Author Topic: Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean  (Read 3165 times)

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Online fohat.digs

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« on: Sun, 12 February 2012, 09:38:53 »
From the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 :

The   Congress   shall have Power
To declare War,  grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To provide for calling forth the Militia  to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Offline DesktopJinx

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 12 February 2012, 15:18:12 »
Ahh, the ridiculous single-key backspace, the I-just-want-to-pound-it Enter, the goofy stair-stepped Alt, the where'd-they-put-it Caps Lock, the no-really-where'd-they-put-it Esc, the there's-no-Enter numeric keypad, the mile-long spacebar... I'm going to love putting that in the conference room for a day. And if they thought the M was loud...

Seriously, the Model Fs are like the Model Ts of the PC keyboard world. Ubiquitous in their day, but quite cockeyed compared to the modern standard.
M15 for life

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 12 February 2012, 18:37:16 »
I agree that these would be nothing more than a footnote in PC history if they didn't just FEEL SO GOOD!

Your description is more appropriate for the XT keyboard with the even more ancient layout and even better feel.

Somebody will buy this item and enjoy it immensely, I predict.
From the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 :

The   Congress   shall have Power
To declare War,  grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To provide for calling forth the Militia  to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Offline DesktopJinx

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 12 February 2012, 20:58:51 »
Yeah, somebody bought it and will be updating their sig soon. *coughs*

Thanks for posting it here.
M15 for life

Offline huttala

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 01 March 2012, 20:49:21 »
Quote from: DesktopJinx;512664
Ahh, the ridiculous single-key backspace, the I-just-want-to-pound-it Enter, the goofy stair-stepped Alt, the where'd-they-put-it Caps Lock, the no-really-where'd-they-put-it Esc, the there's-no-Enter numeric keypad, the mile-long spacebar... I'm going to love putting that in the conference room for a day. And if they thought the M was loud...

Seriously, the Model Fs are like the Model Ts of the PC keyboard world. Ubiquitous in their day, but quite cockeyed compared to the modern standard.


I lol'd. :D

Offline DesktopJinx

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 02:26:05 »
You know what? I set aside my M15 just to test the F, and I ended up using it at home for a week. The keys feel fantastic. So crisp! And that sound... *swoons* I finally put it away after I had to do an extended session in an MMC snap-in and the lack of a right Ctrl and Alt really wrecked my flow, and I realized my wrists were starting to burn. The Fs really do feel different from the Ms. And I'd forgotten how HEAVY the spacebar was. Clearly made for the ladies in the secretarial pool who liked their Selectrics.

Now, if I can just find a blue-logo M15...
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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 02 March 2012, 07:10:45 »
Get a Model F 122-key terminal board, take it apart, move around some barrels and springs to make an almost-ANSI layout (with bonus keys left and top), get a Teensy and do Soarer's mod. The beast will weigh as much as your arm.

Then you will have something close to true "input nirvana"

PS - if you really get ambitious, cut off those insane "assembly tabs" and do a bolt mod on it. I have a wiki for it.
From the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 :

The   Congress   shall have Power
To declare War,  grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To provide for calling forth the Militia  to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Offline Wildcard

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #7 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 11:07:59 »
Quote from: fohat.digs;533025
Get a Model F 122-key terminal board, take it apart, move around some barrels and springs to make an almost-ANSI layout (with bonus keys left and top), get a Teensy and do Soarer's mod. The beast will weigh as much as your arm.

Then you will have something close to true "input nirvana"

PS - if you really get ambitious, cut off those insane "assembly tabs" and do a bolt mod on it. I have a wiki for it.

I need to clean out my F A/T some time. Typing on it right now and the spacebar needs some TLC.

Did you attempt the Model F 122-key facelift? How did it end up, any issues?

BTW, IBM really had it right on this board. The keys feel so great, and the sound not too bad.. Too bad it has a few layout issues. I constantly want to press the end or home keys.

EDIT: Considering the 5150/5160 was the birth of the IBM PC, I really can't blame them for the layout. It was groudbreaking to say the least.
« Last Edit: Sat, 03 March 2012, 11:17:07 by RiffRaff »

Offline EverythingIBM

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #8 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 12:20:15 »
Quote from: DesktopJinx;512664
Ahh, the ridiculous single-key backspace, the I-just-want-to-pound-it Enter, the goofy stair-stepped Alt, the where'd-they-put-it Caps Lock, the no-really-where'd-they-put-it Esc, the there's-no-Enter numeric keypad, the mile-long spacebar... I'm going to love putting that in the conference room for a day. And if they thought the M was loud...

Seriously, the Model Fs are like the Model Ts of the PC keyboard world. Ubiquitous in their day, but quite cockeyed compared to the modern standard.


You actually can easily mod it with a normal enter & backspace key... there were a few how-to guides kicking around here. No numpad? There's many USB numpads available. With (a decent amount of work), a model F USB numpad could be created too.

The best solution would be to get a terminal Model F and throw on USB, but the F AT is a more compact solution :)
Keyboards: '86 M, M5-2, M13, SSK, F AT, F XT

Online fohat.digs

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 19:17:37 »
If you have the desk space for something the size and weight of a gravel truck, get this monolithic beast

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 42602[/ATTACH]

Once you take it apart, you can move barrels around to achieve an ANSI-like layout, or anything else. Still waiting to see if I can get the top row of the Numpad to really work properly ......

I do not use most of the top row of Funtion keys, but they are waiting for SOMETHING, and since I ALWAYS use numpad, home cluster, and arrow keys, "NumLock" goes away to make room for a 2nd Escape "a-la" the F AT. The left bank of Function keys is nice and handy, too.

These big boards are not as tight as the XT boards, and, to a lesser extent, the AT boards, but a bolt mod is very easy (easier than a Model M), and you can use common parts from a hardware store.
From the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 :

The   Congress   shall have Power
To declare War,  grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To provide for calling forth the Militia  to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Offline dorkvader

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 21:23:14 »
Yes, I really want one of those massive terminal F's, but I can never seem to find one in my pricerange. I'd mod it to a better layout, USB (using a soarer, no doubt), bolt mod, etc.

'course I do like the more compact F AT. I'm collecting model numbers, and trawling parts resellers looking for a low quote, or a good deal.

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 03 March 2012, 22:10:10 »
Sucks when people start getting into something. (thanks to Soarer and the $20 Teensy!)

I got a really nice one last year at about $45 + shipping. Then it was dry for a while. Rawko offered a lot of 3 that were trashed, but I bought them (Rawko is 2 miles from my office) and I was able to build one and a half good ones (with some epoxy work and spare keys from elsewhere). Later I got another junker and salvaged some more parts.

My experience is that the 2 hardest components to come by are the inner rubber mat (if you have a 5/8" hole punch you can make a replacement that is probably an improvement) and the spacebar (the stabilizer wire is smaller in diameter than the Model M and the bar is different from the XT (it may be like the AT, but that model is even more valuable)). The case is made from a harder and more brittle plastic than the M and is often broken but repairable. One day I will buy a Model M-122 with the square badge on the right and see if the cases are better and/or interchangeable.

In my opinion, a "perfect" keyboard would be a (smaller-footprint, but 101 key) Model M with capacitive switches, so I fail to understand why someone would want to go through the hassle to make an M-122 work this way, instead of buying a standard M  ......

Having watched ebay for a while now, it looks like a "good" Model F 122-key terminal board shows up about once every month or 2 and sells in the $75-125 range + shipping. Junk/dead specimens are strangely absent altogether, Rawko might come through occasionally, but plan on buying more than one to build a single working model.

You should persevere, it really is worth it. I have seen things like Ripster showing you how to use your backyard grill and aluminum foil to fabricate lead weights for modern plastic Cherry keyboards - screw that. This is the real deal.
From the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 :

The   Congress   shall have Power
To declare War,  grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To provide for calling forth the Militia  to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Offline didjamatic

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 04 March 2012, 07:35:24 »
Just mod the AT model F and you're set.  I have owned many and still own quite a few varying from stock to lightly modded to heavily modded requiring AHK scripts.  One of the best keyboards ever made.
IBM F :: IBM M :: Northgate :: Cherry G80 :: Realforce :: DAS 4

Offline Icarium

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 05:36:25 »
Quote from: fohat.digs;512795
I agree that these would be nothing more than a footnote in PC history if they didn't just FEEL SO GOOD!
Your description is more appropriate for the XT keyboard with the even more ancient layout and even better feel.

So you're saying that you can feel a difference and M < F < XT? That sounds intriguing.

Quote from: fohat.digs;533025
Get a Model F 122-key terminal board, take it apart, move around some barrels and springs to make an almost-ANSI layout (with bonus keys left and top)
PS - if you really get ambitious, cut off those insane "assembly tabs" and do a bolt mod on it. I have a wiki for it.

What does it mean to move barrels around? Are there single switches in the F where there is one large piece of plastic in the M?
I would have looked at you articles but it seems there is no mapping from users to wiki articles anywhere.
I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

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Model F AT BIN @ $140 on ebay - looks clean
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 05 March 2012, 10:58:49 »
I am upset because I wrote a long and detailed reply, and somehow Geekhack timed out and caused the whole thing to evaporate. It has happened before.

The Model F family (XT, AT, and F-122) are built with a metal plate with holes that the (individual) barrels fit through. The barrels seat into a foam pad and are held in alignment by tabs of various types. The PCB is also sandwiched with a metal plate and there are slots and tabs that slide fit to hold it all together.

The capacitive switches are connected to the flat rectangular copper traces built into the PCB itself, and the hammers just drop down to make the capacitive environment they need to fire. Clearly, I am no physicist, someone else can explain the actual working much better than I can, but suffice to say that the "switches" themselves do not have "moving parts" and the springs/hammers above are modifying the environment surrounding the switches, rather than conducting electricity themselves. That is pretty esoteric and I may not be understanding it perfectly, either!

My wiki is concerned with the foam mat (which deteriorates badly into a horrible sticky grit) replacement, and the bolt-mod for a 122. Other information and mods are detailed elsewhere.


http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:24615&highlight=ibm+model+conversion


There are 2 links at the top, the first to Soarer's and the second to Kishy's. Use Soarer's instructions for the Teensy converter, but read Kishy's for other valuable information.

To take these beasts apart, you bend up the metal tabs, if need be, and slide the plates apart. A hammer is often required. Barrels and springs fall out loose. These can be moved around, and you can use the cylindrical inserts in barrels without springs for the longer key stabilizers. Obviously, you need keys in the proper size and shape for your new layout. (It is very helpful to have a 1989 or later Model M as a donor about now.) Generally, there should be a barrel in each holes, but there are not always holes to correspond with switches, in my experience. Odd, that.

To re-assemble, you have to hold everything together, compressing the rubber mat, while making a very tight sliding fit. If you have small and/or weak hands, forget it. You may well be doing it multiple times to get it right. This is very difficult, and is part of the reason I did the bolt-mod.

I think the prevailing opinion (mine, anyway) is that the XT has the "lightest and tightest" key feel. Factors influencing this are probably the smaller footprint (and corresponding inner plates), tighter curvature, heavier plate (I don't have an XT anymore and I cannot remember this for sure), metal case back, and different alignment pegs for the barrels. The mile-long spacebar and its under-carriage is something else, but that is another story.

The AT is very similar but lacks some of these specifications (the all-plastic case is brittle and devilishly hard to take apart at the front - be extremely careful there!). But it still feels pretty darn good, and the layout is considerably more modern.

The 122-key terminal board is much larger, and therefore probably flexes a lot more internally. There is a third row of slots and tabs down the middle, longitudinally, which probably helps, but I did the bolt-mod to tighten it up as much as possible. I wish there were more places to put bolts all around, but the barrel bases all butt together and do not leave any space in the main body of keys. And unlike a Model M bolt-mod, where I tighten the bolts only very gingerly, I screwed these boys down tight.

I sold my last XT almost a year ago, before I did the F-122 bolt mod, so I never compared them side-by-side, but it compares very well with the AT.

The huge size and weight are not a problem for me, and to have a near-ANSI layout with bonus keys top and left is a great thing. It makes me very reluctant to use anything else. Even a beautifully bolt-modded early Model M seems hollow and dull in comparison, and my full-size Leopold blue seems like a dinky plastic toy.

Finally, with internal padding, a rubber desk mat, and flossed springs, even makes it tolerable at home with the wife and kids in the other room!

Thank you Soarer and Teensy!

PS - best find I have seen lately:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390397297073&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123
« Last Edit: Mon, 05 March 2012, 17:18:18 by fohat.digs »
From the US Constitution, Article 1, Section 8 :

The   Congress   shall have Power
To declare War,  grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To provide for calling forth the Militia  to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;