Author Topic: Understanding the Cherries  (Read 2335 times)

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Offline iMagUdspEllr

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Understanding the Cherries
« on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 11:06:28 »
I just found your forum yesterday and I found it very informative. I understand the differences between the Cherry MX switches on keyboards. However, I am having trouble deciding which one. I'm sure this gets asked a lot but, I have questions that are unique (hopefully).

I don't like the cherry mx blues because it seems that you have to back off the key further than the other cherries in order to get the key to reset and allow it to be actuated again. I could be wrong, though (that is why I'm asking =) ). Plus, I'm not a fan of the "click".

I don't really understand the point of blacks or reds because... what separates them from regular rubber dome keys? They make no click and they have no tactile feedback either. So, what is to indicate to you that the key has been depressed far enough aside from bottoming out the key? Do they still have a semi-tactile feedback compared to rubber domes? Based upon their design it doesn't appear that way (quick caveat: I have only tried the blues). I see the advantage of the blacks and especially the reds (just because the reds are lighter) because there is no tactile bump, there is no resistance there, so you can actuate the keys very rapidly (because you don't have to go over the bump over and over). But, I feel that because the bump is not there, you can never be sure if you actuated the key far enough (aside from looking at the screen and making sure the character was typed). I guess you could build muscle memory for it, and you wouldn't have to rely on the bump to let you know the key has been depressed far enough. But, I feel that you would probably still end up over-shooting the actuation point (even if it is by a small amount). I'm just guessing at all this. Please, let me know if I'm mistaken.

I'm leaning towards the browns because they don't click, they have a tactile indication that the key has been depressed far enough without bottoming out. And, because the bump is attached to the switch (unlike the blue) you can rapidly spam that character without bottoming out or coming completely off the key (the bump tells you when you have gone down/up far enough).

It appears to me that the browns are the second best for speed (bump slows you down) and best for accuracy (bump tells you exactly when you have actuated the key far enough), while the reds would be best for speed (no bump and light actuation force) and second best for accuracy (no bump to tell you when you have pressed the key far enough).

In contrast, I have also read that some people like the clears better than the browns because they have a more noticeable bump (I just figure that would slow you down and the brown would be enough). I have also heard that the extra resistance near the bottom of the reds prevents bottoming out and is basically a more "frictionless" brown.

Please, let me know what you think.

This is all speculation/hearsay but I really want to know the opinions of people that are far more knowledgeable than me.

Offline davkol

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« Reply #1 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 11:56:16 »
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« Last Edit: Mon, 10 December 2018, 13:39:36 by davkol »

Offline Horgath

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 13:59:02 »
Hi there and welcome :)

i think you should get a keyboard with mx browns if you cant try out all switches before..it seems like you´ve already made your decision so...try it^^

Offline Rumudiez

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 16:30:55 »
Typical rubber dome keyboards are tactile, hence the (mushy) "pop" when keys are pressed. Blacks and reds are perfectly linear, however, and do not even have that. The only assurance you have registered a key stroke is completely bottoming out, although over time with board you'll get better at not bottoming out every time.

The only factor in the switches that even could slow down or speed up your typing is in my opinion weight. For me, I type incredibly slowly on blacks because of their high actuation force, but on all the others I do not notice a difference (only haven't tried clears before).

In blues versus browns, that's entirely just preference in an even smaller scale than which switch to get in the first place. Basically just go for browns if you haven't had a mechanical keyboard before and aren't certain about noise levels--most people tend to shy away from our wonderful world at the first sounds of my blues, and it isn't until they try them that they understand it's a happy sound.

Welcome to Geekhack and goodluck finding your soul-board!
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Offline spikeh

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 18:29:27 »
Perhaps there should be an obligation to apologise for each new user's wallet following a welcoming message.

Welcome to GH!
Sorry for your wallet!

Personal anecdote with browns: coming off of rubber domes you will bottom out, zooming past the tactile bump at 120mph, every time. You will either adjut and fall in love with it after a difficult honeymoon, or you will move on to having a preference for heavier switches. I am the former and am very satisifed with browns, while others seek the holy grail that is the clears.

During the adjustment period to browns where I constantly bottomed out, I had doubts as to whether I should've chosen linear blacks or reds instead. Having tried the blacks I can safely say that, personally, I do not like linear switches for reasons Rumudiez mentioned; there is no feeling of "I hit the switch!". I have no doubt that others can type at a fast pace with linear switches though, and as always YMMV.

As for typing speed, I think practice and profiency is far more important than switch type. I typed at over 110 wpm on rubber domes, and I continue to do so on mechanical boards.

As suggested by Horgath, get a board with browns. You already decided that you do not like the "click" sound or the actuation point of blues; the browns will help you decide if your typing style finds a tactile point useful and if you like fairly light switches. From there you can go to other Cherry flavours or abandon Cherry altogether if you want even lighter switches (e.g. Topre).
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Offline hazeluff

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 18:36:19 »
Welcome to GeekHack, "Poppin' Cherries since '00".

Brown is a good starting point. And your reasoning to lead you there is fair.

I have two brown boards, and I love them to bits. But I'm still feeling around for what I like. I dont' think the bumps really slow down the typing, they don't increase the force required by that much.

Anyway enjoy w/e you do end up picking.
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Offline iMagUdspEllr

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 19:59:32 »
I really appreciate the warm welcome and fast, informative responses. I'm going to get a board with brown cherries first. My second board will have to be a red, though. My interest in the reds has been rekindled because I find it intriguing that you are able to learn the muscle memory of actuating the switch and not bottoming out (super-smooth button pressing). We will see =)

Thanks!

Offline wongster

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 20:14:48 »
Welcome!

Everyone has given good responses. Browns are definitely a good starter board. Your description of reds is spot on, just smooth browns. I was pretty skeptical of linear switches and thought reds were probably all hype because of their relative rarity last year, but I picked one up to try, and now reds are my favorite switch. Definitely try out different switches if you can, as that is the only way to determine what switches you like and don't like.

One other piece of advice I would give is to give yourself time when you make the transition into mechanical keyboards (and perhaps eventually new switches). New peripherals take time to get used to, and it may feel strange or not as nice as you had imagined. Give yourself more than an hour's time of usage, you may discover what you do/don't like about certain keyboards.

Good luck :)
CM Storm Cherry MX Red Tenkeyless - Black Engraved PBT, SC2, Novelty, RGBY, Red Esc Doubleshots
Leopold Cherry MX Brown Tenkeyless - Stock
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Offline pitashen

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« Reply #8 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 20:23:07 »
i started with brown. now i am also typing on black. both winners
\\\\ DSI Mac Modular Keyboard (Brown) w/ Leo  Blank Keycaps //
\\\\ Leopold 87keys Keyboard (Brown) w/ Black CherryCorp + SP DoubleShots //
\\\\ Filco Majestouch 2 NINJA (Black) w/ White CherryCorp + SP DoublsShots //

Offline alaricljs

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 21:00:42 »
Another question to ask might be... 'why not bottom out?'  I use browns and I bottom out and I like it that way.  I type at 105wpm and since I'm happy with that speed there's nothing about my technique that I am looking to change.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline iMagUdspEllr

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 21:13:09 »
Quote from: alaricljs;528780
Another question to ask might be... 'why not bottom out?'  I use browns and I bottom out and I like it that way.  I type at 105wpm and since I'm happy with that speed there's nothing about my technique that I am looking to change.

Well. I'm not a pro typist by any means (67 wpm... sorry, I am a n00b), but If you are bottoming out then your fingers are moving further than required to activate the key. Longer distance traveled = slower typing (or that is what I think... correct me if I'm wrong).

Also, I have a follow-up question. Does anyone have experience with these "soft landing pads"? After I saw these I thought that I could get a cherry mx red switch keyboard and put these in it. I think the added resistance towards the bottom of the key would give me a different tactile feedback than the browns but with similar results (when I begin to feel the pad I know that I have depressed the key far enough). Is my reasoning solid? Or do these pads offer such little resistance that they are merely sound dampeners for when I inevitably bottom out during my "transition period"? lol

Would these "firm landing pads" work better for what I have in mind?

Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #11 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 21:21:49 »
Quote from: iMagUdspEllr;528799
Longer distance traveled = slower typing (or that is what I think... correct me if I'm wrong).

Well, in the perfect world where muscle reaction is instantaneous perhaps.  However in the real world I'd be amazed to find a fast typist that doesn't bottom out.  At these speeds your finger is going to close that tiny 2mm distance from activation to bottom no matter what you do.  Maybe a kid in the prime of his health and taking keyboarding as seriously as olympic gymnastics, but what is that worth?

The most common thing I hear on GH when talking about not bottoming out is that they have to slow down and be methodical.  On the other hand I could switch to clears (I have a board) and they force me to not bottom out due to the rising resistance after the activation/tactility.  I type no faster on clear than on browns and I cannot type as long since the higher spring tension wears me out.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline iMagUdspEllr

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 21:35:39 »
Quote from: alaricljs;528811
Well, in the perfect world where muscle reaction is instantaneous perhaps.  However in the real world I'd be amazed to find a fast typist that doesn't bottom out.  At these speeds your finger is going to close that tiny 2mm distance from activation to bottom no matter what you do.  Maybe a kid in the prime of his health and taking keyboarding as seriously as olympic gymnastics, but what is that worth?

The most common thing I hear on GH when talking about not bottoming out is that they have to slow down and be methodical.  On the other hand I could switch to clears (I have a board) and they force me to not bottom out due to the rising resistance after the activation/tactility.  I type no faster on clear than on browns and I cannot type as long since the higher spring tension wears me out.

Good to know! Aww man, why did you have to reply? I thought I had my mind made up to get browns. Now, I may as well get some reds and put those "landing pads" I was talking about in my last post under the keys. I assume that would make for a quieter keyboard and a different kind of tactile feedback.

The only reason why I liked the browns was because I thought it would teach me to not bottom out, but just release after I go over the bump instead.

I guess I'm getting some reds first then!

Offline alaricljs

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« Reply #13 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 21:38:56 »
Depending on your location you might be able to find someone here that would be willing to let you handle a few boards.
Filco w/ Imsto thick PBT
Ducky 1087XM PCB+Plate, w/ Matias "Quiet Click" spring-swapped w/ XM Greens

Offline Rumudiez

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« Reply #14 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 22:10:08 »
Landing pads do not provide tactile feedback, so don't think that MX Reds with "Firm Landing Pads" with feel like MX Browns by any means. They are merely to soften impact and reduce noise when bottoming out.
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Offline iMagUdspEllr

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« Reply #15 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 22:26:11 »
Gotcha, Rumudiez. If alaricljs is right, I will still bottom out with the brown when I'm trying to type quickly. So that kinda defeats the reason why I wanted to get the browns. I wanted to train myself to not bottom out. But, if even the more skilled typists around find that they have to slow down in order to not bottom out, then there is no point for me to get the browns. Unless someone else has rebuttals for that?

Offline spikeh

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 27 February 2012, 22:52:51 »
Once I got used to browns with muscle memory, practice and all that, I do not have to consciously "slow down" in order to not bottom out. I'm ~130wpm on browns. No matter what other people say or do regarding bottoming out, it depends on your style of typing, preference, practice, &c. You may well find that you type as fast as you do bottoming out like alaricljs, in which case the tactile feedback may be redundant.
Filco Majestouch 105 | IBM Model M SSK | Filco Majestouch 2 87

Offline Horgath

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Understanding the Cherries
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 28 February 2012, 00:19:16 »
Coming from a Logitech G19 i used to bottom out almost every key on my browns...but after one week(!!)...i want (need!) browns at work too because i have to press the f...ing key all the way down on an old crappy dell rubberdome keyboard..and sometimes i even need to press the damn key a second time because the first one wasn´t recognised :(