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Author Topic: Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)  (Read 5234 times)

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Offline torrent99

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:11:10 »
So since January I've been the proud owner of a Kinesis Model 100 ( a lovely example from another GHer), which I bought to try out.
It got quite a few comments at work..."Soviet technology"...."looks like it's been sat on by a gorilla" etc

Only I've had to abandon its usage (after several weeks of usage) due to the pain it was causing. Basically it seems that although I thought I was a full touch typist I'm not quite....

The Kinesis "forces" the usage of ALL five fingers in particular quite heavy usage of the 5th finger/little finger/pinkie, where on my normal Microsoft Natural (original not the 4000 which requires a lump hammer to hit the space bar) I'd major on fingers 2,3 &4 with the thumb and pinkie only used for space & the odd modifier. This together with the slightly different hand spacing is causing quite a chunk of  (new) pain...

I've been using the Maltron training guides to try to learn the layout, but I'm still not sold yet.

So before I put the Kinesis back on the market and move on in my quest for keyboard nirvana, I'd though I'd ask the Kinesis gurus here if they have any tips?

Cheers
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fossala

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #1 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:14:55 »
I found that because of the cherry browns angles my pinkies sometimes found it hard to get over the bump. Maybe try a LF? That what I am getting in a couple of months (waiting for friend to bring it back from US).
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Offline Lanx

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:25:21 »
the first minute i got my kinesis, i macro'd "SHIFT" to the delete key, this way i use my left thumb to shift for everything. (and moved delete to the right ctrl button, i don't need 2 ctrl). What do you use pinkies so much for? are you a programmer and gotta use {}[] and other stuff?
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Offline torrent99

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #3 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:42:06 »
I did quite a few macros already. The shifts have been moved to Enter and Delete. Enter is now on R-CTRL. Delete L-SHIF etc etc. Basically tried to move the most used modifiers to the thumb.

I'm not a programmer any more, I mostly do documents, email web browsing etc  I do a LOT of ALT Tabbing.....I just find the Kinesis so cramped....and feel the main keywells need to be at an angle (aka MS natural) If I had to program on this thing I think I'd end up launching it out of a very high window!!!

An LF?
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Offline Icarium

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #4 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:42:14 »
Hm...the only pinky keys I find kind of annoying are + and - because they are so far away from my home row position. SHIFT and TAB or the like are not a problem for me but I have been touch typing for a long time.
In general I am in favor of abandoning the second pinky column and the bottom row in favor of an additional layer. I should probably try creating a layout for that but the problem with software layouts is that I use windows, linux and mac machines and you have to do everything thrice so I wanted to include it in my custom controller Kinesis, which is of course taking a lot longer than I had hoped.

If you're not really using all your fingers on your MSErgo it might be worth a try just to type the same on a Kinesis. I've had some RSI troubles myself and I found that trying to learn a new layout actually makes it much worse. I tried to switch to Programmers Dvorak but all the thinking and undoing and changing habits made me very tense. My hands felt kind of crampy as well, like they were saying "I KNOW WHERE THIS LETTER IS!! NO WAIT...." all the time.

I just decided to go back to QWERTY for now. It has gotten a little better but I think I'll wait a while until I try switching layouts again.
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I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline Icarium

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #5 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:45:35 »
Quote from: torrent99;560216
I do a LOT of ALT Tabbing
That is indeed horrible with a standard configuration on the Kinesis.

Quote from: torrent99;560216
....and feel the main keywells need to be at an angle (aka MS natural)
Many people agree and as soon as I figure out how to mount it I'll cut mine in two. ;)

Quote from: torrent99;560216
An LF?
Linear Feel, it comes with Cherry MX Red switches, which do not have the tactile feedback bump.
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I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline Input Nirvana

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #6 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 05:56:50 »
Come up with the custom Kinesis controller with Uberben, and I'll cut yours in two AND mount her up no problem :)
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Offline torrent99

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #7 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 06:26:59 »
Quote from: Icarium;560217
Hm...the only pinky keys I find kind of annoying are + and - because they are so far away from my home row position. SHIFT and TAB or the like are not a problem for me but I have been touch typing for a long time.
If you're not really using all your fingers on your MSErgo it might be worth a try just to type the same on a Kinesis. I've had some RSI troubles myself and I found that trying to learn a new layout actually makes it much worse. I tried to switch to Programmers Dvorak but all the thinking and undoing and changing habits made me very tense. My hands felt kind of crampy as well, like they were saying "I KNOW WHERE THIS LETTER IS!! NO WAIT...." all the time.

I just decided to go back to QWERTY for now. It has gotten a little better but I think I'll wait a while until I try switching layouts again.


Yes I keep trying to type 4 finger style, but that means that the shaped keywells get in the way. I know Maltron do a flat version, which might be what I need if only to cross over with...but as usual with Maltron it's the price that's the barrier!

I know what you mean about the hand tenseness and cramping due to the new layout, and I'm sure some of the pain is due to that. Very much agree on the 6th column that's the most troublesome for me.
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Offline Lanx

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #8 on: Thu, 29 March 2012, 09:14:57 »
alt tab much? just change left ctrl to tab, then just use your big thumb to "roll" into an alt tab i guess.
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Offline sordna

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #9 on: Fri, 30 March 2012, 19:21:06 »
Alt Tab is no problem, as long as you avoid using a single hand! The right way to do it is: use the right hand for alt and the left for tab.
I mapped my delete key to do tab by they way since I like tab on the thumb, but in any case, with key combos on *any* keyboard, the it's better to use both hands and not do them single-handedly.
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Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Icarium

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 16:22:07 »
Yeah, but there is only one ALT key on my Kinesis. ;)
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I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline sordna

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 31 March 2012, 16:57:15 »
I have 2 alts, 2 controls, but if you only want 1 alt, put it on the right!
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Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline Icarium

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 01 April 2012, 03:18:14 »
I occasionally need a windows key. Where did you put yours?
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I had a sig once but it's gone. It used to display an icon of a Kinesis. Just imagine that.

Offline Forsaken

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #13 on: Sun, 01 April 2012, 22:31:44 »
You can turn windows key into an alt key at any time by holding = and pressing P. To turn it back into a windows key, hold  = and press W.

This trick might be of use if you rarely need your windows key, but obviously annoying to have to reenable it and disable it afterwards of you use it frequently.
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Offline sordna

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 01:31:51 »
Quote from: Icarium;563240
I occasionally need a windows key. Where did you put yours?

I use PC/non-windows mode, which has a windows key in the keypad layer (the PrintScreen rubber key). Of course, since I added extra keys to my keyboard, I made one of the extra thumb keys be another -easily accessible- windows key.
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Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 03:11:45 »
Can you get Windows to use Ctrl + Tab to switch applications?

I'm using Mac mode (2 Command, 2 Option/Alt, 1 Ctrl; see pic in sig for locations) with Command + Tab left-hand-only switching, and works well.
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Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline torrent99

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 12:12:56 »
Thanks for the tips guys! I`m sticking with this thing, in fact I have my hands in the gorillas arse cheeks as I type this missive. One thing which I find helps is to swap A and X... This means I hardly have to use my left pinkie at all. I`m considering coming up with my own keyboard layout based on only thumbs plus the first three fingers only so that I can minimise the abuse of my hands.....


Must rest now the pain in my left hand is getting bad.
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Offline sordna

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 13:58:33 »
Get yourself some footswitches and/or add extra keys is my advice.
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Kinesis Contoured Advantage & Advantage2 LF with Cherry MX Red switches / Extra keys mod / O-ring dampening mod / Dvorak layout. ErgoDox with buzzer and LED mod.
Also: Kinesis Advantage Classic, Kinesis Advantage2, Data911 TG3, Fingerworks Touchstream LP, IBM SSK (Buckling spring), Goldtouch GTU-0077 keyboard

Offline boli

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 02 April 2012, 17:24:04 »
Quote from: torrent99;564691
I`m considering coming up with my own keyboard layout based on only thumbs plus the first three fingers only so that I can minimise the abuse of my hands......

IIRC a layout with something like this in mind has been done before. I don't remember which, but it will probably be listed on one of these:
http://deskthority.net/wiki/Keyboard_layouts
http://mtgap.bilfo.com/alternative_layouts.html
http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
Edit: or maybe I was thinking of the center colums (stretches for the index fingers). :-/
« Last Edit: Mon, 02 April 2012, 17:30:13 by boli »
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Keyboard: Kinesis Ergo Advantage (two LF editions with red Cherry switches, one regular with brown switches)
Keyboard layout: basically Colemak, with some remapping to end up with my custom Kinesis Advantage layout
Typing test profiles: typeracer.com / hi-games.net / keybr.com

Offline torrent99

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Kinesis = pain in the pinkies (for me)
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 04 April 2012, 09:20:24 »
Thanks for the links! Inspired by carpalx I'm currently (very slowly) trying out the QWKRFY layout. Apparently this has the lowest penalty score and pinkie usage so theoretically should be pretty good for me. At the current rate it'll take me years to type at anything approaching my previous rate!
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