Question about TKL vs 104 key layouts

[pyro_dragun]

Hi,

I'm just wondering, why do most people here seem to prefer the TKL versions of boards over the normal 104 key sized one?

Personally, I think the numpad is pretty useful, I use it to bind my buys in CS Source so I don't have to go through the menu everytime.

[dreamingftw]

Your hands are closer when you play games, so it feels a bit more ergo. Just feels more comfortable. If you use it for key bindings and it works for you, you should stick to it. I personally don't use the number pad at all.

[RColinTaylor]

I prefer tenkeyless's for a few reasons:

1. The size makes it easier for me to take with me everywhere I go.

2. When I play SC2, I don't like how far apart my hands have to be when using a fullsize.

3. It takes up less space which is important because most places I take mine I don't have enough space for a fullsize.

[Human]

4. It add some geek/nerd points to you.

[WhiteFireDragon]

5. The keypad is useless if you don't use it or don't do much data entry.

6. Based on looks alone, TKL looks more clean because of the compactness, but not too compact like mini-sized keyboards to the point that everything is crammed.

7. Costs about $10 cheaper

[RColinTaylor]

8. A lot of group buys for full key sets these days are limited to 87 keys and therefore it is harder to get custom FullSize sets of keys.

[Kamikaze K]

7. Costs about $10 cheaper

mmmm Not always... Have a look at the Topre boards at Elitebeyboards... the 87U's are priced higher.

[shogrran]

Its not that I don't use the keypad. I think the keypad is very useful even if I only seldom use it nowadays.

Initially I did not believe all the talk regarding the ergonomics of the 10-key-less. I did not believe that the hands being closer to the mouse would feel a lot better. I thought these guys were exaggerating until I actually went and bought a 10-key-less keyboard. I immediately felt the difference. From typing in the letter keys, my right hand doesn't need to "jump" far to get to the mouse. This really reduces a lot of strain specially in long hours of gaming and typing.

Trash-talking within games is also a breeze. When I game I do not really like to take my right hand off of the mouse so I am always ready to move. I touch type at about 80-86wpm and even with a full board I can still type and play. This has improved  a lot though from the time I got my 10-key-less. The quicker I get my right hand back to the mouse the better -  the conversation within game is also not that "choppy"

It is also a great space saver. Previously I used the Razer Blackwidow which is a big keyboard. The RBW is even bigger than regular full keyboards due to the extra macro keys and the form factor of the case itself. I am using a computer table and I barely have enough space for my mouse and mouse pad. Now that I have switched over to the Quickfire Rapid TKL, I have space for my mouse and pad and still have extra space for other things like my phone. Now I can even use my pen-tablet beside my keyboard.

Just my two cents.

[zirb]

You could try to use the 6 keys above the arrow-keys to bind your buy-scripts. Less travel distance garantueed

[PixelVandalism]

I wish I got a tenkeyless, they look better, and the number pad takes up so much space.

[shogrran]

You could try to use the 6 keys above the arrow-keys to bind your buy-scripts. Less travel distance garantueed

This can work. But since you have brought to the discussion the question of binding keys. Some games actually refuse to accept any third party software key bindings. I am also wondering how to get passed that.

[RColinTaylor]

This can work. But since you have brought to the discussion the question of binding keys. Some games actually refuse to accept any third party software key bindings. I am also wondering how to get passed that.

With Counterstrike directly you can bind multi-keys so that Alt+X = bind

[zirb]

http://www.counter-strike-source-tips.com/counter-strike-source-binding.html

You just need to bind Insert as 'Ins' for example

[shogrran]

http://www.counter-strike-source-tips.com/counter-strike-source-binding.html

You just need to bind Insert as 'Ins' for example

With counterstrike specifically binding works. But other games do not have these key binding features. Plus they also refuse to recognize third party software like autohotkey.... e.g. Dance Battle Audition and other rythm type games.

[IvanIvanovich]

I dislike both 104 and 87. I really don't understand why this layout is not king...
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 41182[/ATTACH]
It is almost as small as tenkeyless, and you loose nothing and have no redundant keys either. Best of both.
But when it comes down to it I always go for mini anyway. You can pry my Poker out of my cold dead hands.

[zirb]

With counterstrike specifically binding works. But other games do not have these key binding features. Plus they also refuse to recognize third party software like autohotkey.... e.g. Dance Battle Audition and other rythm type games.

Yeah that's a bummer. :/
I just wanted to tell OP that it's possible for counterstrike since he said he needs the 10key for scripts and stuff.

[nhwhaup]

When I joined this forum, I as well couldn't see the hoopla about the TKL versions but once I tried one, I got rid of all of my full sized keyboards.  Like all the others above mentioned - space, ergonomics, etc.  I have separate number pads both at work and at home that I can use when I'm crunching numbers in spreadsheets.  That way I have the best of both worlds.

[WhiteFireDragon]

I dislike both 104 and 87. I really don't understand why this layout is not king...
(Attachment Link) 41182[/ATTACH]
It is almost as small as tenkeyless, and you loose nothing and have no redundant keys either. Best of both.
But when it comes down to it I always go for mini anyway. You can pry my Poker out of my cold dead hands.

That's because that layout is more "modern". A similar analogy is the same reason why the QWERTY layout is still standard, even though Dvorak/Colmak is far more superior. QWERTY has been standard for over 100 years, but that doesn't mean it's the best.

[shogrran]

I dislike both 104 and 87. I really don't understand why this layout is not king...
(Attachment Link) 41182[/ATTACH]
It is almost as small as tenkeyless, and you loose nothing and have no redundant keys either. Best of both.
But when it comes down to it I always go for mini anyway. You can pry my Poker out of my cold dead hands.

Hmm I think you are right to say that with this layout you really do get the best of both worlds. I would hope that they still put the arrow keys in the bottom right portion of the numpad though just like how razer implemented it in their Marauder keyboard.

When it comes to redundant keys technically the number keys are still redundant. But then again, I won't mind this redundancy. I would also like a mechanical keyboard in this format... I really need the numpad for the other games that I play wherein I cannot bind keys.

Does anyone know a mechanical keyboard in this layout?

[pyro_dragun]

Wow, thanks for all of the responses guys, it's definitely helping me out. I think because of your recommendations, I'm going to buy a TKL type of keyboard. Now I just gotta figure what'll be the best brand for me, haha. Right now, I really have my heart set on a Filco, either in blues or brown, since I have been looking at those for a couple of years now, I just haven't bitten the bullet yet.

I dislike both 104 and 87. I really don't understand why this layout is not king...
(Attachment Link) 41182[/ATTACH]
It is almost as small as tenkeyless, and you loose nothing and have no redundant keys either. Best of both.
But when it comes down to it I always go for mini anyway. You can pry my Poker out of my cold dead hands.

Dang, I like that layout. Who sells keyboards with that? I'm guessing the poker is one?

[zirb]

Nope Poker is a mini-layout, no F-Row, arrows, 10key can be found there (available through shortcuts with the fn-key):

[Snarfangel]

Initially I did not believe all the talk regarding the ergonomics of the 10-key-less. I did not believe that the hands being closer to the mouse would feel a lot better. I thought these guys were exaggerating until I actually went and bought a 10-key-less keyboard. I immediately felt the difference. From typing in the letter keys, my right hand doesn't need to "jump" far to get to the mouse. This really reduces a lot of strain specially in long hours of gaming and typing.

It would be interesting to try a keyboard where the left and right hand letter keys are split apart, and the number pad is stuck in the center (kind of like a Maltron).

[FKSSR]

I dislike both 104 and 87. I really don't understand why this layout is not king...
(Attachment Link) 41182[/ATTACH]
It is almost as small as tenkeyless, and you loose nothing and have no redundant keys either. Best of both.

Where are the Delete, Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down keys?  There is no way I'd use something that didn't have the Delete key in it's "standard" place or Home & End where I could easily get to them.  I don't use mini-layouts like HHKB or Poker since they don't have the keys in a place where I'm used to and can easily adjust.

I like TKL because I don't use Numpad enough to warrant it's presence, but the arrow keys and Del, Home, End, Page Up, and Page Down keys are where I am used to them - I am so used to that layout that I move my hands to every key on a TKL keyboard without looking (and I have all blank keys).

The ergo comments about TKL are true.  I changed due to strain, and it completely worked.  Also, space saving at home is key.  I can have a larger mouse pad now.

If you use the numpad often, though, I would personally buy a TKL and a separate numpad.  You can then put the numpad to the right of your mouse and have the best of both worlds!

[fohat.digs]

I use the numpad, arrow keys, and home cluster all the time, partly because entering numbers and moving around spreadsheets is a significant portion of my work.

Dedicated keys are important to me, I hate having to toggle back and forth. I particularly like using the Enter key on the numpad and use it more than the regular one.

When I went shopping for a laptop, a numpad was a big plus for me.

A year or two ago, I saw a post somewhere about left-handed mousing. Although I am strongly right-handed, I LOVE the mouse on the left. Besides fixing the "far away right hand" problem, my dominant hand is also free to write, answer the phone, etc.

It was painful for a week, and awkward for a month, then I never looked back. Highly recommended.

PS - I am an old goat, you youngsters could switch much faster.

[seferphier]

TKL keyboard's selling value seems to be higher as well...

[pitashen]

Hi,

I'm just wondering, why do most people here seem to prefer the TKL versions of boards over the normal 104 key sized one?

Personally, I think the numpad is pretty useful, I use it to bind my buys in CS Source so I don't have to go through the menu everytime.

You already answered your own question pretty well. YOU may find it USEFUL, while OTHERS find it absolutely USELESS and is taking up the extra space where the mouse could have been.

Whether TKL is more ergonomical or not is up for debate. I thought It would be more ergonomical but I still find my shoulders in pain from time to time. So to make things simple, just ask urself if you absolutely need the num pad.

[IvanIvanovich]

I don't think there is any current mechanical in that layout I posted. There are some old ones similar to it, such as the Apple Keyboard II, and the Wyse WY30, etc. There was some discussion about it in the WASD subforum, but I don't think it's going to get made by them. If there is some project similar to Phantom for it is probably the only way it's going to happen. There is a similar one from one of the Korean keyboard sites that had no f keys row that I also quite liked. It was basically a Poker with a numpad.

[captain]

That looks like a winning layout to me. Blame economics. Blame the Chinese. Blame Canada!

[mrbonk]

I originally intended to buy a fullsize board, but after trying a Poker and then a Filco TKL board, I found the positioning of the mouse to be much better.  I realised that I had been picking the mouse up to move it away from the edge of the keyboard all the time with the fullsize board.  No more with the TKL Majestouch2 I just purchased  For the very small amount of usage that my numpad was put to, I certainly won't miss it.

[captain]

This year Filco will come out with a version of this, utilizing a new switch that Cherry will make: an MXpurple that precisely mimics the buckling spring!  ;-)  With predictions like this, my predicting average is more perfect than ripster's!  :-P

[noGG]

Where have you been for the past, I don't know, 15 years? The trend in any electronics has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS been "Smaller is better".

Seriously though, if you're like me and you a) keep your computer on your desk while using an absurdly large mousepad b) need room for a plate of food and a bottle of liquor then you'll understand the appeal. Also, with my body frame, when I use an 87-key I look like a king sitting on a large throne whereas with a 104-key the slight stretching of my arms kills that image. That's always a plus.

[Human]

I dislike both 104 and 87. I really don't understand why this layout is not king...
(Attachment Link) 41182[/ATTACH]
It is almost as small as tenkeyless, and you loose nothing and have no redundant keys either. Best of both.
But when it comes down to it I always go for mini anyway. You can pry my Poker out of my cold dead hands.

Some Chinese(from China) had realised the need of such layout and are already working on it. Though, I don't really like the layout on the numpad, instead I prefer the original layout(num-lock off) on the numpad of normal 104 keys(where 2467=arrows, 7193=home,end,pageup,pagedown and 0.=ins and del). I got used to such layout since I using my Dell laptop(with numpad and tiny default arrow keys). I normally num-lock off to use the numpad as arrows and num-lock on only when I am typing numbers.

http://www.waishehome.cn/thread-37928-1-1.html

[IvanIvanovich]

Hey perfect... I think that is more or less what the consensus was in the discussion about this layout in the wasd subforum. I hope they succeed, and will be keeping an eye out for it.

[mt490]

Though, I don't really like the layout on the numpad, instead I prefer the original layout(num-lock off) on the numpad of normal 104 keys(where 2467=arrows, 7193=home,end,pageup,pagedown and 0.=ins and del).

Same here, I'd prefer it if the arrows and home-end etc. keys were closer around the arrows like the old layout. So damned good having those buttons there when navigating documents, code and text.

[WhiteFireDragon]

Also, with my body frame, when I use an 87-key I look like a king sitting on a large throne whereas with a 104-key the slight stretching of my arms kills that image. That's always a plus.

:pound:

[patrickgeekhack]

The major benefit of the TKL layout is having the mouse closer. However, I use the numpad so much both at work and at home, that I don't think I will be able to live without it. Some people can, but not me. I try to compensate by using keyboard shortcuts as much as possible.

Does a TKL keyboard with complicated blue or white clicky ALPS exist?