Who here actually likes typing on linear switches? (MX Black / Red)

[Lu_e]

I've only owned/typed regularly on reds n blues, I've tried in-store blacks and browns.

I don't really care for blues, something to do with the reset point above actuation.

Browns felt kinda neat, but i'm not sure if I need/want tactile feedback.

Having had linear (reds) for the past year, I just like the smoothness without interruption that linear switches give. The light resistance of reds I could maybe do without. I really want to try blacks for a while since I seem to bottom out quite a bit. /2cents

[Tyrosh22]

I don't see bottoming out as something negative. In fact I quite enjoy bottoming out and the sound of it. :3 But floating over reds feels nice as well. I guess there is no right way to type 

[Nai_Calus]

I hate bottoming out. It's painful. I've traced that my fingertip pain comes from bottoming out my blues. I've got a board with clears incoming and I'm also considering greens so I can still have that CLACK when I want it that blues have without slamming my fingers into a metal plate over and over thundertyping.

[sethk_]

I hate bottoming out. It's painful. I've traced that my fingertip pain comes from bottoming out my blues. I've got a board with clears incoming and I'm also considering greens so I can still have that CLACK when I want it that blues have without slamming my fingers into a metal plate over and over thundertyping.

I also went from blues to clears, but I also didn't have fingerpain. I still bottomed out when I first started typing on clears, but then slowly I unconsciously stopped pushing down as hard, but when I switched from my ErgoClears to HHKB back to clears, I was hardly going pass the actuation point. It might take some time, and clears aren't all that bit heavier than blues, so thunder typing still will bottom out.

[p3lim]

I prefer browns for typing, however I play a lot of games so I use reds most of the time.

I've yet to try out clears or any other switch types (alps, topre, buckling).

[flaming_june]

I've used brown, blue, brown, black, red black (not including topre).  Without o ring on linears, they are terrible to type on.

[supersoul]

can't stand not getting feedback when i press my keys

[ander]

If you're waiting for feedback from each keypress, how can you possibly be typing anywhere near your potential? You may as well hire someone to look over your shoulder and say, "Okay, you've pressed that one... Okay, you've pressed that one..." Of course you'd be providing a job for someone, so there's always an upside.

[Oobly]

If you're waiting for feedback from each keypress, how can you possibly be typing anywhere near your potential? You may as well hire someone to look over your shoulder and say, "Okay, you've pressed that one... Okay, you've pressed that one..." Of course you'd be providing a job for someone, so there's always an upside.

Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation. It's easier to type faster and with more accuracy when you're confident that each switch has actuated.

This is one of the reasons people type with less mistakes on Browns than Reds, despite the bump being really subtle, especially when typing at high speed.

[sordna]

I use reds with audible feedback (buzzer) which makes a huge difference. For me even more than tactile feedback does.

[wyatt8740]

I've never gotten to use one (just finally got to try an MX blue two days ago, after getting mech keyboards for four years). How exactly is a red/black switch to touch? Before someone mentions it, I'm not a girl and have never gotten to poke a girl's boob. So that comparison won't work.

[ander]

Well, statistics are tricky. If you tested a bunch of people and found that more of them typed better on tactile switches than on linears, you would have simply identified which people typed that way, and that there happened to be more of them in your study than the others. It wouldn't be proof that tactile switches were "better".

I suspect there are many kinds of key-switches not because any of them are "better" than others, but because there are so many kinds of people who type.

BTW, I've come back and edited my post considerably, as it occurred to me that some of what I wrote could've been interpreted as mean-spirited. I didn't mean it that way—I was just really into the discussion—but I didn't want to leave anyone with that impression.

[Oobly]

Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation...

Your subconscious can also enable you to do incredibly subtle things—like reading this sentence without having to stop and spell out each word. Or riding a bike without  training wheels. Or not needing tactile signals to type.

Sure, many people prefer tactile switches. I like typing on Browns myself sometimes. (I'm doing it now!) I like the novelty. It's like putting some of those bumpy rubber insoles in your shoes to massage your feet.

But if I had to use them all the time, I'd find them distracting. I don't need them to type well. I type just as fast on Reds. And I type on Blacks fastest of all, because they have just enough resistance to make tactile feedback and bottoming out irrelevant. So everyone's different.

I think we all have a certain amount of attention—conscious or unconscious—to give to anything. If you're relying on tactile feedback from each keypress, you're using part of your attention to wait for each "bump" and react to it. But if you just know where each switch actuates—the way you just know what words to use when you express an entire thought—you needn't wait for anything. You just type, and you can give all of your attention to what you're doing.

Well yes and no. Both your concious and subconcious are involved when typing, muscle memory playing it's own part, too. If there is no feedback, then there is no certainty. An uncertainty slows you down as it acts as a warning and involves the concious in something that could be handled by the subconcious if there were feedback. You can of course train yourself to ignore these uncertainties, but I do think that tactile switches will be faster for the majority of people because only those who have trained themselves to type on feedbackless switches will be able to do so without the concious being more involved than with switches that have some form of feedback.

I'm not saying linears are bad. I just don't want to take the time to train something that I don't need to if I use tactile switches, so maybe it's just that I'm lazy...

This is one of the reasons people type with less mistakes on Browns than Reds, despite the bump being really subtle...

If that's true, it could just mean that typists who'd otherwise be more prone to mistakes did better with tactile reassurance. Typists who were inherently more accurate, who didn't need the reassurance, could find it of no extra benefit, or even distracting. (Some athletes do better when they get regular pep talks—while those who are self-motivated may find pep talks silly or even demeaning.)

Statistics are tricky. Even if you tested a bunch of people and found that more of them typed better on tactile switches than on linears, you would have simply identified which people were like that, and that there happened to be more of them in your study than the others. It wouldn't be proof that tactile switches were "better".

I suspect there are many kinds of key-switches not because any of them are "better" than others, but because there are so many kinds of people who type.

You may have a point.

[Surnia]

Surprisingly enough I went from browns to black and have not looked back. I've gotten used to actuation force, and end up hitting with just enough. The smoothness of broken in blacks is great!

For me though, I've noticed that despite being linear, there is a difference in the force for the first half of the press. The only thing I can attribute it to is the internal leaf spring itself is reducing the spring force by a minute amount (namely, the force increases slightly after the key actuates). This is NOT just attributable to one keyboard for me, I have both a Noppoo and a Filco that exhibit similar behaviours (both boards being considered on completely different ends of the quality scale).

[radish]

i think when dealing with linear switches for me its more a matter of not feeling the switch. i like very subtle switches because they allow me to use my hands to determine how much or little to press down on the key to actuate it. i dont  think its a matter of gaming or typing as much as its control over the dexterity of your hands. 

[Sygaldry]

Linear MX is Best MX.

Once you go [Vintage] Black, you never go back.

[slickmamba]

Linear MX is Best MX.

Once you go [Vintage] Black, there's no turning back.

can you describe the difference from regular linears? (stock red/black)

[WYW]

I love mx black so much, nice feedback and quite quiet than mx blue.

[Sygaldry]

Linear MX is Best MX.

Once you go [Vintage] Black, there's no turning back.

can you describe the difference from regular linears? (stock red/black)

They are are just much smoother and somehow feel softer when bottoming out.
with new Blacks and Reds, you can still feel a bit of friction even when lubed compared to the vintage black's perfectly buttery smooth actuation.

[snipars]

vintage MX black is by far my favourite MX switch. 
after a week or so of using them, i think i actually like typing and gaming on them as much as Topre. 
they're really easy to touch type, as in not bottoming the switches out and just tapping the keycaps, a very satisfying way to type

[ander]

Just a few more thoughts to add, then I'll stop annoying youse guys:

After seeing Blacks described here and other places, I don't think I would've been interested in trying them, much less owning some. Again, it's not intuitive to think a stiffer switch could be easier to type on.

Then I visited a PC shop that happened to have a Black-switch KB out with a bunch of others. The types of switches weren't described (in retrospect, probably a good idea!). I typed on the Blacks and thought, "Wow! What kind of KB is this?" I kept coming back to it to compare it with the rest. I decided it was so good I had to have one. Was I surprised to learn it had Blacks. I thought it was some subtle design difference in the KB itself. The Blacks didn't actually feel stiffer; the KB just felt easier to use as a unit.

Think about buckling-spring switches on classic IBMs that people rave about so much... They're stiffer than Blacks and Clears. (I have an IBM now and love it too!)

Well, there you go. Enjoyed talking about this w/you.

[jacobolus]

I typed on the Blacks and thought, "Wow! What kind of KB is this?" I kept coming back to it to compare it with the rest. I decided it was so good I had to have one. Was I surprised to learn it had Blacks. I thought it was some subtle design difference in the KB itself. The Blacks didn't actually feel stiffer; the KB just felt easier to use as a unit.

You owe it to yourself to try green complicated Alps switches sometime. :-) Or white space invader switches. Or lubed MX blacks with 62/65/67g “korean” springs in them, or with springs from MX clear switches.

MX blue, brown, and red are all on the very light side, and I suspect most people would prefer something stiffer. By contrast, I find MX black, clear, green, gray to be a bit too stiff. Model Ms are also too stiff, which is one reason that Model Fs are so appreciated: they’re a bit lighter. Something even a bit lighter (especially with a slightly shorter distance to the actuation point and slightly longer post-actuation travel distance) would be better still I think.

Have you ever tried any other varieties of mechanical keyswitches that weren’t MX or IBM model Ms?

[Fragil1ty]

I've been typing on Reds for 2 years+ and I cannot type on any other switch, I've tried switching to blacks, blues, browns, topres? and they just don't cut it, I've even got my friends to switch their boards to reds as it's just 'IN MY OPINION' the best available switch.


Wouldn't have it any other way really.

[Oobly]

It's all personal preference when it comes to switch choice, unless they're really, truly, absolutely terrible (like say, the squishy ZX Spectrum rubber button board or the Atari 400 board). Even then you may find someone who likes them for sentimental reasons.

I just can't seem to like linears. Whenever I try, I kind of get used to them, but when I try my ErgoClear boards again I breath a sigh of relief at "coming home" again. They just takes less concentration / effort / focus to type on for me.I'm still putting a 62g Blacks board together, though, simply because they fit the theme of it

[Metalmind]

I use the keyboard for typing.
I've used brown, blues, greens, reds and blacks for several time each one of them. The last kind of switches I tried was linears (red and black). Now I can say that linears are my favourite ones. I prefer reds over blacks right now.

I just realise that don't need feedback from the keys so I type faster on linears.

[Sencha]

Personally find all tactile MX switches poor. Love reds but really want to try blacks even though I don't normally like heavy switches. Sometimes reds can feel a touch too light even after using them for 5 years plus.

[Metalmind]

give a try to blacks. If you not bottom out are great. But they should be a bit lighter.

[fohat.digs]

Partially off-topic, but the high actuation point of Alps switches makes them the real touch typist's dream, in my opinion.

[Happylomo]

My QFR has reds, and so far I love them. I wanna try browns/blues, though.

[v0idtek]

I used to have reds for gaming as my first mech.
Switched to a 60% poker with clears. Still great for gaming, nicer for typing. Feels like I make fewer accidental presses.
Can't say I hated the reds, these are just slightly nicer.

[Neo.X]

I use black and red at work, because they are much quieter than other switches.

[ander]

Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation...

I think we all have a certain amount of attention—conscious [and] unconscious... If you're relying on tactile feedback from each keypress, you're using part of your [unconscious attention] to wait for each "bump" and react to it. But if you just know where each switch actuates—the way you just know what words to use when you express an entire thought—you needn't wait for anything...

Well yes and no. Both your concious and subconcious are involved when typing, muscle memory playing it's own part, too. If there is no feedback, then there is no certainty. An uncertainty slows you down as it acts as a warning and involves the concious in something that could be handled by the subconcious if there were feedback...

What "uncertainty", though? Can't you see characters appear as you type them? (I assume you're not looking at your fingers, which would defeat the purpose of touch typing.) Visual feedback is quite superior to clicks and bumps, as it confirms you've typed the right character, not just a character.  So why would you need tactile and/or aural feedback as well? Isn't that like wearing a belt and suspenders? (This thread has been going for a while now, so I may have already asked you this—if so, sorry for my senility.)

As I've probably said, I think it's fun to type on clicky/bumpy switches. I'm a musician, and to me the chatter of mechanical keys is a kind of music to accompany one's typing. That's fine. But if I found I was relying on clicks and/or bumps because I didn't trust my eyes, that'd be an insecurity I'd feel compelled to challenge.

[fohat.digs]

because I didn't trust my eyes,

or ears?

Tactility is for the muscle memory in the fingers themselves.

[Flyersfan1]

I've always enjoyed linear switches, I have a Filco with some very broken in reds, and out of all the boards I own/ have acquired recently, it's the one I find myself coming back to the most.

[chyros]

Your subconcious processes feedback really quickly. Just having a very slight, subtle reference that a switch has actuated is enough to enable you to react and thus type faster than if you are relying on a "somewhere around here" memorised positioning for switch actuation...

I think we all have a certain amount of attention—conscious [and] unconscious... If you're relying on tactile feedback from each keypress, you're using part of your [unconscious attention] to wait for each "bump" and react to it. But if you just know where each switch actuates—the way you just know what words to use when you express an entire thought—you needn't wait for anything...

Well yes and no. Both your concious and subconcious are involved when typing, muscle memory playing it's own part, too. If there is no feedback, then there is no certainty. An uncertainty slows you down as it acts as a warning and involves the concious in something that could be handled by the subconcious if there were feedback...

What "uncertainty", though? Can't you see characters appear as you type them? (I assume you're not looking at your fingers, which would defeat the purpose of touch typing.) Visual feedback is quite superior to clicks and bumps, as it confirms you've typed the right character, not just a character.  So why would you need tactile and/or aural feedback as well? Isn't that like wearing a belt and suspenders? (This thread has been going for a while now, so I may have already asked you this—if so, sorry for my senility.)

To me, tactility isn't about feedback - that's what clickiness is for. For me, tactility is about making you put in a certain amount of extra effort to press a key. Given enough force to overcome the tactility, you're sure to actuate the switch during or afterwards. With linears, you might be lulled into typing too lightly, because there's nothing to make you type strongly enough, thereby not actually actuating the switch. The clicky feedback is useful for me as I don't fully touch-type, I still look at my fingers sometimes, usually to "reset" my fingers properly, and I don't use the technique properly anyway (I don't use the right home buttons and I mainly hit the spacebar with my right index finger rather than my thumb. I also exclusively use the right shift).

[wes1099]

I like blacks for both typing and gaming. I used cherry mx blacks in my infinity keyboard for about 4 months and they are amazing. I recently put some gateron blacks in my NerD 60 and I am not sure if I like them better or worse than the MX blacks.

[cheebs]

Well, statistics are tricky. If you tested a bunch of people and found that more of them typed better on tactile switches than on linears, you would have simply identified which people typed that way, and that there happened to be more of them in your study than the others. It wouldn't be proof that tactile switches were "better".

I suspect there are many kinds of key-switches not because any of them are "better" than others, but because there are so many kinds of people who type.

On the other hand, the switches are researched, designed, manufactured and ultimately sold in bulk to various companies.  A company like American Airlines would not start taking custom orders for switch types for every different employee based on the way they type.  Believe it or not, Cherry did not design their switches for personal preference of the end-user, but instead did so to accommodate various industry applications (office, factory, POS system, etc.).  The company buying from Cherry chooses a switch that has an appropriate application (usually tactile for workstations, linear for wall-mounted keypads or other "key-punching" applications) for the task at hand, and buys thousands of keyboards with those switches.  Tactility is of no concern when you are going to press a "next order", "total" or "void" button.  You're looking directly at the key -- your finger movement will be much more direct, intentional and likely have more force behind it.  When you're touch typing and reaching to press "Q" on a QWERTY layout, however, you need a little more confirmation.  You're not looking directly at the key, your finger is not hovering over it, it's not separated from the rest of the keyboard, and it's surrounded by a cluster of other keys you don't want to press accidentally.  The tactility is there to provide a barrier of intent as well as positive feedback for the touch typist.  Sure you can press linear switches with sufficient force to solidly bottom out the key every time, so that the tactile bump is irrelevant, but why would you want to do that?  It slows you down.  The speed reduction from bottoming out every press is compensated for on a tactile switch by allowing your finger to decelerate after the bump is overcome.  There's also the case of light typing, a scenario in which tactile switches excel and linear switches simply cannot operate reliably.  Linear switches do not have this particular property, and for that reason I think they have very specific applications (extremely rapid, repeated presses such as in osu! or fighting games, or POS systems and/or industrial control systems).

think of it this way: TCP = tactile switch, UDP = linear switch   

[davkol]

Vintage ghost black master race reporting.

Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.

[mashby]

Vintage ghost black master race reporting.

Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.

Remind me what a ghost black is? Black with red spring?

[SpAmRaY]

Vintage ghost black master race reporting.

Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.

Remind me what a ghost black is? Black with red spring?

clear spring with black stem

[davkol]

Vintage ghost black master race reporting.

Surprise-surprise, I basically never release keys before actuation and rarely bottom out.

Remind me what a ghost black is? Black with red spring?

Black with red spring is red. Well, ghetto red, but that's irrelevant.

Spam is spot on.

[Bucake]

i like bottoming out on my reds. no shame.

[Ryukuxyz]

Had a DS3 with reds, it was actually really enjoyable to type on, I liked it better than my DAS Model S with Blues honestly. 

[inanis]

I am a very big fan of tactile switches. I have been using Blues at the office (I know, I know, it is LOUD) and Buckling Spring at home. In an effort to find a quieter board for the office, I bought a V60 while back with MX Blacks and hated it. I got rid of it with in a few weeks. I borrowed a friends board with Reds, and I hated that too. Then I built out an Infinity with Gateron Clears, with the springs swapped from Gateron Blacks. This I really like. I'm typing on it now and I am enjoying myself to no end. They are so smooth it is a very nice typing experience. So it took a while to find a linear switch that I liked, but I'm pretty happy now with the one I have. I might still swap out the springs one more time, we'll see. I like to experiment. Really, the only struggle with this thing now is this damn non-standard layout. I actually like the layout, but I only have one set of caps that will cover it correctly and they are DSA, firmly NOT my preference. I can't wait to get something else that will fit on it, preferably Cherry profile.

[mashby]

i like bottoming out on my reds. no shame.

I like bottoming out on Blacks. :-)

@Spamray -- thanks for the memory refresher!

[Davsmith4]

I tried reds once and it was ok. I still prefer tactile click over linear. I find they feel faster and , and odd comparison i know, like typing on a type writer. Linear feels like typing on a glorified membrane keyboard to me. Just my opinion though. I can see how people like them.

[KHAANNN]

I really wanted to do a tactile/clicky/linear trio, but I left the linears out for simplicity, otherwise It's too much work to lube the switches, build the keyboard, find the optimal keycaps, deal with issues, linears got left out, but If I had the energy, I would like to have a linear keyboard too, I get the same amount of satisfaction from all 3 of them, all differently

Although, for a bottom out typist, someone who bottoms out hard, the clear/tactile switches also become linear, it's only tactile when you slow down

Sometimes I click the modifiers repeatedly/slowly while reading something etc., just to have fun, it's not too much fun with tactile, it gets a bit irritating, but it's really fun with linears, since the switches just move freely

This thread made me re-consider the 3rd/linear keyboard I was thinking about, but 3 keyboards is just too much, I will try to make due with my tactile/clicky duo

[pr0ximity]

I am a very big fan of tactile switches. I have been using Blues at the office (I know, I know, it is LOUD) and Buckling Spring at home. In an effort to find a quieter board for the office, I bought a V60 while back with MX Blacks and hated it. I got rid of it with in a few weeks. I borrowed a friends board with Reds, and I hated that too. Then I built out an Infinity with Gateron Clears, with the springs swapped from Gateron Blacks. This I really like. I'm typing on it now and I am enjoying myself to no end. They are so smooth it is a very nice typing experience. So it took a while to find a linear switch that I liked, but I'm pretty happy now with the one I have. I might still swap out the springs one more time, we'll see. I like to experiment. Really, the only struggle with this thing now is this damn non-standard layout. I actually like the layout, but I only have one set of caps that will cover it correctly and they are DSA, firmly NOT my preference. I can't wait to get something else that will fit on it, preferably Cherry profile.

This makes me very excited. Getting ready to put 62g springs in Gateron Blacks on my Majestouch.

[KHAANNN]

I am a very big fan of tactile switches. I have been using Blues at the office (I know, I know, it is LOUD) and Buckling Spring at home. In an effort to find a quieter board for the office, I bought a V60 while back with MX Blacks and hated it. I got rid of it with in a few weeks. I borrowed a friends board with Reds, and I hated that too. Then I built out an Infinity with Gateron Clears, with the springs swapped from Gateron Blacks. This I really like. I'm typing on it now and I am enjoying myself to no end. They are so smooth it is a very nice typing experience. So it took a while to find a linear switch that I liked, but I'm pretty happy now with the one I have. I might still swap out the springs one more time, we'll see. I like to experiment. Really, the only struggle with this thing now is this damn non-standard layout. I actually like the layout, but I only have one set of caps that will cover it correctly and they are DSA, firmly NOT my preference. I can't wait to get something else that will fit on it, preferably Cherry profile.

I learned that you don't look for keycaps for your keyboards, you look for keyboards for your keysets, the hard way

I'm guessing that keyset is Granite, otherwise even most DSA sets don't have the 1u \| - or the 1.5u Delete, definitely not together

Indeed cherry switches are very annoying/scratchy, even after lubing them with krytox they are scratchy, only silicone was able to tame them from my experience, they also feel very clumsy and cheap in their default/raw forms

[Jujucohn]

I have tried reds for a short amount of time and blacks on a switch tester. Using reds was fine and I didn't feel like not having the tactile bumb/sound made it worse (just different). I have also used gateron clears (35g linear) and I can say that those were really nice. The gaterons were smoother that the reds and I liked how light they were.