Author Topic: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded? (Read 5350 times)

skriefal · « **on:** Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:02:50 »

They certainly don't seem to be double-shot molded. I'm guessing that IBM used a dye impregnation process. Whatever it is, the keys seem to hold up to use very well...

ricercar · « **Reply #1 on:** Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:31:35 »

i'd be Ok to cut an extra key if someone would tell me what we're trying to find out?

huha · « **Reply #2 on:** Mon, 29 June 2009, 21:49:29 »

Isn't there already some information available on IBM's keycap printing process?

-huha

sandy55 · « **Reply #3 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:26:22 »

I'm 100% sure that caps of IBM Model M/F are dye sublimation, not double shot molded.
See inner side of caps and you see it's not double shot molded.

itlnstln · « **Reply #4 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:34:28 »

Quote from: ripster;100457

Too bad though, those Double Shot keys on my Selectric are beautiful things to Behold!! Better than Veronica Belmont. Well, maybe not.

I'll pass on an obvious dirty remark here.

Tempting, so tempting.

I'm 30. I need to be more mature than that.

o2dazone · « **Reply #5 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:35:22 »

Quote from: itlnstln;100458

I'm 30. I need to be more mature than that.

says who

itlnstln · « **Reply #6 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 09:37:29 »

Quote from: o2dazone;100459

says who

DON'T TEMPT ME!

Must think pure thoughts.

Mercen_505 · « **Reply #7 on:** Wed, 01 July 2009, 12:39:12 »

Quote

I'm 30. I need to be more mature than that.

Maturity is a state of mind. Feel free to be a dirty, filthy, vile bastard... like me

microsoft windows · « **Reply #8 on:** Thu, 02 July 2009, 20:19:36 »

Has someone cut up a key-cap yet? I wish I could to find out but I'm already two short...

keyb_gr · « **Reply #9 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 07:12:53 »

I posted some macro shots of various Cherry keycaps over here.

microsoft windows · « **Reply #10 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 11:44:34 »

I have also noticed differences between Unicomp keycaps and IBM/Lexmark keycaps. With IBM and Lexmark, the Alt keys and the System Request function were printed in green, and the functions on the numpad were printed in brown. However, I believe this was eliminated by the time Unicomp bought the clicky keyboard design. Maybe the letters/functions on the keycaps were also applied differently. Due to those variations, would you be able to tell some information on the keycap you chop up (like Unicomp vs IBM, etc.)?

keyb_gr · « **Reply #11 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 15:40:18 »

I'd guess dye sublimation is more practical for those multi-colored keys. Plus I don't remember anyone complaining about the lettering wearing off, so in the end, who cares (Geekhack folks excepted)?

An extra article on keycaps - why not. I already have a quick rundown of common labeling methods and some other stuff in "Basics on keyboard internals".

lowpoly · « **Reply #12 on:** Fri, 03 July 2009, 17:07:21 »

The Model M keycaps may be too thin for double shot casting.

huha · « **Reply #13 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 06:45:50 »

Quote from: ripster;100955

I'll cut up one. I asked Ricercar to toss in an extra from his batch. I'm certain it'll look like the dye goes down a few microns.

No need to cut up one, the Japanese already did that.

-huha

microsoft windows · « **Reply #14 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 07:25:17 »

I hate those cheesy keyboards with the letters that wear off so fast. The crappiest ones I ever used are those white Apple keyboards (I call them the Crapplekeys) and those newer black Dell keyboards. On the Dell's, the letters wore off VERY fast and the keys stuck on most after 3-4 years of use. I disassembled one to see why the keys stuck and it turned out that there was no steel plate reënforcing the keys and there were no metal brackets on ANY key except for the spacebars. I swear those pieces of **** weighed as much as one of those two-dimensional sixteenth-pounders McDonalds sells.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #15 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 11:11:06 »

Quote from: ripster;101049

Durable, sharp looking, good feeling, keys are worth the extra pennies.

Full ACK there.

Oh, and my IBM keytops don't look like they're two-shot molded, none of them. Could be they're really too thin for that.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #16 on:** Sat, 04 July 2009, 11:37:46 »

Quote from: ripster;101154

Dual shot doesn't seem to be perfect either. Check the yellowing on this Space Cadet. They look to be dual shot on top, surface lettered on front.

Seems like they used ABS plastic then. With these big keys, they could afford a bit more wear back then...

DesktopJinx · « **Reply #17 on:** Wed, 08 July 2009, 11:59:17 »

Excellent work.

A double-shot mold process means a unique physical mold for each key, doesn't it? Considering the number of variations (locales and specializations) IBM had, and the ridiculous number of keyboards they built, a printing process makes a lot more sense than a molding process.

itlnstln · « **Reply #18 on:** Wed, 08 July 2009, 13:19:34 »

Quote from: DesktopJinx;101745

Excellent work.

A double-shot mold process means a unique physical mold for each key, doesn't it? Considering the number of variations (locales and specializations) IBM had, and the ridiculous number of keyboards they built, a printing process makes a lot more sense than a molding process.

Perhaps. That would be one way to do it. I would think they have one mold for the overall key, and the "punch" the legend while the plastic is still a little soft.

talis · « **Reply #19 on:** Wed, 08 July 2009, 16:20:34 »

I would assume for double shot keys that there would be a separate, unique cavity for each key, but they would all be in the same tool. That way they would be able to shoot a full set of keyboard keys in a single go.

DesktopJinx · « **Reply #20 on:** Wed, 08 July 2009, 18:08:35 »

Regardless of how you arrange them, injecting plastic to expose letter shapes will require unique tooling for each letter shape. If you're only making one nationality and one style of keyboard in large volume, you could justify the tool set... but support many languages and specialty keyboards and it quickly gets out of hand. How is such tooling made and managed? I have to think that the mastering and manufacturing process for thermostatic printing is less tooling-intensive, might even be like digital prepress, better suited to more flexible runs and product variations.

o2dazone · « **Reply #21 on:** Wed, 08 July 2009, 18:57:40 »

Quote from: ripster;101808

Don't worry, this is for SCIENCE!

Show Image

No, no, I'll do ANYTHING. I'm a M, I SUBLIMATE!

Show Image

Odd - not seeing much from this angle - are these just surface printed? Let's try this:

Show Image

Thats better. I'm not sure how big a micron is but you can see the ink goes down a teensy little bit. Would take a LONG TIME to wear away that lettering.

That was fun, I wanna chop up some more keys.

Yeah, but does it blend?

timw4mail · « **Reply #22 on:** Wed, 08 July 2009, 19:02:29 »

Quote from: ripster;101822

LOL - my wife is already wondering what kitchen implement I'll take down to the basement.

Maybe the Logitech.

So...you do have another 'M' key, right?

alpslover · « **Reply #23 on:** Fri, 10 July 2009, 10:06:52 »

Quote from: ripster;101808

Thats better. I'm not sure how big a micron is but you can see the ink goes down a teensy little bit. Would take a LONG TIME to wear away that lettering.

nice pics. a micron is a thousandth of a millimeter. rough ballpark, the dye is inseminated at least a good 50 microns.

i don't think i've ever seen an m with lettering worn from normal use.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #24 on:** Fri, 10 July 2009, 14:25:56 »

Quote from: ripster;101986

It happens. Click pic for details.

Show Image

[Link]

Pic no workee, so I put some text there.

Quote

Not an M but 50 microns isn't THAT much.

Depends on the material... This transcriptionist's NMB seems to use bog standard ABS, for the M it should be PBT or something comparable, tough stuff in any case.
Metal keys ftw. :D

EDIT: Oh btw, I see that I have a lot of keycap stuff in the Basics on Keyboard Internals wiki now. Might be worth moving to a dedicated article after all...

timw4mail · « **Reply #25 on:** Fri, 10 July 2009, 18:31:05 »

Quote from: ripster;102040

I think so. Other than some hard to translate Asian sites there's not much info out there on keys.

If you get it started I have LOTS of IBM/Filco/Unicomp pics already uploaded to the forum - you or I can just link to them and use as illustrations to your text. You seem to have quite a few Cherry pics yourself.

Someone should figure out what font the Cherry keyboards use.

Cherry brand keyboards, or keyboards with Cherry switches?

cchan · « **Reply #26 on:** Sat, 11 July 2009, 10:03:59 »

Filco doesn't use italic Arial... Filco lowercase a's don't have the horizontal stroke above the loop like arial italic does. Filco looks more like Century Gothic italic.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #27 on:** Sat, 11 July 2009, 16:17:04 »

Quote from: ripster;102089

I'm a little suspicious about Logitech. My $9.99 special. Ugh, that "decal" look.

Sure wears well though. My son banged them up for years and the WASD letters are shiny but lettering perfect.

I'd guess the "decal" is some wear-resistant coating over the lettering then. One could also extend it over the whole keytop but probably not in a $9.99 board.

timw4mail · « **Reply #28 on:** Mon, 27 July 2009, 21:30:39 »

Does the NeXT keyboard even have mechanical switches?

JBert · « **Reply #29 on:** Tue, 28 July 2009, 12:39:00 »

These close-up pictures made me look at my IBM (likely Lexmark) KB-8923 because the windows-keys have the same blurry/grey appearance. I'm not sure, but it seems as if some keys on these keyboards are dyed (mostly characters and number rows) whereas some rarely-used keys seem to be laser etched.

Maybe this one was built during a process change? (Can't add pictures right now, I don't have a camera available ATM.)

keyb_gr · « **Reply #30 on:** Tue, 28 July 2009, 13:02:09 »

Quote from: JBert;105065

These close-up pictures made me look at my IBM (likely Lexmark) KB-8923 because the windows-keys have the same blurry/grey appearance. I'm not sure, but it seems as if some keys on these keyboards are dyed (mostly characters and number rows) whereas some rarely-used keys seem to be laser etched.

Maybe this one was built during a process change? (Can't add pictures right now, I don't have a camera available ATM.)

Possibly similar to the lettering on this one.

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Author Topic: Are ALL IBM keycaps Double Shot Molded? (Read 5350 times)