard types/feelings/manufacturers. But that was me, although I have been 'typing' many years previously, I did not develop non-standard 'touch typing' I had to peek now and then, lol. So maybe the benefit for you would not be worth it since from what you have written seems to be working fine for you. As I suggested earlier on this post maybe if you can tell us more about your goals and what you want to achieve by 'proper' touch typing we can help you further?

But whatever you do, you have to remember it takes time and effort (as with everything in life, unfortunately), and if you are not willing to put the time and effort in then maybe it's not worth it for you. Anyway, hope this helps.

[rhizo]

Well basically it really is up to you in the end, as you've got to make the effort to make it happen, hehe.

I know you said at the start you'd "love to learn how to properly touch type" - why is this. Perhaps you could explain more. Was it something you've always wanted to do?
I can go from personal experience and wanting to touch type was always something I had wanted to do from junior school. Only problem is I didn't take action after along time, only when I felt the need to do it because as I've said I'd acquired a mechanical keyboard, felt rather indifferent to it (was planning to return it), and essentially to justify it's expense (£120 a lot of money for a keyboard) I learned to touch type in QWERTY, and 'why not?' since virtually all UK keyboards are in this layout I thought.

It was my obsession of having things optimized and questioning of why things happen this way that led me to researching different layouts, I intended to go for Dvorak because I heard of that one earlier, plus it seems to be integrated within MS Windows but settled on Colemak on the end. Reasons being it is similar to qwerty in terms of layout and not much keys moved plus from that link I showed you earlier, it seemed to be more efficient at the time. In terms of 'carrying' the layout with me is no trouble, I can easily switch using portable apps on a mem stick to Colemak easily and have easily integrated it myself using MS Keyboard Layout Creator 1.4 to all my home computers.

Now the question whether or not you would want to learn to touch type in another layout is up to your circumstances.

Do you find yourself on other computers alot? If so, qwerty would seem obvious since essentially this is the default keyboard and you can go switch easily between them. But you can also consider the possibility of switching between home-Colemak and work-QWERTY, people over on the colemak forums do this successfully.

Do you find yourself on your personal computers more? If so, then it might be worth it since there would be less 'hassle' (doesn't take long) for switching the layout small times per week. So good consideration.

If you asked me do I think it was worth learning to touch type I would say yes, in my opinion it makes you truly appreciate the mechanical keyboard and has been a learning phase, something I would have never thought about before in terms of keyboard types/feelings/manufacturers. But that was me, although I have been 'typing' many years previously, I did not develop non-standard 'touch typing' I had to peek now and then, lol. So maybe the benefit for you would not be worth it since from what you have written seems to be working fine for you. As I suggested earlier on this post maybe if you can tell us more about your goals and what you want to achieve by 'proper' touch typing we can help you further?

But whatever you do, you have to remember it takes time and effort (as with everything in life, unfortunately), and if you are not willing to put the time and effort in then maybe it's not worth it for you. Anyway, hope this helps.

Hi, thanks for what you said, and that is pretty much what i am thinking about, to justify the cost i would like to learn to touch type, and even when practicing at 20wpm it feels like so much less strain...

[sordna]

Actually, it's possible to learn more than 1 layout. I touch type Dvorak (100 wpm) and QWERTY (70 wpm) in typing tests (regular sustained typing is slower of course). I don't properly touch type QWERTY (don't have to look, but my fingers are all over the place) however I properly touch type in Dvorak since I learnt it on a Kinesis contoured keyboard which forces you to use the correct fingers. If you do a lot of typing and can afford it, I highly recommend such a keyboard both as a learning and productivity tool!

[NewbieOneKenobi]

The reason to learn and use QWERTY properly, though, is because it is universal and dominant in the world's installed equipment base.  You can learn a one off, oddball "new system", but the next machine you sit down at in another office is going to be a QWERTY.  So unless you work from home as a writer, or have complete control over the equipment you are issued/use - don't bother with the allegedly "superior" (but odd ball) stuff.  All systems are about wiring your brain to unconciously hit the right keys at the right time - and you can do that with QWERTY, too.

True an all accounts, as far as I go. I'm a translator. What's good for one language isn't necessarily as good for the other. Also, since the other language contains characters unknown to English and obtained with the use of AltGr, for anything that's not English, I'd need to create a custom keyboard layout for Windows. Since I certainly am not going to change layout when changing the language I type in.

Also, I sort of learnt to touch-type subconsciously. I don't need to look at key captions to type but it helps if I'm able to see the movement of my hands. I'm disoriented if I try to type while looking at the ceiling on purpose, although I can keep typing while talking to somebody else and looking at that person, away from keyboard. At times I need to take a look to readjust. This is not 100% proper touch-typing but basically, functionally, I just touch type. It simply sank in with time, the basic principle consisting in the use of 10 fingers to type, and more or less consistently. If you do that, you'll probably stop having to look. As for speed, it may be a function of your agility. I suspect error rate falls if you learn to touch-type using the proper techniques and proper ways of learning but I can't be sure because I'm somewhat erratic due to some kind of coordination impairment, so I can't really tell.

***

As a different poster said, get yourself the right keyboard for you if you're serious about typing. Find out the balance between fatigue and necessary resistance, and the extent of tactile feedback you need (and if you need none, that's fine, too, as there are people who type on linear switches by choice, those don't "bump up" or produce a click). I love my tenkeyless (no numpad section) Filco with blue Cherry switches (tactile feedback plus clicky sound) but I think the browns would be better for me, as in even a lighter switch would still produce plenty enough feedback, while allowing for faster typing, which is my ultimate goal, especially when I get paid based on text size. On the other hand, some people won't be able to type comfortably on blacks or possibly even blue, they will require strong resistance, something like the old IBM keyboards (which, however, can be used without exerting that much effort, as they're easy to type on without bottoming out, as compared to blue Cherries, in my opinion).

[Playtrumpet]

Wish I'd seen this thread earlier. What I hope you will take away from discussion is that learning a new layout is a real endeavor that requires some serious dedication. I know a lot of people who started to learn a new layout and stopped because they didn't have the mental drive to make it passed the stage of super slow typing.

And I need to say, proper QWERTY touch typing is not more efficient than your own QWERTY interpretation as long as you're utilizing all of your fingers and can type without looking. QWERTY wasn't made specifically for finger ergonomics, which is why so many of us never typed in QWERTY properly. I think Sean Wrona (one of the world's fastest QWERTY typists) describes it best when he says (I'm paraphrasing) he uses the most efficient fingers for each upcoming word, which is often not the same finger for each letter. Other layouts (Dvorak, Colemak and so many others) were made so the typist could learn the layout and not have to make these adjustments (or not nearly as many anyway).

So my recommendation, though I don't know what you're learning now, is to consider becoming better at your own QWERTY style rather than learn "proper" QWERTY typing - but if you're not happy with that, then you could consider changing layouts. If you really are considering this, try to do your research. Most alterate layouts have fundamental differences that may sway or deter you, so read up.

That's my input.

[rhizo]

Wish I'd seen this thread earlier. What I hope you will take away from discussion is that learning a new layout is a real endeavor that requires some serious dedication. I know a lot of people who started to learn a new layout and stopped because they didn't have the mental drive to make it passed the stage of super slow typing.

And I need to say, proper QWERTY touch typing is not more efficient than your own QWERTY interpretation as long as you're utilizing all of your fingers and can type without looking. QWERTY wasn't made specifically for finger ergonomics, which is why so many of us never typed in QWERTY properly. I think Sean Wrona (one of the world's fastest QWERTY typists) describes it best when he says (I'm paraphrasing) he uses the most efficient fingers for each upcoming word, which is often not the same finger for each letter. Other layouts (Dvorak, Colemak and so many others) were made so the typist could learn the layout and not have to make these adjustments (or not nearly as many anyway).

So my recommendation, though I don't know what you're learning now, is to consider becoming better at your own QWERTY style rather than learn "proper" QWERTY typing - but if you're not happy with that, then you could consider changing layouts. If you really are considering this, try to do your research. Most alterate layouts have fundamental differences that may sway or deter you, so read up.

That's my input.

I think im going to stick with my current style and just hope to get more accurate and faster over time, Thanks!

[theLiminator]

The funny thing is I type at 100 wpm, but i'm still contemplating fixing my typing method. I don't properly touch type, I only use two fingers on my right hand (three including backspace). I'm trying to learn proper QWERTY, but I think it's not worth my time. I likely won't speed up much (if at all), but might make it easier on my left hand.

[FinancialWar]

The funny thing is I type at 100 wpm, but i'm still contemplating fixing my typing method. I don't properly touch type, I only use two fingers on my right hand (three including backspace). I'm trying to learn proper QWERTY, but I think it's not worth my time. I likely won't speed up much (if at all), but might make it easier on my left hand.

prove it with a youtube video or it didn't happen.

[enoy21]

The toughest thing for me and the reason I learned to touch type was the constant errors from having to physically move my hands around the board.  Because I was typing with only my first 3-4 fingers and almost never using my pinky and rarely my ring fingers I found issues with not putting my hands in the proper place and making alot of errors.

The way I made the change ( and still getting back up to speed ) was to use something like  http://www.keyhero.com/typing-tests-wpm/  and  http://www.typingweb.com/typingtutor/


The biggest issue I had with typing web was that there was no sense of flow to the typing so I ended up topping out at around 30 wpm.  BUT by focusing on hitting say 30 wpm with < 3% error rate I began to train my fingers with muscle memory. Then when I went up to the keyhero , I quickly found that I was typing much better.

It's much like the Karate Kid.  "paint deh fehnce" ... "Wax deh fluwa"  The remedial task of the repetitive movements  helped alot when I just stopped thinking about it and just did it.

Oh and two other things.

1 ALWAYS practice while doing everyday typing,  even when in a hurry , you will be much slower at times and get frustrated but it will get better over time.
2 Never let spell checker correct your typos with the mouse. When you see the error back up and do it correctly.

[davkol]

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[rhizo]

sorry for reviving this old topic but i just realised that i only actually type with my 2 index fingers, and nothing else... although i can type at 60wpm it is getting uncomfortable, and im sure i could get faster using more fingers but was wondering if i should just learn to touchtype, or just to try and use more fingers? Thanks.

[sordna]

Touch typing is worth it, not so much for speed, but for comfort and for being able to type without looking at the keyboard at all.

[fossala]

Touch typing is a better investment than a mechanical keyboard for comfort.

[Playtrumpet]

Hmm. Again I want to say touch typing is the way to go, but I really think you should just learn to use your other fingers comfortably. Qwerty allows for different fingers to type the same letters depending on the word, which is why (for those who began typing before learning how to type properly) so many people have their own Qwerty style (while still using all or most fingers).

[sordna]

Touch typing is a better investment than a mechanical keyboard for comfort.

Hmm, it's on par with an LF :-) But that kind of board will teach you to touch type anyway!

[rhizo]

Hmm, it's on par with an LF :-) But that kind of board will teach you to touch type anyway!

i may have to pick one up as my next board but untill then i am trying to touch type properly now and although slow now, it feels really comfortable and my fingers feel at peace... stupid filco mj1 with mx browns has been stuck at customs for 2 days so im hoping it arrives next week :/

[RiGS]

Hmm, it's on par with an LF :-) But that kind of board will teach you to touch type anyway!

So do the variable Realforce.

[sordna]

Maybe for the pinkies, but you'll still likely type the num row with the wrong fingers and the middle column letters with the wrong hand altogether!

[RiGS]

The kinesis is useless for watching porn, as it is not suitable for one handed typing.

[Input Nirvana]

The kinesis is useless for watching porn, as it is not suitable for one handed typing.

ick

get a girlfriend

[rhizo]

The kinesis is useless for watching porn, as it is not suitable for one handed typing.

Perfect. [ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 38796[/ATTACH]

[sordna]

Never thought of adding this to the long list of impressive Kinesis features: will improve your morality

:-)

[rhizo]

Never thought of adding this to the long list of impressive Kinesis features: will improve your morality

:-)

just saw your try and forward... us only

[sordna]

canada too, where are you located?