What the heck has happened to Linux?

[quickcrx702]

I agree, I hate the direction Ubuntu has gone, but I still recommend it to all of my Linux n00b friends.  Actually, KDE and Gnome have really gone downhill for me as well... they just seem to be Windows Vista-ing the linux desktop environment.  It just feels bloated and gross.  My favorite Linux desktops are XFCE, E17, and Fluxbox, depending on the machine.  Unfortunately after more than a decade as a loyal Linux fan, I gave up on desktop Linux about a year ago, and use it exclusively for servers now.  There are just too many tools specific to my industry that do not run on Linux, and if I'm going to run a Windows VM to run them, I might as well just run Windows.

[bpiphany]

I was sort of getting used to unity... But then I discovered that there apparently is something wrong with the Intel video driver in GTK3 (or something, I am not that Linux savvy...). It only presented itself in KiCAD, but that was a real turnoff =P So I reverted back to Ubuntu 10.10, and it still works just fine. I hope they come up with something better for the 12.04 LTS though.

[yttrium]

Why not just

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sudo apt-get install gnome-panelor

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sudo apt-get install gnome-shellor even try installing MATE?

[rknize]

I run Windows...inside of VirtualBox on Linux.    It's amazing how often I need to "reboot" Windows due to upgrades or general flaxiness.  I pretty much just use it for Quicken and a couple of other tools.  For everything else I use Open Source.  I also have CrossOver Linux, but I almost never use it anymore (Open/LibreOffice has come a long way).

That said, I do have a gaming rig, but I only turn it on when I want to play.  That usually requires a 2nd reboot because of some MS hotfix.  :mad2:

CrossOver does support Steam, which is fun when I just want to play a bit of Portal or another older game.  My Linux box has a fairly old nVidia card (7900 or something).

[quickcrx702]

Friends don't let friends do Linux.
(Attachment Link) 42760[/ATTACH]

LOL.  Even though I don't really do desktop support very much any more, I still give free support to my friends when they get viruses.  Unfortunately, they keep looking at porn and doing online gambling, which continuously infect their PCs, and I always have to remove the viruses.  Funny thing is all my friends have girlfriends, and we live in Vegas... so WTF.  I even tried setting their desktop background to tubgirl and lemon party via local group policy(gpedit.msc) so that it cannot be changed before I return their PCs, and that didn't stop them from doing what they do.  So now, they all have a dedicated linux partition to use exclusively for doing stupid crap.

[enoy21]

Honestly I've been using Debian exclusively for a while now.  I've always stuck with Gnome but was using XFCE on an older system for a while.

I've used Open Suse , Suse Enterprise Desktop by Novell, Linux Mint and dabble in Ubuntu.  

When I installed Ubuntu with Unity on my fiance's laptop I hated it.... Still do.   Then I installed Debian Gnome and realize  WTF... It's a GNOME issue....
but....
Debian's Gnome seems much better to me than Unity.  I don't know if it's that I've gotten accustomed to it or what but it seems better navigated.
The one thing I miss the hell out of and always loved about Linux is the Rightclick>Terminal.
But with Gnome 3.1 it's super easy to modify that shortcut bar on the left to add it there.  I was also VERY surprised to see that by installing the base system then only installing the Gnome-core package that it only uses about 160mb of memory at the desktop level.  Install Chrome and Libre office and it gives me pretty much everything I need in a desktop for generic webbrowsing and document reading.

I haven't installed Gimp yet and don't do alot of movie watching with the system but I'm thoroughly enjoying the new Gnome now. (Using Debian SID)

In the past I too used Virtual box for Windows "must have" applications but for the most part I found that it's resource splitting made it miserable. Of course I was running on 512mb at the time.  The biggest issue I've had with Debian of late is that Wine is not available in Wheezy as there have some core compatibility issues with it.  (or did 6 months ago)

[enoy21]

Oh yeah.... I recommend using aptitude instead of apt-get. it seems to do a much better job with dependencies for me.

[rknize]

I have 16GB in my main machine for this reason.  

[glossywhite]

It saddens me that buntu is considered the default "norm" in Linux, when that is far from the truth. Ubuntu is an autocracy, their release cycles are far too frequent to ever be considered stable... and "Unity"? Well, a more apt title would be "Dischord". It seems that the majority of comments in this threads are Ubuntu-centric: why? Marketing and mass FUD power. They tell you what they're developing, and whether or not the majority vote for it, TOUGH - they now dictate it as the (their) new "standard" :lol:

Personally, I have just abandoned Ubuntu as the broken mess that it is, after 5+ years of patiently using it, I'd had enough. Oh, and don't say anything even slightly controversial on their forums - not even a slightly tongue in cheek comment about another company or product, as they'll hurl supercillious, passive abuse at you (admin, that is) and slam the lid on the thread immediately. It's called "mind control", and Canonical know all about it!

Before you're put off Linux for life, what I installed was "Fedora 16 x86_64" ... and it's super stable, super easy. I can't get any serious work done in Windows, not that I "hate" it, bash it or any such nonsense; Windows 7 is pretty nice tbh, but I am a command line/bash addict. Try this (download the live CD):

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 43082[/ATTACH]


Download it:

http://mirrors.fedoraproject.org/publiclist/

[yttrium]

glossy, note that not many in this thread actually like Ubuntu - it was mentioned most because it's such a controversial distro. "What the heck happened to Linux"... what the heck happened to Ubuntu?

10.04LTS is the last release I can actually recommend.

[alaricljs]

I've been a Linux user since .99 alphas back around `94.  I've been a pro Linux admin since ~`99.  I've never once used Ubuntu nor needed to support it.  I've occasionally used Gnome on a live-CD for recovery tools, I don't think I've ever used KDE...  Otherwise I might have something to add to the conversation.  

Linux is not Ubuntu or Gnome or KDE.  Too many people choose not to take advantage or don't even realize one simple fact:  Linux is what YOU make of it.  Don't like what you've got?  Change it.

[glossywhite]

I've been a Linux user since .99 alphas back around `94.  I've been a pro Linux admin since ~`99.  I've never once used Ubuntu nor needed to support it.  I've occasionally used Gnome on a live-CD for recovery tools, I don't think I've ever used KDE...  Otherwise I might have something to add to the conversation.  

Linux is not Ubuntu or Gnome or KDE.  Too many people choose not to take advantage or don't even realize one simple fact:  Linux is what YOU make of it.  Don't like what you've got?  Change it.

Just when I thought you were getting so so close to the fact... you swerved and missed it! "Linux" is the kernel, nothing more.

[rknize]

Yes, I decided not to make a fine point about the OP's use of the word "Linux".  Linux is just the kernel.  GNU makes the vast majority of the foundation libraries and tools upon which the rest of your system is built.  Linux just happens to be the most popular kernel upon which GNU can run (and the best, IMO .  It is a common misnomer, but everyone still knows what you mean.

Ubuntu is/was a nice polishing-up of the Debian desktop.  Back then, there was no "testing".  You either ran stable or sid.  Since then, testing has become a nice middle ground and the package maintainers for the desktop-related parts do a pretty good job of keeping everything working now.  Ubuntu is going their own way now and that is their perogative.  They don't want to miss the PC <-> tablet/smartphone convergence boat.  Microsoft is realizing the same thing (meet Windows .

The great thing about GNU/Linux is that you can run whatever you want.  You have 100% freedom.  You can get the source code and change it to your liking, if you wish.  As far as Fedora vs Ubuntu vs SuSE vs LFS vs Etc, that is basically a religious topic, just like GNOME vs KDE vs Xcfe vs twm vs etc.  

[alaricljs]

Thing is that it's not GNU/Linux either... it's GNU/and a ton of other ****/Linux.

That's why non-zealots just call it Linux.   Suck it up.

[rknize]

Meh, not really.  The ton of other **** is built on GNU, for the most part.  libc and friends, not to mention pretty much *everything* is built with gcc!

[alaricljs]

But who cares?  Why SHOULD they care?

It's a tool, it does what I want it to.  While I appreciate open-source for the openness, I cannot stand the 'religiousity' of it.  Keep your religion to yourself.

[rknize]

Umm...OK.  Well I guess I misunderstood your point.  Yes, you can worship whom you please. :pray:

[sth]

But who cares?  Why SHOULD they care?

It's a tool, it does what I want it to.  While I appreciate open-source for the openness, I cannot stand the 'religiousity' of it.  Keep your religion to yourself.

AMEN





duh, pun intended

[alaricljs]

Umm...OK.  Well I guess I misunderstood your point.  Yes, you can worship whom you please. :pray:

I use the GNU toolchain almost exclusively on Solaris.  You think it should be called GNU/Solaris in that case?

When I finish building my workbench I'm not going to call it my Makita workbench because that's what brand tool I built it with.  I'm not gonna call it my Delta workbench because I built it to hold my Delta drill press.  My workbench wouldn't exist if it weren't for the fact of my having those tools tho.

RMS's choice to turn certain ideas into a belief system doesn't mean he's right.  Open source is a great idea and helps me get the job done and lets me fix things that are broken when I could have never built the thing I just fixed to begin with.  GNU has a lovely set of tools and yes Linux wouldn't be the same thing if GNU didn't grow up together with it.  

When it all comes down to it I don't care WHAT you *call* it... except that when there's a name that's shorter than all the rest that's what I'm gonna call it.  It's no different than Microsoft Windows Server 2008 Enterprise... That's the first time I ever typed that out, it's Win2k8Ent where I come from, and you'll notice that the 'Microsoft' part gets dropped completely.  

People call it Linux because it's easier, and then the zealots come and wank quixotic about GNU.  It's tiresome and useless and all it does is irritate the non-believers and the rest are just the choir and they already pray the same line.

[sth]

The simplest answer is obviously to just switch to OpenBSD.

[rknize]

Yes, I get it.  You are very sensitive about semantics and don't like it when other people talk about them.  That is fine.  No need to get upset.  I wasn't looking for a fight.  I was just playing devil's advocate to your rant.

As to the "GNU/Linux" term, I think RMS was feeling a little left out when he ranted continually about that.  Can't say I blame the poor guy.  He is kind of passionate to a fault.    

The fact is that you have to call it something and, like you implied, a lot of people just say "Linux".  "Linux" is just weird that way if you think about it.  Take the OpenBSD example above.  OpenBSD is not just a kernel.  It's a working system that includes a kernel and the rest of the tools you need to make use of it.  The same is true with SunOS/Solaris.  Yes, you can always add stuff on top.  "Linux" is, technically, just a kernel.  By itself it's kind of useless.  I think that is why people get hung-up on calling something "Linux".  Just look at how many distos there are for "linux".  You don't find that with other kernels.  It's just different.

[glossywhite]

The simplest answer is obviously to just switch to OpenBSD.

:lol:

Gnome 3 is still "experimental" on *BSD distros... LOL. Ever wonder why you hear about Linux ALL the time, and *BSD hardly ever?

Multiply your headaches one thousand fold; why not! ^_^

[alaricljs]

The fact is that you have to call it something and, like you implied, a lot of people just say "Linux".  "Linux" is just weird that way if you think about it.  "Linux" is, technically, just a kernel.  By itself it's kind of useless.  I think that is why people get hung-up on calling something "Linux".  Just look at how many distos there are for "linux".  You don't find that with other kernels.  It's just different.

That's just it tho... When talking about a complete install, they say 'Linux' or whatever distro they're using.  Talk about the kernel and it's the 'Linux kernel'  Why?  Because the toolchain isn't in your face, it does it's job and that's all.  There is only 1 toolchain, no choice there if you're using Linux.  That's why it doesn't matter to most people.  The only choice is the distro, the WM or Gui Env.  When you don't have a choice (and it isn't an issue) the item in question gets forgotten.

Debian is about the only root distro (root as in the base of the tree) that talks about GNU/Linux and they should because they do crazy **** like GNU/NetBSD and GNU/kFreeBSD and GNU/Hurd.   In that context it makes sense.

[sth]

:lol:

Gnome 3 is still "experimental" on *BSD distros... LOL. Ever wonder why you hear about Linux ALL the time, and *BSD hardly ever?

Multiply your headaches one thousand fold; why not! ^_^

GNOME 3 is GNU, and I hate it so it doesn't matter even a little bit.

Also, you don't hear about BSD because it just sits there and works, and the dev/user communities don't argue about stupid **** like whether or not they should make sure they include everybody when naming their releases.

[alaricljs]

*BSD ... Multiply your headaches one thousand fold

You've got that backwards... If it were merely a matter of 'I need this standard service and awesome stability' then *BSD is where it's at.  Truth is, stability is taking a back seat to agility and modern features.  The headaches come from trying to mix *BSD's ideals and reality with requirements that directly go against them.

*BSD is no headache if you don't try to make it do something it was never meant to do.  Right tool for the job, after all.

[rknize]

The main reason for a company to choose the BSD system to build something on is because of the license.  No pesky GPL to ruin your fun.  That is why Apple chose it.  It is known for server stability, though, especially certain variants.  I have played with it from time to time, but the sys admin differences from Debian are not worth the headache for me.  Same is true for RedHat (though they have gotten much better at conforming to LSB than the last time I used them).

Yeah Debian sees themselves from outside the Linux bubble.  They are one of the few distros that actively trying to build a system using different kernels.  Maybe that is why I see it differently too.    I've been using Debian ever since the "Potato" release.  At the time I was searching for something better than SuSE, which was no longer free.

[alaricljs]

I jumped ship off Debian because using PostgreSQL was too much trouble otherwise, sitting on sid just to get closer to recent versions was irritating as well.  Since I like to bleed, I'm on Gentoo now.  Of course, not liking Gnome or KDE means being able to control dependencies is nice also.  The off-standard parts of Gentoo are less painful than RH imho.

[sth]

I jumped ship off Debian because using PostgreSQL was too much trouble otherwise, sitting on sid just to get closer to recent versions was irritating as well.  Since I like to bleed, I'm on Gentoo now.  Of course, not liking Gnome or KDE means being able to control dependencies is nice also.  The off-standard parts of Gentoo are less painful than RH imho.

What about MariaDB? Oracle sucks though. Debian testing is pretty damn close to bleeding; it's about as bleeding as Arch is with more testers to make sure things work.

[alaricljs]

What about MariaDB? Oracle sucks though. Debian testing is pretty damn close to bleeding; it's about as bleeding as Arch is with more testers to make sure things work.

First I've ever heard of MariaDB, of course it didn't exist when I switched off Debian, and the projects I use that needed pgsql probably still don't support MySQL.  I cannot comment on Oracle.  Debian testing may be like that NOW...

[sth]

First I've ever heard of MariaDB, of course it didn't exist when I switched off Debian, and the projects I use that needed pgsql probably still don't support MySQL.  I cannot comment on Oracle.  Debian testing may be like that NOW...

MariaDB is basically what LibreOffice is to OpenOffice (not exactly; I don't think it's a fork) but it's basically the f/oss community's response to Oracle being ****s about MySQL licensing after the buyout.

And duh, I'm not talking about Linux 5-10 years ago. It doesn't really matter what it was like then; if you compare, Gentoo used to be awesome because of the performance increases you got from self-compilation, but these days it's just a pain in the ass with minimal performance gains.


btw I hope you don't take my posts personally...

[alaricljs]

btw I hope you don't take my posts personally...

Generally, if I don't quote you I mean the proverbial 'you', besides this is the internet if I took anything personal here I'd have already jumped off my roof.  I'll argue generalities, but the only thing I rant against is fanaticism where 'you should...' comes into play.  'You' can be a fanatic and go on about how you love whatever it is you want and why, don't even think of telling me I should love it for your reasons or that I should do anything for your reasons.

I did look it up (MariaDB), I don't have blinders on  Besides once you've worn nicely into a groove it takes a lot to throw you out of it.  Hence why I've been sitting in Gentoo, I didn't move into it for performance I did it because I like the ultimate control over dependencies.  Maybe Arch does what I want (buddy of mine has vaguely described that it does), but Gentoo has been doing what I ask without issue this entire time.  If I run into a wall again, it'll be time to look at different distros again.

[sth]

Generally, if I don't quote you I mean the proverbial 'you', besides this is the internet if I took anything personal here I'd have already jumped off my roof.  I'll argue generalities, but the only thing I rant against is fanaticism where 'you should...' comes into play.  'You' can be a fanatic and go on about how you love whatever it is you want and why, don't even think of telling me I should love it for your reasons or that I should do anything for your reasons.

I did look it up (MariaDB), I don't have blinders on  Besides once you've worn nicely into a groove it takes a lot to throw you out of it.  Hence why I've been sitting in Gentoo, I didn't move into it for performance I did it because I like the ultimate control over dependencies.  Maybe Arch does what I want (buddy of mine has vaguely described that it does), but Gentoo has been doing what I ask without issue this entire time.  If I run into a wall again, it'll be time to look at different distros again.

Word. I only mentioned that cause sometimes I try to have rational discussions and end up sounding like a ****. Not my intent. Glad you found your place with Gentoo; I honestly love to extol Debian but I don't use it that often these days...

[rknize]

Yeah, I gave Gentoo a whirl not long after they started making noise on Slashdot.  This was after trying LFS and realizing that while fun, was not sustainable.  It wasn't long before my system got trashed by some portage snafu (portage broke Perl which broke portage, IIRC).  Anyway, it was very early in Gentoo's life.  I'm sure they have improved a lot.

I remember having issues finding up to date PostgreSQL packages on Debian too.  I can't remember where, but it wasn't hard to find outside packages that worked.  This was just my server at home, so I don't know how "production ready" it was.

Ah "Linux" war stories.  I remember downloading my first copy of RedHat on a large multitude of floppies and waiting many hours for a kernel build to complete on my 386.  

[rknize]

Some bible thumpers knocked on my door right just a few minutes ago.

Although both incredibly cute I told them I wasn't interested.

So Mormon's, then.

[sth]

Could be Jehovah's too. Pleasant dispositions aside, they're all a bunch of crazy ****s anyway.

[alaricljs]

Hmmm... Only thing we get around here are ugly dude Jehovah's...

Slackware on 50+ floppies is where I started.  Might have been fewer when I started but I only remember how high the number went.  I did start getting ballsie on the later installs tho.  5 floppies and 3 computers, 2 downloading/overwriting floppies and the other one installing.  Was nice that the uni lab let me bring my PC in to do that.

[alaricljs]

Aren't Jehovahs normally black?

I've only seen 1... he had to have a white partner to wander around this neighborhood.  All the properties are large enough that it's legal to fire a weapon on your own property.  Seems to scare some people.

[sth]

I've only seen 1... he had to have a white partner to wander around this neighborhood.  All the properties are large enough that it's legal to fire a weapon on your own property.  Seems to scare some people.

You should probably move somewhere that isn't dominated by racists.

[rknize]

The only way I could get the floppies was from my job as an Intern.  It was a pretty boring job, so I had plenty of free time to download floppy images and print out lots of how-tos.  No Internet access at home at the time.  I had a hard time trying to find someone at my University that knew what email even was.  I eventually found someone in the CS dept how could give me a UNIX account.  I was an EE...we still used a VAX (no, I'm not that old...just a highly under-funded university).

I see Mormons every day, but that's because they live next door.

[alaricljs]

You should probably move somewhere that isn't dominated by racists.

That's just it... not a racist neighborhood at all.  None of the visiting door-2-door knockers know this but it's hard to mistake the noise of gunfire.  Of course they also don't know that it's a firing range just up the road.  There's more Asian than black in the mix here though.

[sth]

That's just it... not a racist neighborhood at all.  None of the visiting door-2-door knockers know this but it's hard to mistake the noise of gunfire.  Of course they also don't know that it's a firing range just up the road.  There's more Asian than black in the mix here though.

Then why do black JWs feel like they need a white JW to go with them into your neighborhood?

[rknize]

Which is why no one uses Cobol, I guess.

[alaricljs]

Then why do black JWs feel like they need a white JW to go with them into your neighborhood?

Perhaps that gunfire I mentioned?  Or maybe they don't realize that they're getting screamed at just because they're on private property and not for any other reason?

WTF do I know about why I've never seen a non-resident black person walking without a non-resident white escort?

[sth]

Perhaps that gunfire I mentioned?  Or maybe they don't realize that they're getting screamed at just because they're on private property and not for any other reason?

WTF do I know about why I've never seen a non-resident black person walking without a non-resident white escort?

I don't know man, you live there.

[Something about linux or beards or whatever the fridge we're supposed to be talking about]

[alaricljs]

Must be me then, not showering for days at a time, coming to the door in jeans and a wife-beater and my standard greeting of 'Hi, sorry you came all this way but turn around and gtf off my property.'

Almost did that when DHS showed up to do a clearance check on someone, that was a fun day.

[rknize]

Those are always fun.  Despite my best efforts, he got the job anyway.

[blert]

I think you're vastly overestimating the vocal minority that seems to hate Unity. I don't have enough experience with it to judge, but I work with folks that use vanilla Ubuntu + Unity every day and love it.

I pretty much like Unity.  It's got keyboard shortcuts, and I most use a terminal and a web browser anyway.   When I want something lighter, I just use fluxbox.

Linux is still Linux;  looks a lot like Unix.  If you want to use something else for a window manager, install it or build it.  
I do agree that having the social media stuff baked in is lost on me.  

I primarily use Ubuntu  now, but if I still wanted to manage every bit myself, I'd probably go with Arch.    Though at this point, I  prefer just to have things work.

[blert]

dwmis tiling+floating and has almost no visual distractions. I don't like Xmo, stump, awesome et al. They're like mutant ogre behemoths compared to dwm, but I can see why the people who like it like it. I just have no need for the fluff, but these days I use linux/BSD as a utility rather than a daily workstation.

OK,  you've basically convinced me to try out dwm.   I use fluxbox when I just need to work, but sounds like dwm might also fit the bill.

[rknize]

Though at this point, I  prefer just to have things work.

You're right that age has something to do with it.  Spending days installing LFS was easy when I had summers off.    I can still taste the ecstasy of having the wireless NIC on my laptop "just work" after installing dapper on it.

[sth]

OK,  you've basically convinced me to try out dwm.   I use fluxbox when I just need to work, but sounds like dwm might also fit the bill.

It's real nice. Lots of people complain that you have to edit the config file and recompile every time you want to change something but the point is that you spend a while doing that and dial in your preferences and then never reconfigure (unless an update breaks config.h). Also it's 2000 SLOC or less. I've compiled it on a 6 year old laptop and it takes all of 10 seconds.