Next GH-brewed KB design - 'The Light' (open for discussion)

[hazeluff]

If the holes don't affect routing , we should be fine. I'm trying to aim this to those who don't want to mod more than just putting in switches in a layout. But I won't cater to it, if it means heavy (re)design of the board and such. For those willing like you, 10 mins work on the plastic isn't too bad.

[The_Ed]

We will NOT be using the RED "barrels" to mount the PCB. We will be using the 5 BLUE screw holes and 2 BLUE stabilizing pins. I don't yet know for sure exactly where those 5 screw holes match on the PCB so we may have to use less. The 2 stabilizing pins do not interfere with anything.

[hazeluff]

So seems like alls good = D

[The_Ed]

Those 5 screw holes mean that some PCBs must have used both the "barrels" and screws. Those things weren't goin' nowhere. It looks like only the 2 screw holes on the ends can be used for sure. So 2 screws and 2 stabilizing pins for sure. The other 3 screw holes are up to careful measurement...

[The_Ed]

The GeekHack servers must hate me right now. I'm taking up all the bandwidth with my pictures. My sister's new camera is awesome. She'll scream at me later when she realizes I took it from her room.

"You are currently using 29.44 MB to store 38 uploaded attachments." - Yeah and it takes FOREVER to upload that much to these slow ass servers...

I told her I used it... I got screamed at... I'm forbidden from using it again... I'll still use it when I want... Rinse and repeat...

[hazeluff]

The GeekHack servers must hate me right now. I'm taking up all the bandwidth with my pictures. My sister's new camera is awesome. She'll scream at me later when she realizes I took it from her room.

"You are currently using 29.44 MB to store 38 uploaded attachments." - Yeah and it takes FOREVER to upload that much to these slow ass servers...

I told her I used it... I got screamed at... I'm forbidden from using it again... I'll still use it when I want... Rinse and repeat...

Hell yeah = p

I have a ton of attachments as well @_@.

Anyway, since nothing bad seems to be going on. I'm gonna leave it be and go to bed. Gotta wake up in 3 hours for a lecture...LOL Me and my sleeping patterns. I gotta learn sometime not to sleep so late...

[The_Ed]

Does anyone have any idea as to how I can mark where the center 3 screwholes line up on the PCB? Stick "something" in the screwholes and press the PCB onto it? When a "test" PCB is ordered I could be one of the people to test it to make sure it both fits in the case right and works properly.

I used a hole punch on double-sided tape. I stuck the dots of tape on the 5 screw holes and pressed the PCB against them. There are now 5 dots of tape stuck to the PCB. It doesn't look good for the 3 screw holes in the center. But the side 2 look like they won't interfere with anything. I will post a picture tomorrow when I get my sister's camera again.

I figured out why the servers take so long. I upload my pictures, and then it shrinks and compresses them to less than a quarter of their original size and quality! WHY?!!! Oh and hazeluff are you up again yet? Or are you sleeping through your lecture? I should probably be in bed myself... Oh yeah... Excedrin has caffeine... But at least my headache is barely noticeable. Now how do I sleep... Damnit! More people need to be awake now cause I'm bored... Guess I'll try to sleep now. Not that it'll do any good. I am kinda hungry though... Someone make me a sammich!...

[hazeluff]

I didnt wake up in time for my first lecture
 I am now. How about lay a bit of bluetack on the nobs. And press the bord ontop them and hopefully they stick

[Findecanor]

Can the Protruding bits be cut off?

Yes, and that is quite easy if you have modded plastic cases before, but it might not be for everyone.
Winkeyless cases are easier to modify, because they do not have those big-ass "barrels" (as The_Ed called them).

What's the reason for not being able to use plates?

There are "skirts" down the edges of the key groups. These touch the top of the PCB. To fit a plate in there, you would have to cut away approx. half the height of these skirts. This is tricky and a bit of work to do. The biggest difficulty is getting the height right. If you get that wrong then either it won't fit or the top will be wobbly.

Awful picture, but you can see the burrs where I have cut.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 39989[/ATTACH]

Gotta go. I'll post more later.

[hazeluff]

Yes, and that is quite easy if you have modded plastic cases before, but it might not be for everyone.
Winkeyless cases are easier to modify, because they do not have those big-ass "barrels" (as The_Ed called them).


There are "skirts" down the edges of the key groups. These touch the top of the PCB. To fit a plate in there, you would have to cut away approx. half the height of these skirts. This is tricky and a bit of work to do. The biggest difficulty is getting the height right. If you get that wrong then either it won't fit or the top will be wobbly.

Awful picture, but you can see the burrs where I have cut.
(Attachment Link) 39989[/ATTACH]

Gotta go. I'll post more later.

Well, i mean if you want to use one of the cherry cases you're gonna have to either mod or sacrifice the plate.

[hazeluff]

I've been bugging Melissa about making keycaps thet allow light through for the whole of yesterday.

Those keys shouldnt pass any light as they are colored to be opaque. I have a keycap molded out of PBT natural if you want to test it for backlighting...

"Those keys" refer to normal white PBT.

I am inquiring about this "PBT natural". And ask her if she'd kindly take a photo of it against any light source, just to see if it allows for much light.

[hazeluff]

Tell her hi.

Send her this link too:GLWIC.

On second thought, better not.

I know you're mad ripster. Calm down.

Here have a bagel.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40009[/ATTACH]

[The_Ed]

Here are the pictures of the double-sided tape dots I promised. The screw holes would be smaller and fit somewhere inside of the areas defined by the dots. Which means that only the side 2 screw holes can be used for sure. The center 3 look like they line up with the bottoms of switches. Am I right?







I hadn't noticed those "skirts" before. Here's a picture of what he's talking about. It looks like it'll take <10 minutes for those who aren't using a plate (like myself). But if you are using a plate it'll take about 30 minutes. I bet some people would rather make their own case than mod one for half an hour to make the plate fit. Why do people even like plates in the first place? What benefits do they bring? I can only think of cons... 1. They detract from the typing experience 2. They make it a pain in the ass to modify switches 3. They make the keyboard friggin' heavy... the list goes on...



Oh and just cause I'm bored, some entertainment.

[hazeluff]

I hadn't noticed those "skirts" before. Here's a picture of what he's talking about. It looks like it'll take <10 minutes for those who aren't using a plate (like myself). But if you are using a plate it'll take about 30 minutes. I bet some people would rather make their own case than mod one for half an hour to make the plate fit. Why do people even like plates in the first place? What benefits do they bring? I can only think of cons... 1. They detract from the typing experience 2. They make it a pain in the ass to modify switches 3. They make the keyboard friggin' heavy... the list goes on...

I don't know what you mean in 1). How does it detract from the typing experience?
2) Is invalid because we'll be using the nice pockets next to the switch holes, like on the phantom modifying switches will be the same difficulty as without the switch.
3) It does, but weights kind of good if you don't need to move the keyboard around a lot. The weight gives it stability.

Anything can be seen from different angles.

The sticky tape seems to line up either in the center or touching the bottom of the switch.

[The_Ed]

So are we just going to use the 2 screw holes on the sides and the 2 stabilizing pins to mount the PCB? This should be enough right?

Have you ever typed on PCB mounted mx? I have typed on both PCB and plate mounted, and I prefer the FEEL of PCB mounted. They both feel different, and unless you've tried both you can't comment on whether or not you like plates in my book.

[hazeluff]

So are we just going to use the 2 screw holes on the sides and the 2 stabilizing pins to mount the PCB? This should be enough right?

Have you ever typed on PCB mounted mx? I have typed on both PCB and plate mounted, and I prefer the FEEL of PCB mounted. They both feel different, and unless you've tried both you can't comment on whether or not you like plates in my book.

I have never, so I'm not commenting on the feel. I'm just commenting on the functionality of it. Should get one to give it a whirl.

[The_Ed]

I tested the rotary encoders I bought and oddly the left and middle pins are pins A and B, while the right pin is the shared Ground pin... From Digi-Key they were $12.60 (after tax and shipped) for 4 of them. They will work quite nicely as my volume and fast forward/rewind knobs. Now all I need is a PCB to wire them to... How long do you think it will take for the PCBs to be completed?

[hazeluff]

I tested the rotary encoders I bought and oddly the left and middle pins are pins A and B, while the right pin is the shared Ground pin... From Digi-Key they were $12.60 (after tax and shipped) for 4 of them. They will work quite nicely as my volume and fast forward/rewind knobs. Now all I need is a PCB to wire them to... How long do you think it will take for the PCBs to be completed?

I would assume you could mount it to the case like a lot of similar components. It's got that nut that clamps onto the case.

If you really need a board, get a veroboard? It's basically a PCB with metal strips and holes. Its cheaper and doesn't require it to be custom made. There should be ones where its not strips and just circular pads too.
http://www.verodirect.com/images/UploadedImages/01-0033.jpg

[The_Ed]

Technically without a custom PCB I would need 2 layers. A mounting layer that's just a blank board that I drill mounting holes in, and a wiring layer that has only circle contacts. That would mean a custom case that's friggin' high too. I won't be doing that much work, so I'll wait for this custom PCB. I just want you to throw out a rough estimate of when you think this custom PCB will be completed.

[hazeluff]

Technically without a custom PCB I would need 2 layers. A mounting layer that's just a blank board that I drill mounting holes in, and a wiring layer that has only circle contacts. That would mean a custom case that's friggin' high too. I won't be doing that much work, so I'll wait for this custom PCB. I just want you to throw out a rough estimate of when you think this custom PCB will be completed.

Expect quite a few months... at least...Since it's still being worked on and we're not rushing it (neither do I really have much time if it is made quickly). Uni work has got me occupied most of the time. So yeah.

We don't even know if our whole concept even works/is possible yet. So it's going to be at least some time.

Then again unless if someone else pushes this forth, it could be quite fast.

[The_Ed]

For POS cherry boards what does the third letter of A, B, C, or D signify? I just got a POS for parts on ebay and I noticed that some models have 4 model numbers. They look identical except for that third letter. Any Ideas? Or is cherry just being weird...

[The_Ed]

For the screw holes - I think that there should be 3 more screw holes in the space between f4/f5, f8/f9, and f12/prt sc/sys rq. Therefore if you use a cherry case you have the 2 screw holes on the sides and the 2 stabilizing pins. But if you use a custom case you could use 7 screws (using stabilizing pin holes for screws instead). I could probably mod a cherry case to be able to accept 7 screws myself even.

Oh and there are 31 new G80-3000LSCEU-2 going for $83.24 a piece right now. Makes those Leopold's look expensive right now. They should be US ANSI with € on the 5 key. Though my G80-3000LQCEU-2 came with a regular 5 key...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Cherry-G80-3000-Standard-Keyboard-G80-3000LSCEU-2-/380410644490?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item58923dc80a#ht_2329wt_1189

[hazeluff]

Update on translucent keycaps.

The best SP can do is use a material they call PBT Natural (I guess the PBT with no color added?). Melissa attached the following image to show me what it was like. It is a PBT natural keycap over a "very strong orange colored LED."

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 40427[/ATTACH]

So the key is that White color, and the yellow/orange is the LED shining through. I think it would look very nice as a keycap replacement for backlit keyboards. With that said, I will likely run this as a GB with the keyboard when it does happen = p. Or someone can pick it up and do it now if they'd like.

[The_Ed]

If an orange LED is yellow through the PBT, then what color will a blue LED be through the PBT?

[hazeluff]

If an orange LED is yellow through the PBT, then what color will a blue LED be through the PBT?

Either the PBT is absorbing Red light, or the color of the camera wasn't calibrated. Or maybe the orange LED was very Yellow. = / If you look at at the grey/black board around the key, you can see it is yellow and not orange. Suggesting the natural light of the LED is like that color.

I don't think its the PBT absorbing since it's color is white.
 
I don't think the keycap is distorting it (or very little).

[The_Ed]

Would these white "natural" PBT keycaps have the legends dye sublimated on? Or would they be able to doubleshot the white "natural" PBT into black keycaps?

[alaricljs]

There's no such thing as double-shot PBT because of the sizeable shrinkage of cooling PBT

[hazeluff]

We can't do doubleshot method. It doesn't work out no matter what material we use because of the "blocking" of light. Which is why I asked melissa about these PBTs.

PBTs have to be dyesubed if we want legends.

[The_Ed]

Dye Sublimated in cycloverid replica cherry font?

Would the letters themselves be what's dyed or everything but the letters? And if it's everything but the letters is that just the top or the top and the sides?

[hazeluff]

Dye Sublimated in cycloverid replica cherry font?

Would the letters themselves be what's dyed or everything but the letters? And if it's everything but the letters is that just the top or the top and the sides?

Dye the letters themselves. I think showing off the backlighting would be cool = D. Also there are no keys out there like this (I don't think), but all boards come with legends that light up.

I have made a replica Cherry font myself too, it might not be too pricy to put those on. Not sure how much SP charge for a ton of custom legends.

[The_Ed]

I think it would be cooler (and easier on my eyes) if everything but the letters was dye sublimated on the top. That way the letters and the entire sides would still glow. But it would allow for better contrast to be able to "see" the letters. I would then use blue LEDs because I find that blue lettering on a black background is easiest on my eyes. What do you think about that?

[The_Ed]

Deck only have the letters glow. The letters and sides would glow from what I'm suggesting.

[hazeluff]

About the only legend glowing. That method might not sit so well with SP. And I don't think SP will cover a key in dyesub. I mean there was the way of "paiting" the whole key but the legends, but that costs a lot too.

[The_Ed]

NOT the whole key is what I keep saying now. That would cost too much you said. I'm only talking about dye sublimating everything but the letters on the TOP of the keycaps. That means that the entire sides of the keycaps glow as well as the letters.

[hazeluff]

no, we get it.  they don't dye the sides of the key anyhow.

do you even know if they're willing to dye their clear/translucent plastic?

Well it's PBT, They'll probably do it.

I'm not sure how it'll look if we do it the way you described. Don't think many other people would be into it either.

[The_Ed]

Don't they do just that on the tops of the Deck keycaps?

[hazeluff]

it's one of those things where we'd need to see it first.

easiest way to get an impression of what it would look like is to get a set of blanks and get decals cut.  we'd need white balanced shots to see how different LEDs react to the plastic.  i'm also curious about the margins/boarders that SP could work with, assuming they'd be willing to cover ~95% of the key's top surface in dye.  i'm going to guess they'd want a premium for that much ink.

I think its very possible. >< Someone put a decal on their clear cap and test it. ><

[alaricljs]

Deck caps are printed ABS not dyesubbed PBT.  And yeah, they paint the negative.

[The_Ed]

From the FAQ on Deck's site:

NEVER! Characters can't chip off the key caps or wear down because we use a sublimated negative printing process which drives the ink into the plastic keycaps at 525°F. This means permanent printing from the inside out, not just on the top, and gives the letters a permanent place inside the plastic.

[hazeluff]

Interesting. I can't imagine SP charging us the same as just the legend if we cover the whole cap in dyesub ><.

[The_Ed]

Isn't the legend fee fixed?

[hazeluff]

Isn't the legend fee fixed?

No idea...Since they don't openly list prices. I could image they would charge w/e they want. And if I were them, this is the perfect excuse to charge more.

[The_Ed]

You better hope they don't read this thread...

[hazeluff]

Wondering if Prin is still working on a board, or if I should do something...

[The_Ed]

Do whatever you can to help get this rolling. As I have no experience making PCBs I can't really do much. Pictures and witty banter are pretty much all I can contribute. By the way, that "keycap flip" is quite clever. When I first saw it a while ago it took me a good 10 seconds of confusion before I saw "it". I'll have to figure out how to accurately measure those 7 holes to see "for sure" which ones can be used, and where "exactly" they would have to be put on the custom PCB. I'm thinking a rigid clear plastic sheet... Now all I have to do is find a big enough piece somewhere... Or is there a better way?

[The_Ed]

metafour thinks I'm related to you ripster. I personally don't see the resemblance.

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?20459-Second-Group-of-Brand-New-Official-Cherry-Double-Shot&p=518060&viewfull=1#post518060

Well... Maybe a little...

[hazeluff]

Do whatever you can to help get this rolling. As I have no experience making PCBs I can't really do much. Pictures and witty banter are pretty much all I can contribute. By the way, that "keycap flip" is quite clever. When I first saw it a while ago it took me a good 10 seconds of confusion before I saw "it". I'll have to figure out how to accurately measure those 7 holes to see "for sure" which ones can be used, and where "exactly" they would have to be put on the custom PCB. I'm thinking a rigid clear plastic sheet... Now all I have to do is find a big enough piece somewhere... Or is there a better way?

Thing is that Prin has a good start on it, I'm not sure I can be doing much to help. ><

[bpiphany]

I'm sort of still working on it... I need to read up a lot on the electronics =) I asked for some help on a Swedish electronics forum, and got a lot of good tips.

My design will be a universal Filco (perhaps also Poker) replacement board though. With a lot of extra options and bonus layouts with homemade cases. Like alpha+numpad instead of standard tenkeyless, and the ability to keep only the alpha plus any setup of the rest =)

I think I'm getting a good idea on how to wire everything. There will be shift registers to hold all the LED data, 6 rows × 3 per/row × 8 bits/registry, each row will be loaded serially, all rows in parallel, into a the storage registry, then the data is clocked out the outputs. The rows will be cycled by a separate decade counter clocked by a PWM output pin. Keypresses will be read through three buffers, six columns at a time.

Then there needs to be a lot of diodes like always, and a bunch of transistors, some capacitors all over the place and the MCU and all the extra components that it needs to have... I think I am going to stick to the ATmega32u4 like on the Teensy, then at least I know that the HID interface will be working =P The smaller ATmega32u2 would be easier to squeeze in, but I am unsure of how easy or possible it is to make the keyboard code run on it.. I don't know anything about this AVR business... Also I need to figure out how to program the MCU, I have a programmer that I at least think is able to do these MCUs =)

[hazeluff]

I'm sort of still working on it... I need to read up a lot on the electronics =) I asked for some help on a Swedish electronics forum, and got a lot of good tips.

My design will be a universal Filco (perhaps also Poker) replacement board though. With a lot of extra options and bonus layouts with homemade cases. Like alpha+numpad instead of standard tenkeyless, and the ability to keep only the alpha plus any setup of the rest =)

I think I'm getting a good idea on how to wire everything. There will be shift registers to hold all the LED data, 6 rows × 3 per/row × 8 bits/registry, each row will be loaded serially, all rows in parallel, into a the storage registry, then the data is clocked out the outputs. The rows will be cycled by a separate decade counter clocked by a PWM output pin. Keypresses will be read through three buffers, six columns at a time.

Then there needs to be a lot of diodes like always, and a bunch of transistors, some capacitors all over the place and the MCU and all the extra components that it needs to have... I think I am going to stick to the ATmega32u4 like on the Teensy, then at least I know that the HID interface will be working =P The smaller ATmega32u2 would be easier to squeeze in, but I am unsure of how easy or possible it is to make the keyboard code run on it.. I don't know anything about this AVR business... Also I need to figure out how to program the MCU, I have a programmer that I at least think is able to do these MCUs =)

I quite liked the idea of using the polling columns to shift through the LEDs as well, Is the shift registers really necessary?

Also, would it be hard for others to load, since not everyone has a programmer.

I might go head with what I had in mind and design with the teensy as the MCU. I think with the use of some FETs there doesn't need to be shift registers.

Have you documented any measurements for things that I could possibly get off of you? Also maybe components like diodes/resistors designs for the software. That would be handy.

[The_Ed]

Wait, 6 rows? I thought we were doing a 7 row 133 key board. And how could you possibly route it to work as a fullsize, tenkeyless, and poker?! That's a lot of extra circuitry you're adding too. Wouldn't that drive up the price too much? How is a filco replacement board "universal"?...

hazeluff - I don't know what FETs are, but if it turns out they can in fact be used, you should design a competing board. That way there would be a "filco - fullsize and tenkeyless, and poker" and a "cherry, custom (133 key)" version.

Crap... I went to Wikipedia...

Source (S), through which the majority carriers enter the channel. Conventional current entering the channel at S is designated by IS.
Drain (D), through which the majority carriers leave the channel. Conventional current entering the channel at D is designated by ID. Drain to Source voltage is VDS.
Gate (G), the terminal that modulates the channel conductivity. By applying voltage to G, one can control ID.

Show Image

So if I have this straight - Those Transister_NPN would be replaced by FETs. C would be Source (S), B would be Gate (G), and E would be Drain (D).

When in polling mode - the FETs on the LED rows would have their gates closed to prevent the LEDs from lighting up during polling. Each column would take it's turn having it's gate open to be polled through the switch rows.

When in LED lighting mode - The FETs on the LED rows would have their gates opened (when polled) to allow the LEDs to light up when they are polled. Each column would take it's turn having it's gate open to light up the LED rows that were polled.

Is this what you're trying to do?