Pseudo-medical advice: Mechanical vs. split keyboard

[errantlinguist]

Hello all,

I'm very new to this forum, although I've read quite a bit on the site already. I'm unfortunately not that much of a keyboard connoisseur, but I do love the feel of many mechanical keyboards (including the good old Model M, and also those old Apple IIe keyboards). However, I'm currently using a mixture of very crappy keyboards, and have been searching desperately for The Keyboard, after writing my thesis on a crappy cheap SpeedLink "Snappy" did a real number to my hands. It's not bad enough to warrant seeing an actual doctor (the pain goes away when not using the computer, or at least when using a good keyboard), but I'd like some advice on choosing the best keyboard which is available to me, although similar topics have been beaten to death on these forums already:

In my budget range, it seems I can either buy a split keyboard with non-mechanical keys (pretty much only the Kinesis Freestyle/Maxim, I believe) or a nice, "basic" non-split keyboard with mechanical keys (e.g. Das Keyboard or similar). I have a bit of wrist pain, but the main thing that made me think "I really need a good keyboard" is sore finger joints from this SpeedLink keyboard from Hell, especially the 1st and 2nd joints from the palm. I notice that when I type on my (good but small) ThinkPad keyboard, my fingers don't seem to hurt so much, but my wrists still do... and when I type on e.g. a (big, split and ****ty) Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000, my wrists don't hurt, but my fingers feel like they're going to fall off. So, the question is: which would help more overall-- getting a nice-ish split keyboard without mechanical keys, or getting a nice non-split mechanical keyboard? Would a bigger non-split keyboard be just as good for my wrists as a split keyboard?

Thanks for any help, even if it's just pointing me to an older related thread.

P.S. if anyone can point me to where people can easily get good keyboards in or sent to continental Europe, I'd be very grateful: There seems to be a dearth of such companies...

[Quarzac]

There are a couple split boards that you could get for a bit cheaper. I think Absyrd had a Chicony 7000 that he was trying to sell a while back, which is split like the Microsoft ergo 7000 and uses White Alps. He might still have it.

[Lanx]

thread will probably be moved to ergo section.
but i'll just make it super easy for you, if you even think of "i want a split ergo board, maybe or just a mech board?"

just go get a kinesis.

want a lengthier response? check my sig where i make 2 versions of a frankenstein msergo 4k, and ultimately just shelved them for a kinesis (kinesis is NOT the best imo, but is the best mass produced). In short i'm just gonna convince you to go and get a kinesis, seems like you need the "push". money problems? i got 4 classic kinesis on ebay, each for 50ish, all are in good condition, one i gave away, one is in the closet (just in case) one is cut in half waiting for me to mod and the other is a modded daily driver. Of course this took a span of 1 year to find on ebay. (i just kept on buying them when they were at the 50ish price point)
however if you want the newer black ones or with win/mac key and usb, yea, your gonna pay a pretty penny of at least 150ish, imo.

there is the trulyergonomic to consider, but i have no opinion on it. (besides a bad opinion)

tldr:buy a kinesis, visit the ergo section.

[errantlinguist]

Yeah, the Kinesis Advantage looks like a good idea, even if it's a bit "exotic" for my tastes, but I was told that my employer would gladly buy me a "reasonably-priced" keyboard; I don't think €150-€300 for a Kinesis Advantage counts as "reasonably-priced". So basically I pony up the cash myself (which is quite a lot for myself), or find something which has a price tag which is slightly less shocking...

[Netdewt]

Kinesis Advantage is the one everyone raves about I want one but they are $250.

[laffindude]

Buying a new keyboard is nice, but you do want to adjust your posture first. That's probably what caused the pain to begin with. Don't put off until the damage becomes more permanent.

[mkawa]

buy a keyboard because keyboards are cool and you enjoy typing. i'm not convinced that input device changes do much at all to help with injuries. rest, physical therapy, major posture and habit changes, etc. help with injuries.

also, too often i hear "medical intervention is expensive blah blah blah" when people are developing posture and RSI related injuries, but then they go do half-assed things like changing input and output devices, which honestly costs just about as much, all while being mostly ineffective.

tl;dr, geekhack is not a doctor. if you're in pain, please see a doctor.

[Larken]

Like several of the posters have said, see a doctor for the pain. Switching to a good keyboard might help, but its definitely not a cure all.

On another note, I did have problems with my wrists hurting a year or 2 back from the constant use my of computer, and it has gone away since I switched to a mechanical keyboard. But that's only half the story. Just changing a keyboard doesn't automatically make the pain go away; the key was to get a keyboard/wristpad or whatever that can help you adjust your posture properly when typing or using your computer in general. You might need to experiment around with different setups to find something that is actually effective, because ergonomics are relatively subjective; what works for one person might not work for another. For example, I used a wristpad from fellowes for a while, which improved things somewhat, but was too high for me, there were still pain in my wrists after extended usage. I then ponied up for a lower, ducky wristpad, and it has served me well ever since.

[hoggy]

Listen to mkawa

Get some advice from a professional who you trust to give you the best advice.  Then follow it.  

You've probably spent years getting yourself into this position, not just a few weeks.  You're unlikely to be able to fix it with a little 'tweak'.

Imagine what would happen if the problem doesn't go away.  Will you change your job so you don't have to work on a computer?

[Lanx]

not to mention, while kinesis is great, it takes a lot of dedication, since it is not a "normal" keyboard. Dedication, like if you replace it as your daily driver, you will be at best half speed for a while, bang on many things while you create lots of typos. imo if you get a kinesis, you have to put your current keyboard away and only work with the kinesis.

[errantlinguist]

Okay, so the question is then: how do I find a medical professional who knows about this stuff?-- in 27 years, I've visited a handful of good doctors, and all of them happen to be at least ~2,000km away, and none of them did anything with ergonomics. I have no idea how to find a good doctor, let alone one who deals with typing issues.

EDIT: When I say "a handful of good doctors", I really mean that I know with my luck, there is a 99% percent probability that a doctor I seek out will tell me "sit up straight, take breaks, use an ergonomic keyboard" and then shoo me away. I'm not stupid; I know basic typing habits and 99% of the time adhere to them (although I admit I am trying to improve them at the moment; things like hunching over the keyboard occasionally). The "ergonomic keyboard" point is also stupid, because like I just explained, the MS4000 keyboard drives me insane because of the stupid keys. I don't know what I'm doing wrong apart from that; that's why I'm seeing a stupid doctor.

...and to to argue that changing input devices CAN alleviate pain, try typing on a crappy keyboard on which you actually have to mash the keys because they're so unresponsive that without full force the keystrokes won't always register. Yes, your fingers will start to hurt. If not, you're either the Terminator or on painkillers.

[Tony]

If I were you, I would choose mechanical keyboard. I have tried normal split and ergo keyboard, but it takes a lot of space on the table and the key feel is the same crappy.

[Java Doc]

I am a doctor, but this is not considered true "medical advice."

Yes, you know the basics, and those continue to be the most important factors. Second, I'd recommend sleeping with wrist braces on at night time. Most people have a tendency to sleep with their wrists curled, and this causes problems during the day. The braces can be annoying to get used to, but they've saved quite a few people from needing carpal tunnel surgery.

[Lanx]

your just gonna have to figure stuff out (everyone here will help out of course) but chiropractors are worthless, they don't know ergo, if they do, they know stupid ergo, heck they aren't even real doctors. chiro's were worthless to me, maybe a joint specialist? i've figured out my own solution, i'm not in pain (only when i travel and use my netbook for a few hours), but really did you check my sig? i modded 2 ergo 4000, they are not ergonomic. The "Structure of the ergo 4k" Is absolutely fantastic, but the keys are junk, too much force to activate (which is why you're feeling pain).

just get a kinesis throw out your current keyboards and force yourself to work on it.

[Java Doc]

I must have missed the part where anyone even mentioned a chiropractor. Chiro's are real doctors, just not "medical doctors." They know ergonomics for spine related activities, just not as much for other joints. Not sure where the hate is coming from, but at least know your facts.

[errantlinguist]

Hey, even computer scientists can be doctors

I think talk about chiropractors started with the recommendation to see a doctor about potential (serious) RSI-related problems (which personally I hope I'm nipping in the bud, since at the moment that my pain really isn't anything very serious in ANY sense of the word). The hate is coming from what I believe is more or less fact that medical professionals generally cannot reliably treat non-acute problems. It sucks, but I've had a lot of personal experiences to that, and I've heard others talk a lot of it too. As long as your problems are in the "annoying, but endurable" category, doctors are basically a waste of time and money. Sad but true.

How is it that someone can have an open-heart procedure done in a few hours, but it takes years to figure out why e.g. my hip hurts on and off after falling during a hike in 2009 yet I didn't break/tear/twist anything yet without any success. This is off-topic for geekhack, but is nevertheless basically a roundabout way of explaining part of the reason why people like myself search out a good keyboard before entering the dark abyss of the medical system.

Lanx, your keyboards look rather interesting, as I agree that the MS4000 has a great overall layout: If only that keyboard had keys which didn't actually build up your finger muscles because you have to push so hard (especially e.g. Ctrl, Alt, space)

[Java Doc]

My comment and question was directed at Lanx, and the chiropractor comment.

As for your other question. Acute coronary syndrome is an easy to diagnose condition, and requires a simple plumbing fix to restore blood flow. Pain, on the other hand, is a very subjective condition. Chronic pain is very poorly understood as it has no definite etiology. In other words, is your pain from bony injury, tendinous injury, ligamentous injury, muscular injury, RSD, or simply your perception of pain that is secondary to an injury that isn't even present any more.

Any way, I'd still recommend the wrist splints at night in addition to a comfortable keyboard.

[mkawa]

a number of my relatives are doctors so i'll just relay what they've told me. too often visits about persistent issues are of the form:

"doc, my X hurts when I Y"

"ok, well i'm not 100% sure why but given what can or usually causes X, stop doing Y for N months, start strengthening this part of your body, maybe try implementing these other drastic lifestyle changes"

"... can't you just give me a pill or operate or something?"

":/"

also, i'm doubly guilty of these things because i treat all doctors like family and hence do my best to completely ignore everything they say.

[laffindude]

Stretching and exercise really helped my wrist so I'd recommend trying that in addition to Java Doc's recommendations. Surprised no one brought up trackballs. That could eliminate some unnecessary wrist motions.

[urbanus]

So, the question is: which would help more overall-- getting a nice-ish split keyboard without mechanical keys, or getting a nice non-split mechanical keyboard? Would a bigger non-split keyboard be just as good for my wrists as a split keyboard?

I think a split keyboard might be a good solution, depending on your body shape and posture, but they don't work for me personally.  With regular keyboards I can place the keyboard in front of me, reach forward, and rest my fingers on the home keys quite comfortably.  With a split keyboard I actually have to stick my elbows out to get my hands at the right angle.  But that's just me: your experience might differ.

Another use (abuse?) of the term "ergonomic" is for variably-weighted keyswitches, such as the Topre Realforce, where there are softer keys under the ring and pinkie fingers, which are weaker.  Perhaps a different or softer keyswitch would help you.

It's difficult to give "the answer" because keyboards are such a personal thing.  It would be best if you could find friends or acquaintances who would be willing to lend you boards, for at least a week at a time, so you can try out some different alternatives.  I know that might not be practical.

[luckynet]

yo java doc, r u from java island?? arek ndi?

[Larken]

Seeing a doctor is to help you with the pain. Like you've already said, medical professionals are hardly experts in ergonomics.

Just a note; just because a keyboard has an ergonomic label on it, doesn't mean that it is actually ergonomically suitable for you. Adjusting your posture consciously might work for a while, but it is hardly possible to keep up the adjustment all the time. What you should do is to adjust your environment (wristpad to alleviate wrists bending backwards, a suitable table height, a mechanical keyboard, distance to screen etc etc), to make yourself be able to sustain the correct posture without even trying. Getting a mechanical keyboard may help, but its never the full story.

With that said, I recommend getting the mechanical keyboard. The feel of the switches are amazing to type with at any rate, and it doesn't seem that your problems haven't actually escalated to a point where you require painkillers yet. p.s. wrists hurting when typing on small keyboards such as the ones on laptops are common. try out a full sized  board, it'd probably help.

[Java Doc]

yo java doc, r u from java island?? arek ndi?

Nope, good ol' USA. Just part of the name since I often to seem to have more coffee flowing through me than any thing else.

[errantlinguist]

mkawa: I actually have the exact opposite problem: Doctors always seem to throw pills at me, trying to get me out of their office as quickly as possible, and I often either never fill the prescription or outright deny them ("I don't want painkillers for my hip; I want to know why the hell it hurts in the first place so I can stop it").

Java Doc: I can understand how frustrating it can be even for doctors: in order to really diagnose something so subtle, I'm guessing (from a scientific experimental perspective) the patient would have to be observed constantly for months to years. However, it sadly doesn't keep the patient from being a bit pissed off when you he e.g. needs surgery, and then the doctor says something like "looks like you had X blocking your airway; no wonder the antihistamines didn't work". WHY NOT DO THE OPERATION YEARS AGO AND SAVE ME 1000'S MG OF UNNEEDED ANTIHISTAMINES!??

laffindude: Already got a Kensington Expert Mouse for almost 2 years; I'm never going to buy a mouse ever again

urbanus: I have strangely a lack of friends obsessed with keyboards enough to try many interesting types, so no help there. It is a bit sad, though, when you prefer to type on your 14" ThinkPad laptop keyboard rather than a full-size one, simply because the keys are built so much better... but nevertheless, my wrists start to hurt with nearly all "normal" non-split rubber-dome keyboards (but I have average-ish-sized hands)... wish I had e.g. a Model M to try out, to see if bigger non-splits would be more comfortable.

[mkawa]

what follows the ":/" is usually the writing of a scrip or a specialist referral (my relatives tend to be internists, go figure). anyway, we're way OT. no one knows what input device will stop your pain. if you want, you can buy a bunch and see if anything works. with any luck, you'll discover the joy of keyboards and be able to focus on them instead of your hip pain.

ps, i'm not being facetious here. that's what i do because i'm stubborn and don't like doctors either.

[errantlinguist]

I feel like some old curmudgeon *****ing about hurting body parts as a pastime. Looks like we'll be gettin' another thunderstorm: My knees be hurtin' again...

[mkawa]

yep i've got a bad knee too. getting old sucks